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Lit The EU Apocrypha - Using New Material to Expand the Expanded Universe

Discussion in 'Literature' started by blackmyron, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    I'm not sure it's a "cop out" so much as probably the best way to actually fit that film into Legends. I'm pretty sure that stuff like freeing Chewie, winning the Falcon etc is just not going to match up with the Legends version. It has nothing to do with the quality of the film itself, and Luke feeling it was bad in 'Shadows of Mindor' would just be an in-joke to the fans.

    Luke felt the film was overly theatrical and Lord Shadowspawn reminded him of scenes from 'Han Solo and the Pirates of Kessel'. If you've seen the trailers for Solo and its villain, and seen pictures of Lord Shadowspawn from the EU, it's bizarre how well it matches up.

    I'm not saying all Disney films should be classified as holofilms, but when there's already a Legends 'Han Solo and the Pirates of Kessel', why not use it? I'd even say the in-universe Crimson Empire 3 was actually the comic, but for timeline reasons (the holofilm Crimson Empire 3 came out in the Clone Wars), this can't be done.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
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  2. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I am presently assuming, until I see the film, that Solo does not own the Falcon by the films end and returns it, and the Kessel Run if shown corresponds to various Kessels and thus Runs. The Maw Cluster was massive in Legends, after all.

    Just as an aside.


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  3. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2012
    Speaking of the Maw, the tentacles in the trailer are obviously Abeloth.
     
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  4. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Hmm, and maybe we can speculate that presumably Han's relationship with Emilia Clarke's character ends so badly that he has total amnesia about the events of the movie, and Chewie and Lando, realizing Han has memory loss, act like they meet him for the first time later on in the Han Solo Trilogy. Oh and Chewie is enslaved again. :p
     
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  5. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I find the continuing survival of any separatist holdouts to be unlikely. The empire's attitude towards them was one of unremitting hostility-shown most prominently in how the empire dealt with Gizor Dellso.

    Some may have survived into the new republic era perhaps out of sheer luck or imperial indifference but their best interests would have been served by joining the NR.
     
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  6. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    The Corporate sector was fundamentally the CIS Remnant beneath the surface.

    EDIT: It even acts like it. Sides with the Empire as long as it has to, allows the Rebels to start off within its own territory before it idolises Luke, but promptly goes independent. Sides with a warlord but also allows the Rebellion to oppose the Dark Empire from within its borders. Merrily hands over its Jedi in the Vong war, and secedes from the Alliance and only dedicates to the Confederation after Centerpoint is rebuilt.

    Consistently pro independent, anti -Jedi, and anti-Palpatine.

    Separatists from Murkhana fled there but as soon as they can they jump the Confederacy ship to save themselves. The last two years of the Clone Wars it cozies up to Palpatine’s new Empire.

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    Last edited: May 16, 2018 at 8:15 AM
  7. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    Is it possible that "Ragnos" used the World Between Worlds to tattoo Exar and Ulic?
     
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  8. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    I'd rather not bring WBW into Legends. Besides, Ragnos' ghost has already been confirmed to survive all the way up to the Jedi Academy PC game in 14 ABY, so he was around during the Great Sith War.
     
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  9. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    Yeah but it wasn't a ghost in the comics. It was a magic, interactive message "carried down through the centuries" from the Dark Lord who reigned during the period "when the Sith people were being hunted to extinction by the Jedi Knights and the armies of the Republic".

    The "ghost of Ragnos" stuff is a retcon, ultimately. Especially since Ragnos is most assuredly *not* the reigning Dark Lord in the aftermath of the Great Hyperspace War.

    But most of the stuff in early TotJ was retconned by GAotS, to be honest. Pretty much everything about Naga Sadow, for one.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018 at 12:11 PM
  10. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    It seemed to me that the amulets opened a portal through time and space to a battle that occured during the Sith Holocaust.

    I think Veitch and Anderson had conflcting ideas, which resulted in all kinds of confusing things and retcons.
     
  11. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    But then that would mean the Sith Lord who marked Ulic and Exar was... Lord Vitiate! :eek:

    Sigh, this character no one ever heard of before Bioware's MMO is suddenly behind everything. He even went back in time and mind-tricked Veitch and Anderson to write TOTJ in a way that it was obvious the great Sith Emperor Vitiate/Tenebrae/Valkorion was behind the Great Sith War too. [face_sigh]
     
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  12. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    Heh. I think we did actually forward that as a possible re-retcon back when information on TOR was first coming out.
     
