Clone Wars The Even Piell Centre for Canon and Continuity Catastrophes

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Asharak, Mar 5, 2012.

  1. darkchrono Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 4
    Well you can continue to call it lazy if you want but that is just your opinion. A lot of other people will have the opinion that they are just telling the story that they wanted to tell all along. And that the EU was not the story that they wanted to tell and they have every right to go in and tell the story that they want to tell since it is their franchise and not those authors franchise.

    Gripe about it if you must but you are going to have to get used to it. Create your own personal canon if you want to.
    Last edited by darkchrono, Mar 23, 2013
    Pfluegermeister likes this.
  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Do you have some convoluted explanation as to why Lucasfilm endorsed the C-canon stories in the first place if that isn't the story they wanted to tell? Since endorsing a story that wasn't the "right" one is just asinine and stupid.

    Or are you going to post another holier-than-thou "you're just going to have to accept it" non-explanation?

    Bull****.
    Robimus, Zeta1127 and 07jonesj like this.
  3. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    There's no point debating this with darkchrono, he doesn't have a plausible reason to ignore the EU. Oh, and there are. I'd prefer that they didn't erase it, I love having the feeling that I'm experiencing one adventure in a big damn tapestry, but there are reasons to erase it.

    But darkchrono doesn't pick the ones that make sense. He just claims that the letter "C" is lower than "G" and that we were somehow told before that "C" actually meant "N", when it... doesn't.

    Got to answer this though.

    That's the reason the continuity system is in place - so that authors don't just go ****ing all other each others' work all the time. It's a mess that's been mostly avoided until The Clone Wars.

    Oh, and people should learn to share. If you come into the SW franchise, accept that you're already writing a story in an existing franchise, and don't act like SW was created by you 5 years ago when you stepped through the door and picked up a pen.

    When Brent Friedman was brought into The Clone Wars writing team in Season 4, he didn't just suddenly decide that Anakin was actually the Grand Jedi Master. You know why? He was writing in an existing universe.
    Last edited by 07jonesj, Mar 23, 2013
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    AMEN.

    Paging you, Dave Filoni. And your hat. And your naked picture of Ahsoka in its heart-shaped frame.
    kubricklynch and 07jonesj like this.
  5. darkchrono Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 4
  6. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    "The Holocron is divided into five levels (in order of precedence): G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon."

    You see that distinction between C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon?

    Methinks you should learn what that is.
    Last edited by 07jonesj, Mar 23, 2013
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm pretty sure that page doesn't say "everything below G-canon is fan fiction and can be overridden at will by an arrogant twit wearing a cowboy hat."
    jacktherack and Esg like this.
  8. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    I am tempted to edit that in though, for the lulz. :p

    How you doing today anyway, Anakinfan?
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  9. The Shadow Emperor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2012
    star 4
    It does say that T-canon trumps C-canon.
    Last edited by The Shadow Emperor, Mar 23, 2013
  10. darkchrono Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 4
    Yes and it also says G canon overides the lower level of canons as well. It doesn't matter though as the EU fans are extremely bitter right now about the possibility that their books won't be used in the new movies and will continue to say how much they've been wronged.
    Last edited by darkchrono, Mar 23, 2013
    Pfluegermeister likes this.
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Well, that was a clever edit to keep yourself from looking like you want to run us all off the boards. :rolleyes:

    Hi Jones, I'm fine, lazy Saturday. :) Yourself?
  12. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    America could launch nukes at every country in the world right now. Just because something can be done does not mean it should.

    I don't really class myself as an "EU fan". I just like Star Wars - all of it. I don't really read many of the comics, mostly their synopses, but I like Star Wars. Will I feel wronged if they demolish the current expanded universe? I'll be annoyed, sure, and I may even be annoyed enough to not watch Episode VII, depending on how I feel at the time.

    But I'd mostly feel for the aggrieved writers that were specifically brought in and told that they got to write a piece of official Star Wars history. Yes, I'm aware it's a fictional universe, but many of these were a great work of passion for these people. Suddenly, it all gets thrown in the bin because newer people don't want to use Wookieepedia. I've always said I'm well aware that it's difficult to have everything perfectly fit. I'm not going to throw a fit over minor discrepancies.

    But is 22 years really the amount of time it takes for fiction to be thrown out now? Are we as a species that quick to throw written works out?

