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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate The European Politics Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by DANNASUK, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. Chyntuck

    Chyntuck Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2014
    I'm watching videos coming out of Catalonia this morning. I don't have any particular opinion about the referendum but these images of the police breaking doors and confiscating ballot boxes are just so, so wrong.
     
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  2. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    The Spanish government really blew it. They took the worst possible approach to the situation. All they have accomplished is to raise support for Catalonian independence, and even other areas of Spain were unhappy with how things were dealt with.

    There is obviously no provision which allows such an independence, nor would Catalonia benefit in any way from being independent, it would probably screw up the entire region in a bad way, especially with all the neighbours being EU-territory and Spain being able to block any deal between Catalonia and the EU. But all that doesn't mean that taking such a tough stance clears things up, if anything it creates more resentment.
     
    Rew likes this.
  3. Chyntuck

    Chyntuck Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2014
    Riot police beating up women, elderly people with head wounds, rubber bullets fired in the air... yeah, this is going to end well.
     
  4. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Franco would be very proud of the Spanish government right now.
     
  5. Chyntuck

    Chyntuck Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2014
    I just don't understand what Rajoy thinks he's achieving. JoinTheSchwarz Does he have such a large proto-fascist base that he can count on them to support him regardless, or even precisely because of his heavy-handed tactics? In any "normal" country this would be seen as a public relations disaster (and a disgrace, obviously).

    Edit: I just saw a video of Spanish police beating up Catalan firefighters. Someone resurrect Bunuel now, please.
     
  6. Point Given

    Point Given Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2006
    Well even if the Independence vote doesn't get recognized, I imagine that the Catalonians will never forgive or forget the actions of the Spanish police today. Rajoy really made independence inevitable.
     
  7. Juliet316

    Juliet316 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005
    And maybe a civil war that further destablizes Europe.
     
  8. Point Given

    Point Given Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2006
    I doubt it. It isn't 1936 anymore.
     
  9. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    That moment when Iraq handles the Kurdistan referendum better than Spain handles a Catalan referendum...

    =D=
     
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  10. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Honestly, at this point, I'm not convinced 45 isn't going to send Kushner there to "sort things out and negotiate peace" -- or would he have to find the most unqualified Spanish speaker in the White House?
     
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  11. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
    This is a day of shame.
     
  12. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    I don't understand the use of force in response to this. It's not as though the international community was going to recognize the referendum.
     
  13. Juliet316

    Juliet316 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005
    Very few people outside of Spain would have likely have known about it if it weren't for this reaction.
     
  14. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    That's not true. It was headline news before violence broke out.
     
  15. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    I don't know why everyone is acting surprised, the Spanish government has regularly said this is how they would respond to the referendum...
     
  16. Juliet316

    Juliet316 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005

    But most people wouldn't have paid attention to it. Especially with most of the media glued to Trump's behind following everything and his scumbag administration does.
     
  17. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Standby for Donald Trump’s enrhusiastic congratulations to Rajoy
     
  18. Chyntuck

    Chyntuck Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2014
    How to lose a referendum in ten easy steps:
    (source)

    This level of political incompetence is mind-boggling.
     
  19. SergeyX2017

    SergeyX2017 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2017
    In some areas, local firefighters have formed lines to defend the voters from the police
    [​IMG]
    This resulted in scuffles: Catalonia referendum: Firefighters attacked by Spanish police as they form human shield to protect voters | The Independent

    There are also confrontations in some places between the federal Civil Guard and the local Catalan police, the Mossos, who try to protect people from their brutality
    [​IMG]
    Catalan referendum: Catalan police force turn on Spanish Civil Guard amid civil unrest | World | News | Express.co.uk
    Catalan referendum: Local police officer moved to tears as he protects protesters in Vielha | The Independent

    Here, a fed and a Mosso almost fight each other, amid a confrontation where the Mossos essentially prevent the fed riot police from dispersing a crowd:
     
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  20. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Mariano Rajoy's party have managed to get the independentist sentiment in Catalunya from 13% in 2006 to 47% in 2016. This referendum was always a sham: convoked by a coalition of extreme left outsiders and a right-wing liberal party that last year was crushed by corruption scandals and desperately trying to get its former importance back; opposed by a massively unpopular ruling party that has accumulated more political scandals than ever Berlusconi would have thought possible. The stench of sewage is seeping from both sides, and personally it's making me gag. Now the Catalonian corrupts are nationalistic heroes, like their voter base wants, and the Spanish corrupts are strong-armed defenders of the unity of the homeland, like their voters want, as both sides have been ramping up the propaganda machine for years and there are few things as surprisingly effective when it comes to fanning the flames of hate as nationalism.

    If anything I would hope that this makes people remember that Rajoy's party was founded by Franco's ministers, but I'm afraid the anti-Catalan sentiment is burning with the same passion as Catalonian independentism is.

    This is going to be the political shape of Spain for the next decade. Thieves and cutthroats doing whatever they can to remain in power, no matter who they take down with them, and the lower classes paying for it in blood and money.

    What a massive, total cluster****
     
  21. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Lest we forget, The Civil Guard has been doing this **** for years in Basque Country, but the eyes of the world chose not to see.

    Article 7 of the Amsterdam Treaty states any member state, who violates the democratic and human rights of its people (with force), will be suspended from the European Union.

    But, you know, the EU will no doubt turn a blind eye on this one.
     
  22. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
  23. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    The heavy-handed ineptitude is staggering. The Spanish government has always maintained any independence referendum would be non-binding -- and I get that their position is also that it's illegal, but... crushing ballot boxes and beating voters? That's one way to escalate the situation.

    Thanks for the specific context as always, @JoinTheSchwartz. Absolutely nothing I've read has gone into the composition of the independence movements or the people behind it. At best they'll get into the legacy of Francoism.

    There are basically three tiers of coverage I'm seeing:

    I: twitter, "oh noes they are crushing freedoms! Ham-fisted Trump analogy! Hashtag resist!"

    II: news, "the right-wing Spanish government is crushing an independence movement and in so doing raising the stakes"

    III: JCC, nuanced takes with informed perspectives.


    I'm strangely proud of us :p





    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  24. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Coincidentally, I've just been reading about Alva, Spanish governor of the Netherlands some 450 years ago. He came here to restore order and suppress protestantism. He was merciless. He boasted to his king that, upon conquering the town of Zutphen, his men "slit the throats of everybody in sight", and he had all the inhabitants of Naarden executed upon surrender. He introduced a special tax - 10% on everything - to pay for his army. Sure enough, it managed to create even more opposition, and eventually the Dutch people rid themselves of the reign of the most powerful kingdom in the world. You read it and you think, of course. Violent suppression is not the way. Who knows, if the Spanish king had allowed protestantism, the Dutch might still be Spanish.

    Then today happens and it just looks like a continuum. Is the Spanish Empire still in the process of dying? Have they learned nothing?
     
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  25. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
    *Alba
     
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  26. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000