  13. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    I say it's one of these three possibilities:

    A. Ragnos possessed someone and had a second reign as Dark Lord.
    B. Shar Dakhan.
    C. Vitiate.
     
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  14. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I prefer B.

    Dakhan needs more love. He was Dark Lord after Sadow and Kressh but before Vitiate ate them all.


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  15. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I’m going on with this further thanks to some discussions with tech.

    The amulets end up in Nadd’s possession, who went to Asha Ree and Yavin 4. He found the Holocron of Adas, and, presumably the amulets then.

    Dakhan left the Holocron of Adas on Asha Ree, and we do not have any notable finds suggested by Nadd during his time. It’s much more likely that he found the Holocron and paired amulets together - which makes it almost certain that Dakhan recorded the message when his kind were being struck down by genocide.


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  16. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 3, 2013
    One distinction between the CSA and CIS that just occurred to me though, and might be worth keeping in mind - the former is also pretty consistently humanocentric, isn't it? Not that much as a matter of outright official policy, IIRC, but also not the most comfortable bedfellows with a bunch of Koorivars and Gossams and so forth.
     
  17. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2012
    Well, there was Spray/Odumin, but I guess he was an undercover investigator.
     
  18. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    He explicitly says that his nonhuman status is one reason why he prefers to stay in the shadows most of the time.

    Edit: That said, given that he's explicitly working towards internal reform - and humanocentrism is pretty dead as an official ideology even in the Remnant by the second decade after Endor - it does occur to me that the CSA could potentially work well as a subsumer for the New Separatist Union/United Separatists should they collapse then.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018 at 6:12 AM
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  19. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    It really depends on how much influence the Imperial corporations that occupied the sector had - the ones Palpatine imposes and created the Authority. Presumably a great deal when we went to the CSA with Han, but less after Palpatine falls, what with the sector going independent.


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  20. blackmyron

    blackmyron Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Oh, I'm not suggesting that there were any real Separatist holdouts. I'm suggesting that when the Empire disintegrates, many of the former Separatist worlds - who probably hate the Republic (old or new) as much as they hate the Empire - would strike out on their own, even trying to build back up the original dream (minus manipulating Sith Lords).

    ... of course, there would be an even deeper irony if the Emperor Reborn secretly helped out the rebirth of the Separatists to limit the power and growth of the NR.

    I would guess that they would likely be the largest of the independent powers in the Borderlands, although probably fared poorly during Thrawn's initial invasion. (And then again in the YV invasion...)
     
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  21. SheaHublin

    SheaHublin Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2008
    His ghost seems to be limited to Korriban only, as the amulet messages are either recordings or time-portal generators. Every other time we see his ghost is on Korriban, and more specifically in the Valley near his Tomb. His appearance before Sadow and Kressh, his appearance before Plagueis from Book of Sith, from Jedi Academy, etc. Nadd is really the only Sith whose spirit was able to transcend a fixed geographic/planetary location.

    Indeed, it being Ragnos is all a retcon. Just look at the hybrid Sith/Human appearance from most sources and compare it to the original chalky, gaunt towering Humanoid from DLotS.



    Not "Sith Holocaust" (unless that's a newer term from ToR?), but Fall of the Sith Empire, which originated in Tales of the Jedi and was the exact term that was even given its own Encyclopedia entry. It took around 10 years (in-Universe) to fully play out, too.

    I do favor the "time portal" interpretation of the amulets, btw :)

    It's not Vitiate in the amulet "recordings" per other evidence, though if nothing else that being him would serve to explain the visual dis-similarity between that depiction and all of the other depictions of Ragnos. Unless Ragnos looked really different in life than he did in death...

    But if it were Vitiate, it would be the only depiction of his REAL, original body!

    Option D. is that it really depicts Ludo Kressh. Sadow was said to have been "exiled by his Dark Lord; branded a criminal by the Republic" in the opening of DLotS, and the amulet specifically shows "the reigning Dark Lord". The amulet figure is never outright stated to be the same guy who exiled Sadow, but it does serve as a nice bookend to have it be the same guy, which would make it Kressh. For all we know, that may have been the original, pre-Ragnos intent...