    A reboot may very well be necessary one day, when the universe is so full that most of the timeline is mapped out, but it isn't now. Ignoring Legacy, which can be moved up the timeline if need be, the novels have only gone 41 years after ROTJ. In over 70 novels, only 41 years of the SW timeline have been covered.

    A cohesive universe is much more fun, and impressive to behold, than a universe that's constantly overwriting itself, where you don't know what material holds consequence and what doesn't any more.

    Glad to see you're good. Same for me I guess, I've just received the full series of Lost in the mail so I'll probably busy myself watching that for the next few weeks. Never seen it and want to see what all the fuss is about.

    So, yeah, lazy Saturday. :p
    Last edited by 07jonesj, Mar 23, 2013
  13. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I don't think that the EU will necessarily "go anywhere" or be eliminated. I do think it might be rebooted though.

    What I think they should do and what I think they will do are different.

    I can appreciate continuity, and having one big overarching story would be nice. It can be done, but it could also have been done with Star Trek, but laziness prevails and they said **** it, I don't want to have to follow what the writers are doing in their books. There's less of a problem when the films do something and the EU plugs in the gaps, but I think all bets are off when the movies move into a time frame that has been covered by the EU.

    For instance, let's say the idea comes up to make a prequel to TPM that follows Palpatine's life and includes his apprenticeship to Plagueis. Plagueis may be a good selling novel (I don't honestly know how well it did), but no matter how well it did in book sales, there is probably so much more money that would be made in making it a film. And I just don't suspect that they would adapt Luceno's book in the same way that say Spielberg adapted Crichton's Jurassic Park into a film. I think they would just come up with something completely new.

    Or if they decided to make a movie about the beginning of the Sith and Jedi, I don't think they are going to look to Dawn of the Jedi, they're probably just going to make their own stuff up, retcon the hell out of it, and then the EU of that time frame will get rebooted to accommodate what the films are doing.

    I think PT-OT EU is the safest from seeing further changes at the moment because they're probably not going to come back to those eras for more TV shows or films in the near future.
  14. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Dawn of the Jedi has nothing to do with Sith, though?
    Esg likes this.
  15. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    True. OK, then the beginning of the Jedi and the split in ideologies.
  16. Jedi Master Chuck Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2013
    star 1
    It's not just Dave Filoni though...I really don't get the animosity against him. He's working directly with George Lucas. You can't really fault George for going against what other writers did with his series. I mean, he wrote the story for VII - IX and given his past comments, I seriously doubt he's going to hold to the story of the New Jedi Order and Fate of the Jedi series which take place in roughly the same time period. Are we going to blame Dave Filoni for that too or accept that George Lucas has a different idea for the story of Star Wars. I'm not against the EU...not by a long shot. I do like very definite continuities in the stories I read though, which is why I think this issue needs to really be set in stone. The Sequel Trilogy will most likely contradict the main post-RotJ EU material.


    What I would propose is two separate universes...two separate tellings of Star Wars


    Lucas Universe Continuity
    Star Wars Episodes I - III (The Prequel Trilogy)
    Star Wars Episodes IV - VI (The Original Trilogy)
    Star Wars Episodes VII - IX (The Sequel Trilogy)
    Star Wars: The Clone Wars
    Star Wars: Clone Wars (2003 Microseries)*
    Novels / comics / video games made post-Episode IX specifically designated as part of the Lucas continuity / canon
    Future spin-off movies, main features (should they make Episodes X and beyond), live action, and animated TV series
    *As of this point, nothing in TCW contradicts CW. The majority of the series takes place before Anakin becomes a Jedi Knight and reflects his relative immaturity. Ventress and Grievous appear for the first time, not completely out of the blue; The final episodes lead right into RotS and given the premature end of TCW, I don't think we'll see this happen in the 2008 series.


    Expanded Universe Continuity
    Star Wars Episodes I - III (The Prequel Trilogy)
    Star Wars Episodes IV - VI (The Original Trilogy)
    Existing novels / comics / video games (ie The Old Republic, Force Unleashed*, New Jedi Order, etc.)
    Future novels / comics / video games which continue the story of the current EU (stories which continue the story of Fate of the Jedi etc.)
    *The Force Unleashed is ambiguously canon given that it's a video game. While the story does address things and currently tie into the OT, I feel like this story could be worked into future Lucas continuity stories (such as a live action movie) which would better serve the purpose of telling the story as a whole now that there are more than just 6 movies.

