Clone Wars The Even Piell Centre for Canon and Continuity Catastrophes

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Asharak, Mar 5, 2012.

  1. darkchrono Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 4
    Ignorance is saying how bad the real story stinks simply because it is not what you want to see.
  2. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    If it's not part of the SW story, why isn't it classified N-canon? Why did LucasFilm bother making the distinction between C, S, and N-canon?

    Also, again, Lucas is leaving. He won't be involved with this franchise any more, so saying that Lucas' involvement is a prerequisite doesn't make sense.
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  3. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    I suppose the 'real story' is only limited to the films, the rest is EU.
  4. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    Even if G/T-Canon works have the power to supersede C-Canon works, that doesn't mean it's always a good idea or that they have to exist separately. C-Canon works have enriched higher-level media since the very beginning. They enhance the overall story being told.

    And from a simple business perspective, you're more likely to get tie-in materials written and bought if you keep things whole. There will inevitably be significant changes from above, but trivial alterations don't exactly inspire confidence in Lucasfilm's ability to nurture a cohesive expanded universe.
  5. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    The Prequel trilogy is EU to me. :p

    It was made 16 years later, and it expanded the universe, did it not?

    /sarcasm
    Last edited by 07jonesj, Mar 10, 2013
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  6. darkchrono Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 4
    You knew all along that at any given time higher levels of cannon could come in and re-write C-cannon. Just like at any given time G cannon can come in and rewrite T cannon. If one day a movie decides to be made that replaces the story being told in TCW then that will make the TCW insignificant. Will I like it....no.....but I will accept it because I know that T cannon is not as a high as G cannon.
    Last edited by darkchrono, Mar 10, 2013
  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Since you have yet to sell anyone that you are making a convincing argument, apparently that isn't all that needs to be said.

    I'm sure you're creative and ingenious enough to try this from another angle. I have welcomed another explanation to continuity changes other than "because Filoni can or wants to." Still waiting for you to offer one.
  8. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Speaking of warping, you're warping history to suit your own bias.
    The reason people believe the Expanded Universe is the real story of Star Wars―the reason the Expanded Universe is the real story of Star Wars―is because that is the official Lucasfilm company's policy. Once upon a time, there were no levels of canon. There was simply Canon and Not Canon. If it was published under the official license of Star Wars, whether book, comic, or game, then it is Canon. If it was designated as an official "What If" storyline, or published by someone outside of the Star Wars franchise, then it is Not Canon. That's it, full stop, no other options. And that was how Lucas made his money for years. It was only after some of the more serious contradictions were introduced by the Prequels that this letter tier system was introduced and subsequently released to the fans to explain that there was some established precedent for why Lucas was changing established fact. This was not always policy, it was late-to-the-game ass-covering of the sort that Lucas and his people have only gotten more efficient at as the years go on.
  9. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    Do you not accept that this is an incredibly destructive way to go about things?

    Star Wars has always excelled in that there aren't multiple universes with different versions of all your characters. It's one cohesive timeline (up until very recently). The canon system does not mean that everything will be overwritten, it is literally intended to prevent lower canon levels from ignoring higher ones.

    Disney/LucasFilm could throw out everything and reboot the entire franchise from A New Hope. They have that power. But give me a good reason to do so. Just saying "they can" isn't a reason. They can do anything. On the creative side, it doesn't make sense to throw everything out when there's so much great material in the EU (yes, there's good and bad, but the good is great). A clean-up is fine, most of the early Marvel comics are S-canon, for instance, because they don't fit in with the general SW feel and continuity.

    I'll yet again repeat in the hopes that you'll read it this time: the novels/comics are advertised as "part of the wider SW saga". They are advertised as a cohesive universe - as a part of a whole. They aren't advertised as Infinities. You keep stating, "it's C-canon" as if that's all that needs to be said. C-canon still "happened" in the SW timeline.
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  10. Fives_Says_No_To_Sixes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2013
    star 3
    THIS^^^

    Regarding Barriss - That single strip is the one thing I know of EU wise that was changed and I completely agree that it is barely enough to get into a tizzy about.

    As far is some of these more headdesk moments of continuity breaking, I feel like this will always be my view -

    George Lucs is the creator. As much as some of his decisions make me cringe, it is his universe. If he wants to do something, he can. I may not like it but when it comes to canon - he has the final say. That being said, we know Lucas is involved with TCW - even now. Even with the Disney takeover, he still will retain his "G level" influence. On TCW, Ep7 and forward, he will always be that kind of consultant - if he says it, then its absolute canon. Now, many of the continuity gaffes may be Filoni calling the shots, or it may be Lucas, sometimes, we just don't know. But as long as Lucas is involved in the show, whatever is said will trump the other EU sources. This is the simple fact of the history of the GFFA.