    But no, it isn't Kressh (or is it?). It's explicitly stated in multiple sources to be Ragnos. The images in the amulets don't match the one description we do have of Shar Dakhan, nor do the eyes really seem to match those of Vitiates that were said to be pure black. But it also doesn't match Ragnos' other depictions, unless it only depicts Ragnos in life, and his mummified form was greatly different, which is possible. Ragnos has always been hinted at as having died of "old age" which, combined with the known ravages of the Dark Side, would serve to explain the fairly drawn and withered form seen on his ghost, while the amulets depict him much healthier in life.

    "Acting Dark Lord" only, which was a really dumb thing for the Guide to have done. It introduced a whole series of continuity snarls that otherwise wouldn't need to be explained away. He was known to have been one of Sadow's strongest supporters, and is strongly suggested to be the same guy shown leading the attack on Coruscant. But how did he manage to make it all the way back to Sadow's fleet, then back to the Empire, AND escape the crossfire between Sadow and Kressh's forces, AND the Republic/Cinnagar Fleets, AND also stay loyal to Sadow long enough but still break with him soon enough to survive after him but also avoid aligning with Kressh? Unless he did actually align with Kressh? The how of his becoming "acting Dark Lord" is a really tough one to figure. And of course, what happened to him afterwards. There is the bit about one of Sadow's crewers reporting to him that "some of Ludo's ships are still out there"- could Dakhan be among them, and as the only living member of the Sith Council (Kressh dead, Sadow exiled and presumed destroyed) might he have become "acting Dark Lord"/ruler of Sith Space by default? Somebody still had to have buried Kressh on Korriban, or at least quickly deposited his charred remains (and a personal item or two) into that Tomb from Kotor 2. The Hyperspace War lasted long enough that Kressh was able to consolidate his power over Sith Space in Sadow's absence, which would also include the construction of a Tomb on Korriban given how closely Kressh followed Sith traditions.

    So anyway, Dakhan had to have turned against Sadow once the War started going badly, and returned to Sith Space and sided with Kressh, either willingly given that Kressh was actually right all along, or upon realizing that Kressh had usurped control of all of Sith Space in Sadow's absence and that he had better fall in step. And his was one of those "Ludo's ships" that was "still out there" and which were never completely accounted for, and which presumably left once the Republic forces arrived. The way out of the Stygian Caldera was blocked by both Sadow's forces and the arriving Republic fleets, but they could, and obviously did, retreat from Korriban deeper into Sith Space.

    No- only one amulet ends up in Nadd's possession. The one obtained by Kun was taken directly from the Massassi- while Qel-Droma's was found among Nadd's belongings on Onderon. The Kun amulet half is never said to have been owned by Nadd at all. Nadd is confirmed to have plundered what he could from Sadow's stuff on Yavin, but he's also known to have obtained Sith artifacts from Ashas Ree. (Garu, not Dakhan, was the Sith Lord that left Adas' Holocron on Ashas Ree- BEFORE he went off to die in the Hyperspace War- not the subsequent Fall of the Sith Empire.) And it's never explicitly stated where Nadd got the other one (Qel-Droma's) from...

    Look at the path the Kun amulet had to take to get to Yavin in the first place- it had to have either have been left there by Nadd for somebody worthy to find in the future or to have been bought there by Sadow himself, which would in turn mean that he had on his person during the Hyperspace War itself, and presumably well before that. How could a message have even been placed on it, then? And when? The only answer is well before the War ever happened at all, which would in turn mean that Ragnos put the message (or time portals) on the amulets because he KNEW what was going to happen! Ragnos has been speculated to have known how events would unfold, but the amulets would suggest that he did indeed know. Ragnos is specifically said to have been among the few Sith who knew of the Republic and the Jedi, and had reckoned that they might still be strong enough to defeat any Sith invasion. The amulets would thus have been his backup/contingency plan just in case the worst really did come to pass. The only thing left then would be to get the one to Sadow and the other to a worthy (not Sadow) disciple (eventually, Nadd). Or, to have both given to Sadow (who could refuse such a gift from their Dark Lord?), or to have them set aside for a later person to find?