    Infinities Universe Continuity
    What-If stories...like I personally would be very interested in a story about what would have happened had Anakin not turned to the Dark Side and The Clone Wars ended differently


    Non-Canon
    Robot Chicken
    Detours
    etc.


    I know that some people will take this as a slight against the EU, but I view it differently. I actually think this elevates the EU and eliminates the need for any future attempts to retcon existing stories with things done with future movies / TV series. It allows them to continue building the current EU even after Episodes VII - IX completely contradict the storylines of the NJO and Fate of the Jedi series. This would allow the Lucas universe to borrow characters and themes from the EU without contradicting that continuity / events of that universe and vice versa. The EU could bring in characters from VII - IX in a different role as the Lucas Universe could bring in Galen Marek, Thrawn, Mara Jade, etc. even if their role is not exactly the same.

    I honestly think this would be a really smart thing for Disney / Lucasfilm to address directly. They could put out an official continuity / canon book or something that breaks this down really clearly. Add a page on the main star wars site for the Expanded Universe under the headline "always in motion is the future, and many possible futures there are" ... make a main page and break down all the materials of the EU very clearly.

    This allows them to produce future comics / novels / video games in BOTH the EU and the LU. It basically doubles the profit...fans will feel like there are two completely different tales of Star Wars. Once they're hooked on one, they may jump into the other. It elevates the EU to a greater point than it is now...no longer is it second fiddle to The Clone Wars, but a whole separate continuity that can continue to build.


    It may be a big shift at first, but with the Sequel Trilogy, spin-off movies, future TV series, etc. coming down the line, I really believe this shift needs to come. It will allow Lucasfilm / Disney to promote the EU to a higher state than it is now. No more retcons. No more ambiguously canon scenes or discrepencies between TCW and the EU material we have now. In Lucas continuity, Barriss Offee is a dark Jedi, Even Piell dies at the Citadel, etc. In the EU, Barriss dies in Order 66 and Even Piell survives to the Dark Times.

    Fans will likely be more inclined to jump into the EU if they have a very clear breakdown of the materials / stories that are part of that continuity directly from Lucasfilm. As it stands now, knowing those materials could easily be rendered non-canon at the whims of Lucas, Filoni, etc. (I don't think this is wrong; they have a different idea from how the story is told and shouldn't be obligated to hold to all the stories told in the EU) certain people might hesitate to pick up EU novels, comics, or games. But if they went ahead and broke down the continuity more clearly, people could say "oh hey right on the main star Wars site, there's this page for the Expanded Universe. What's that? Oh wow there's all this other material telling a completely different story about Luke, Han, Leia, etc? " then jump right in....


    But we need a really concrete list at this point and the time for a split is here. I really think it elevates the EU and strengthens BOTH stories....plus it will generate MORE fan interest in the EU and allow authors more freedom to step away from constantly trying to go back and work past contradictions that arise as new materials are written for the Lucas Universe. With both stories ongoing, it's too hard for them to keep everything straight. One hand doesn't know what the other is doing essentially. They could produce novels / comics / etc. specifically commissioned as part of the Lucas Universe in the future but would have to explicitly designate them as such and keep a solid list directly on the main site for fans to easily access. With two thriving ongoing stories telling a very different series of events in the Star Wars universe built around the original trilogy, I really can't think of anything better for the fans and for the series new owners looking to turn the biggest possible profit.
    Last edited by Jedi Master Chuck, Mar 23, 2013
    The Shadow Emperor likes this.
  17. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    IMO one of the things that Star Wars constantly does that I know some people adore, but I think it works to the detriment of the EU more than anything, is attributing dates to everything. They can establish a chronology, but I think putting dates to everything closes opportunities. The films themselves, other than the 10 year gap between TPM and AOTC, never specify the passage of time between them.

    So a lot of people complained that TCW could not continue because it was only a three year war and it was just getting ridiculous as to how many battles were taking place and everything that happened in that time. I think it would have been better to leave it vague.

    AOTC happens. The Clone Wars happen. ROTS happens.

