Senate The European Politics Thread

Next step: people in jail.

I have a bad feeling about this.

 

Madrid is holding off on bringing charges against the Catalan leadership and is encouraging them to stand in December elections.

There is a big pro-Spain demonstration is Catalonia today for the 'silent majority'

 

What are the arguments of Catalan secessionists for secession? I have not heard or seen much of what their actual complaints against the central government are in the media, except one argument that I've seen consistently upheld as the principal cause of the movement, which is that the central government spends less on Catalonia than Catalonia provides revenue. In other words, that the central government uses Catalonia to subsidise less productive regions, which... is how countries are supposed to work? By that logic, California, Texas and New York state should all secede and leave the rest of the US to dry. Is there more to this that I'm missing?

 

The argument is Catalonia pays more to Madrid than it gets back. Franco gets brought up a lot and how Catalonia existed before the Spanish state. But yes, Violent Violet Menace, there isn't much more to this.

Apart from political corruption scandals and using independence as a means of distraction. The belief from the secessionists is the international community would respond and force Spain to the negotiating table. They haven't and won't - unless Rajoy sends in the tanks (which isn't going to happen)

 

Massive pro-unity demonstration in Barcelona today.

 

The pro-independist parties have admitted they'll participate in the Catalan elections of 21st December so err I guess they're not independent after all? Puidgemont along with some of his ministers, who is facing a charge of rebellion, have fled towards Brussels.


Well to be continued on 21st December. 

 

Will be interesting if Brussels grants them asylum.

 

Can they? I would think Spain could just issue a European Arrest Warrant for them.

 

They can seek political asylum, but I honestly struggle to see how (I'm not a lawyer)

None of them are endanger of losing their lives and are not facing political persecution from the Spanish State.

 

Yeah, I'm not versed in EU law either. Now a non-EU country like Russia could probably give them asylum,

 

Spain is a "safe country", so there is no reason to seek asylum from them.

 

Unless you are part of the Catalonian ex-governmet facing charges, I guess. I think there's probably a gray area there.

 

But it is not like torture and a firing squad is waiting for them.

 

True..

 

There's no such thing as a "safe country" in refugee law. Whether you can seek and be granted asylum or not is about your particular circumstances. There's actually at least one case of a resident of an EU country being granted asylum in another European country (specifically, a Guinean refugee who had obtained asylum in Greece to protect him from persecution in Guinea circa 2006, and who was then granted asylum in Belgium to protect him from persecution in Greece circa 2014) so in purely academic terms it's possible.

That being said, I don't see how Puigdemont & Co. could obtain asylum in Belgium under the current circumstances; they'd have a hard time proving that what they're facing is persecution – meaning, they wouldn't get a fair trial with due process, they'd be at risk of ill-treatment/torture/death at the hand of government officials or at the hand of non-government persons from which the government can't/doesn't want to protect them, etc etc. I did hear some statements from Spanish government officials that were pretty creepy (e.g. a few days after the referendum the government spokesman said something along the lines of "the last person who tried to declare the independence of Catalonia was killed") but I don't think there's enough material there to build a case.

 

BBC News

Spain's state prosecutor has requested a European arrest warrant for ousted Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont and four others over their role in a disputed independence referendum.

I have a feeling this one is just going to get worse.. The five failed to show up in Spain's high court on accusations of sedition, rebellion, and misuse of public funds.

 

Protests in Catalonia over the arrest warrant; the ousted leadership have called for widespread 'nonviolent' protests across the region.

 

Seeing footage on Sky News of a huge protest in Barcelona calling for the jailed Separatist leaders to be released by Spain.

 

The pro-Catalan movement just keep adding fuel to the fire.

 

How's the migrant crisis going? Are refugees still coming over?

Secondly, I'm just curious. I know The Hague is an international tribunal. The UN has one. Why are they separate? It's been a while since I studied foreign policy.

 

Badly, yes, and because it's a big world out there.

 

I believe, correct me if I am wrong, The Hague was established before the creation of the United Nations.

 

Don't think so? Think it was roughly the same time, with the UN charter founding the Hague (assuming we're talking ICJ?)...

 

There was a League of Nations version before that.

 

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. Not the ICJ, dp4m

I believe there was an international court setup, based at The Hague (I think), at the turn of the 20th Century. Might have to dip my fingers into Google and find something more accurate.