Senate The European Politics Thread

We understand a Prime Minister's powers are less expansive. We also understand he was under no obligation to call for that referendum. He made a political calculation that benefited him and damned the country.

 

He clearly was though, because they'd gone into government without the LibDems and thus the Conservative MPs who wanted a vote could start to derail the Government's agenda by crossing the floor.

Does it ever bother you, commenting on the kinds of day to day democratic dealings you have no familiarity with?

 

I don't think that the fearmongering bit is an absolute rule; there are plenty of recent counter-examples where the fearmongering side lost (Catalonia, Greece, Hungary to name a few) and in any case I'm not sure why the mobilising bit should be thought of as different from a normal election.

However, even in the scenario where the fearmongering side won, I think that this says more about the evolution of European politics than about the nature of referenda themselves. We've shifted to a political paradigm where fear is a good selling point. When there were referenda about joining the EU ~40 years ago, or about Maastricht for instance, the political debate happened in entirely different terms.

 

Oh no! They could derail the agenda!

Again, your implicit assumption is that David Cameron somehow deserved to stay in control. He didn't. I fully realize he could've faced internal revolt for not calling a referendum. That's still not an excuse to do so. You're the only person who finds this exculpatory.

 

The Catalonia vote was a bit of a special case given the question of legality/legitimacy. The no vote viewed it as illegal and stayed home.

 

I also don't judge Tony Blair by Iraq alone; your point?

 

I was using it as an example of bad decision making from the well educated and affluent, which undermines many arguments for limiting the franchise. You then swooped in to claim it was some kind of “Americentrism.” But now that you’ve conceded the point, what exactly were you trying to say? Because I honestly don’t see a coherent message in your posts.

 

Okay, this is kinda scary...

https://www.theguardian.com/educati...t-brexit-chris-heaton-harris?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

Been there, done that.

 

Yes, but now a functioning system of government in a country with a culture is having a crack at it, Alpha.

 

Yeah well, America is the superpower, so democratic backsliding here is a lot more consequential.

 

Only if America's ever been truly democratic though.

 

European leaders should listen to Sabaton. Great band.

 

....okay.

 

I would not say that songs like 'Angels Calling', 'The Price of a Mile' and 'En livstid i krig' glorify war.

 

Catalan Parliament has declared independence from Spain.

[EDIT]

Spanish Senate has overwhelmingly voted to impose direct rule of Catalonia; Constitutional Court is looking into ways to suspend the UDI.

 

I have a feeling this won't end well..

 

The pro-independence movement believes this will force the international community to speak out against Spain.

It won't.

I believe, correct me if I am wrong, but the EU does not recognise UDI and nor does the UN.

 

BBC News. Theresa May has said the UK will not recognize Catalan independence since it was based on a vote declared illegal.

 

The United States won't either.

Now, Russia is a potential wildcard. I believe their official position is neutrality, but they could easily change just to throw a spanner in the works.

[edit]

France and Germany back the position of Madrid. However, the Scottish Executive have the won the award for the most bizarre response to it. They support and respect the Catalan Parliament vote, but don't recognise an independent Catalan state.

 

Putin would probably back Catalan independence simply because he hates the EU. So what if this creates precedent for separatism within Russia itself? Putin's propaganda machine has shown it's more than willing to turn reality upside-down, what with their "humanitarian aid" to Ukrainian separatists and support for the "legitimate" government of Syria.

 

Entire Catalan government and the head of Catalan police have been sacked. Central government to assume powers of regional executive. Madrid will seek to declare UDI illegal (assuming via Constitutional Court, JoinTheSchwarz?)

Regional elections to be held December 21st.

 

What happens if they decide they aren't sacked? Cause that's what the Libyan government did and we had a civil war out of it.

 

Nobody knows.

The Catalan independent leaders have yet to respond to Madrid's actions.

 

Lord Vivec

Kind sir, your question has been answered. A sacked Catalan Minister, via Twitter, has said his department will continue working and is ignoring Madrid's direct rule.