Senate The European Politics Thread

I feel I'm about to start an argument (which isn't my intention), but Macron is kinda right on this. Particularly among liberals, anti-Zionism is a cover for blatant old fashion anti-semitism.

 

Except that it's not. Accusing people who criticize Israel's actions of being antisemitic is a classic way to get people to keep their criticism quiet. Why is it that Israel gets to be exempt from criticism? What's so special about that ****ing country?

 

I guess this makes me anti-semitic then. Which is kind of weird since I'm technically Jewish, but there you go.

 

Sanders was the biggest antisemite

 

You're both right!

There are many people who use the cover of anti-Zionism for blatant anti-Semitism.
There are also many people who rightfully critique the government of Israel (especially the current one) for being insanely counter-productive for any sort of peace in the Middle East who are not anti-Semitic at all.

It can be two things!

 

When some, not all, use criticism of Israel to attack Jews in general then it is anti-antisemitism. That's my point. It is actually quite common among liberals in the UK.

Thank you dp4m

 

Except there's no reason to bring it up that it can be used as a cover unless you want to hint that the person criticizing Israel is just an antisemite in which case, I tell Macron go ahead, because this is too important an issue to worry about his accusations.

>Macron condemned Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism in France today, saying that it has taken a new shape, and that anti-Zionist and anti-Israel expressions should be opposed.

Essentially Macron does think that all anti-Israel comments are antisemitic.

 

The statement in the headline, "anti-Zionism is a reinvented form of anti-Semitism" is false.

 

True! Wait, what are we doing?

 

dp4m The thing however is that we're not just commenting generally about anti-Zionism here. We're commenting on a statement by the president of a large European country during an event to commemorate the victims of the Holocaust that plainly conflates anti-Zionism and antisemitism. That's not idle chatter, and in that case there's no "he's partially right".

 

It's funny, Macron met with two right wing ***hole authoritarian leaders this week: Trump and Netanyahu

 

Chyntuck:

 

SuperWatto And proud of it

Also, quoting the article:

Macron condemned Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism in France today, saying that it has taken a new shape, and that anti-Zionist and anti-Israel expressions should be opposed. "It's a new type of anti-Semitism," he said.

I'll look up the full statement in French.

EDIT: Here it is, via L'Express:

Emmanuel Macron a déclaré qu'il ne céderait "rien aux messages de haine, (...) à l'antisionisme car il est la forme réinventée de l'antisémitisme".

 

It's a tried tactic from the Israeli government to conflate criticism towards the Israeli government's policies and hatred of Jews. To see the French president do it is truly disappointing.

 

That's true, and I don't agree with Macron in the macro (ha!) -- but in the micro, there is a subset of anti-Zionists (particularly in Europe, and one presumes especially in France) who are basically just peddling hate in there. There are too many people who espouse the view that Vivec did above (even though I'm pretty sure that's not what he meant) which is that "there is no anti-Zionism that's anti-Semitic!" (as in "at all") which is how the others get the cover they need.

Macron's too far to the other side, but it's not the worst sentiment in the world. He's said worse things just this week!

 

Yeesh, that's horrid.

 

Sheesh dp4m, if you think there are especially many antisemites among the French left, you should have a look at Greece (or quite a few other countries east of the Alps).

However, I disagree that "it's not the worse sentiment in the world". In France, antisemitism is a crime and that's a law that's actually enforced. When the president says this sort of crap, it's not about a sentiment, it's about the law. (Though given that Macron's understanding of democratic governance is "shut up the opposition politely but effectively", this shouldn't come as a surprise.)

 

Attend middle class dinner parties in England and you'll be surprised by some of the remarks ushered...

 

Yes, I'm sure there are a lot of anti semitic comments made in "middle class dinner parties." I don't see what that has to do with criticizing Israel.

 

On the one hand, I get where dp4m is coming from in that there are instances of anti-Zionism being used as a cover for antisemitism.

But in the context of what Macron is saying, the French president is clearly wrong. You can't put legitimate criticism of Israel and its military actions and politics under the umbrella of antisemitism. To do so (and especially in a country where, like Chyntuck said, there's an enforced law at work) can potentially be very damaging.

It's an important distinction to make (in both directions).

 

Encase you missed it. Put it in bold, too - not sure if you have problems reading.

 

Okay but we're discussing Macron's comments, who is conflating entirely attacks on Israel as antisemitic attacks.

I'm sorry, friend, but it's very disingenuous to defend Macron's much harsher commentary by replacing it with your less harsh one.

 

I said he was kinda right. Then gave an example. But I was not suggesting all criticism of Israel was hate speech, that would be absurd.* Again, said how a minority could use criticism to mask hated. That's all.

* would be akin to suggesting anti-apartheid opponents of South Africa were racist.

 

He's not kinda right though. He's not right at all. He made a blanket statement that Anti-Zionism is a reinvented form of Antisemitism. That's not kinda right. That's not right at all.

This doesn't work like percentages. Stating "all x is y" when only some x is y is not "kinda right."

 

But that's true of many things, Dan. I don't see how that needs to be especially pointed out.

People can use concern about a higher statistical occurrence of sick leave among women to mask sexism. People can use criticism of lax immigration policies to mask racism. People can use criticism of religious practices to mask bigotry. People can use concern for the air quality in the upper atmosphere to mask jealous hatred of tall people.

People can and always have been able to hide their bigotry behind legitimate concerns and criticisms. It's like you've discovered that people can lie to hide their true intentions.

Wocky should have been here with one of his signature "oh wait" posts.