    Like I said before, some of these changes, I may not like at all, but there are other changes that I do feel are warranted and even superior than their former canon (quality wise). I don't think it makes sense for me to hate an entire series, just because changes are made that contradict what I already thought I knew. My beef is with people who hate on the entire series and take an elitist stance that it is all rubbish b/c "I know the real history of that character and its not that!" Its a very hipster stance and its a bit annoying. If one change frustrates you, then okay, be frustrated by that change...but at the same time, try to view it independently from any previous canon and if you still feel that the storytelling is rubbish - then okay, your opinion on liking/disliking the show has personal merit. If the story independently is actually good and you just hate it because it changed "history" needlessly, I find that a poor excuse to hate an entire series - especially when these changes are not occupying every second of series' 112 episodes.

    Take the special editions for example. Hayden Christensen in ROTJ, Han shooting first, Vader screaming "No!" - I hate each of these moments. But should I say that the entire OT is rubbish because it contains them? Sure they're not necessarily canon changes since their changing something within themselves and not across other bodies of work, but the same principle still applies. They are needless, jarring and ridiculously stupid changes.

    Ultimately, canon is "a history of said fictional universe." And like a history of anywhere, things hold more credence than others. Many times, historians and archaeologists come across works of literature, art, architecture, etc. that may contradict each other's version of historical events. This is a simple fact. Historians' jobs are to examine all of the facts and determine which sources are more credible. Obviously, a primary source is the most reliable. Secondary sources may clash, but there are ways of deciding which is more truthful in its' interpretation of events. Luckily, in the "history" of the GFFA, we do not need to be fumbling in the dark on which is true and which isn't because we have a hierarchy established (G - n canon), a single primary source that is known to trump all (GL) and a keeper of the Holocron to help sort out issues (Leeland Chee). When I see canon get axed by a "higher level canon," I view it the same way that a historian would view is various sources.

    I do not blow up when a past portrayal of an event is rendered "false," by a new, more reliable source. I examine what can still be inferred as true from that past portrayal, put the pieces together, and move along with a more coherent understand of history.
  11. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    Sure, it's Lucas' universe, but you can't have it both ways: don't profit from the stories you'll later contradict, and then expect us to swallow them without question.
  12. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2008
    star 5
    God, **** like this is why I avoid the Episode 7 forum. My deepest sympathies to level-headed people there.
  13. Fives_Says_No_To_Sixes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2013
    star 3
    I never said I like continuity changes, but unfortunately, in this franchise, it seems that, "it is unavoidable. It is your destiny."
  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Pretty sure that very few people have said they hate an entire franchise due to continuity changes.

    However, "because he can" is still an asinine and arrogant reason to alter continuity.

    Not at all surprised that that's the only reason given for it happening.
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  15. darkchrono Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 4
    As long as the story is being told within the universe that he created than it is his money to make. If you are upset about him making money and then making particular ideas created by others insignificant than go create a universe of your own that Lucas is not a part of. Until then your complaints really don't hold up very well.
    Last edited by darkchrono, Mar 10, 2013
  16. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
  17. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    Did you just say that to critique something, you have to have direct experience? So I should never complain about bad Governmental policies because I've never worked within the Government?

    Uh... ad Verecundia? Appeal to authority?

    The ability to critique does not require direct experience. I can just imagine how our world would be if that were the case.
  18. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Yeah, Jack, go create your own universe in which you make a character who is a pacifist healer and then later say "Oops! I really meant that she likes to blow **** up." I've never gotten the chance to call you an arrogant ass who likes to say "**** you" to your fan base and there's something missing from my life because of that. ;)
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  19. darkchrono Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 4
    Did Lucas say she was a pacifist hero or did an EU author?
  20. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    We simply ask that the honorable Mr Lucas show a bit more respect for the written works that have made him so much money and have enriched and expanded on the universe he created.
  21. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    It doesn't matter. The Lucasfilm label was stamped on the back of the book and the character was the same.

    And don't bother with the "real story" argument again, unless of course you're just trying to be amusing.
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  22. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    I find it amusing that every canon debate is the same.
  23. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    It might be fun to parody it elsewhere, Fanboy.

    Something something EU glorified fan fiction something something
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  24. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    Actually, there are more points that are relevant but not many people seem to bring them up, preferring to use the same arguments over and over again.

    What makes the most sense for the business side? Would erasing the EU cause a dramatic decrease in novel/comic/tie-in sales? What would be the monetary benefit of erasing the EU?
  25. darkchrono Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 4
    I know you guys don't like it but again you knew when reading many of these books that higher cannon could come in at any given time and change the story written by these authors. So again you don't really have much room to complain.