    Nadd is shown to be in communion with at least one Sith spirit on Korriban, and later shows Kun a burial Hall that can only be Ragnos' Tomb given that (in the audio drama) Kun specifically recognizes the amulet Dark Lord from having "seen his mummified remains- on Korriban!", which would thus make the otherwise unidentified spirit seen communicating with Nadd as none other than Ragnos himself! Nadd was working as Ragnos' agent!

    Nadd being in touch with Ragnos would also explain quite a bit of other (seeming) inconsistencies- for example, if he is known to have plundered Sadow's troves on Yavin, why didn't he also take the Amulets? Or both, if both were still there? Or if only one was, then where or from who did he get the other one? Or, Ragnos told him to go to Yavin and (if both were there) take just one amulet so as to activate the hidden message once they were reunited. After all, the amulets had to have been separated at some point, or else the special message wouldn't have even played at all.

    The only remaining question then, is when did the amulets separate, and when would Nadd have gotten in contact with Ragnos? Between Ashas Ree and Yavin, he also had to have stopped off at Korriban, as he is familiar enough with it by the time of DLotS to show Kun around. He was already in Sith Space, after all. It makes sense that he would have visited Korriban.

    Once Nadd was on Korriban, he must then have first met with Ragnos' spirit, who in DLotS knows him specifically by name("he is ready, Nadd"). Either Ragnos had both amulets in his Tomb (which Nadd is shown to be familiar with) and then gave them to Nadd to separate (one to be left on Yavin, one to be kept by him), or (if Sadow had both amulets) told him to find Sadow and from there separate the amulets that Sadow last had (and likely never realized that they were Ragnos' backup plan). Nadd had his own motivations, of course, but he had to have known all along of his relative weakness with certain Sith arts, and that one day he would need a worthy and strong enough candidate to create a new body for his spirit in the future. Thus, both he and Ragnos had a shared interest in ensuring that the amulets eventually found their way to a worthy owner, albeit for different reasons. This of course also makes it entirely possible that Ragnos played Nadd all along, too, knowing that such a person would be likely to turn on Nadd, as Kun did (and conveniently for Ragnos, get rid of the one person who knows that Ragnos is still around).

    One final thing- notice that while Kun does indeed recognize Ragnos (by appearance) in the amulet recording- he doesn't know who he is exactly. And neither does Ulic. And when asked who he is, Ragnos actually refuses to give his name, saying "my power is all that concerns you". Ragnos obviously doesn't want Kun and Qel-Droma to realize just how far back he was planning things, and by extension just how far in advance Ragnos knew of future events and how he could manipulate them to his and the Sith's advantage! He really doesn't want Kun and Qel-Droma poking around too deeply into the past asking questions and making connections that could cause them doubts about their new Sith allegiance, or for two ex-Jedi to realize that he was still active on Korriban, and by extension alert other Jedi to his continued ability to influence Galactic events. With Nadd gone and Kun and Qel-Droma focusing on the Jedi and Republic while unaware of who he was, Ragnos could at last rest easily knowing that the Jedi would not catch on to his continued existence and influence and be satisfied that the Sith would indeed soon have their revenge and "never die".

    Ragnos played the long game to perfection, and guaranteed that the Sith would never die. The amulets are the proof of it.

    Re-reading Tales of the Jedi with this in mind is a true treat. After all, it's the hidden story, and it works perfectly in spite of none of it having been intended originally.
     
  22. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    While I agree with your analysis of the "Grand Design" (and I suspect that "Ragnos" was intended to have been Nadd's Master), I'd like to point out the possibility that Nadd left the amulet on Yavin (rather than it having been Sadow's) and the fact that a battle between Republic and Sith ships seems to be going on in the background of wherever "Ragnos" when he's tattooing Exar and Ulic.

    It's too bad Ludo didn't survive and that TOTJ: FOTSH didn't show the tattooing scene from his point of view. Ludo deserves the last laugh and I too got the impression that Sadow was exiled by/in rebellion against "Ragnos". It seems that Anderson was working with a special edition of DLOTS that only existed in his head.

    I wonder: Was "Marka Ragnos" intended to resemble, "mark of Ragnarok"?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018 at 11:59 AM
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