    And everything is on a floating timeline so if new stories are written, then can be made to fit between other stories without running into "OMG, that can't happen because it would have to happen in two months' time! The war was only three years long! Ahsoka walks away from the Jedi less than a year before ROTS and she never gets mentioned by Palpatine when he's trying to turn Anakin against the Jedi?!"

    Remove the dates and for all you know the war could have been 3 years, or 5 years, or 10 years and they can put whatever stories in there that they want. It doesn't really matter if it's 5 or 10 years, just as long as x, y and z happened in that order. Sure fans want to know exactly how long it is, but I also think giving everything a date closes doors and opportunities as they fill in. When you say that the Clone Wars were only 3 years, x happened 1 year in, y happened 1.5 years in, and z happened 2.5 years in, those become obstacles to work future stories around.

    To me, Mark Hamill looks like he aged like hell between ESB and ROTJ. EU says that one year passed. The movies don't say. And I just think it works better if you watch the films in that kind of ignorance.

    If all post-ROTJ EU was stripped of its date and the sequel trilogy was made, I think they would have a far easier time just saying "it takes place between x and y."

    Chewie dies in the EU and Han outlives him. One thing I suspect is going to happen in the films though is that Harrison Ford will finally get the death for the character that he's hoped for, and Chewie will make an appearance. Throwing off any EU that conflicts with. And unless Lucas changed his mind, I suspect that he will have Luke be single and without kids, conflicting with Mara and Ben Skywalker's place/existence in continuity. Yeah, the EU can always write it off as though Luke just went through a period of increased devoutness as he battled his inner demons and alienated himself from his family or something like that. But I don't have the most optimism for a lot of post-ROTJ EU.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Mar 23, 2013
  18. Jedi Master Chuck Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2013
    star 1
    I actually really agree with you about the dates / time thing as well.

    The movies never explicitly state the duration of The Clone Wars etc.

    Personally I felt like The Clone Wars series shows a much longer war than only 3 years. We see a much, much more mature Anakin than in Attack of the Clones at the very beginning of the series. Even if you look at the 2003 microseries, he was much closer to his AotC counterpart than the hero we see in TCW. I even thought of this in the episode "The Deserter". While it was later stated that Cut Loquane's children were adopted, I think it was clearly intended for them to be his actual son and daughter. I may be wrong, but the spotty skin complexion would indicate to me they were supposed to be half-human, half Twi'ilek. I've only ever seen Twi'ilek with solid skin color and the fact that they had some beige / tan rather than the usual blue / green / purple at least seems to indicate they were originally Cut's children until "timeline continuity discrepencies" arose where, according to the movies alone, there really aren't any.

    I also agree with you about Mark between TESB and RotJ.


    At this point, I really think we have to consider novelizations / comic versions of the movies in the non-canon or ambiguously canon range at best. Shaak Ti dies in the RotS novelization as does Barriss Offee. Barriss is seen dying in the RotS comic which bothers some people, but I would also point out that very same comic depicts Quinlan Vos dying even though he's known to survive in the EU....so in that case even the EU is contradicted.


    I now consider that we only saw a handful of Jedi die in RotS (unfortunately Plo Koon was among them) and their deaths need to be held canon.

    In my suggested list I would hold the movies alone, not their novelizations, comic versions, etc. as part of Lucas continuity....and ditch the timeline in the strict sense that Gon mentions above.


    I really don't see any reason to think based on the movies that The Clone Wars lasts only 3 years and given how much we see happens in that time span I'm personally inclined to believe the war lasted quite a bit longer (5+ years sounds good). Ignoring outside materials, if I just watch the TV series and movies, I'm told that Cut Loquane has kids (the show never implies that they're anything but his biological children), that Anakin had an apprentice, I see a whole lot of events related to the war and other events occurring at the same time, and am never told the duration of the war. I think that we really need to consider that moving forward as Gon says in the above post.
  19. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Suu Lawquane is a pink-skinned Twi'lek. Even if we assumed that Jek was tan because Cut is darker-skinned, Suu's daughter is predominantly blue-skinned. Genetics don't seem to factor into Twi'lek skin color the same way they do among humans, so the color of their skin is no apparent marking of any cross-species parentage. The more likely solution is that Shaeeah had a skin disorder the likes of which are abundantly evident in the real world.

    Shaak Ti doesn't die in the RotS novelization, neither does Barriss. Barriss is only shown to be killed in the comic, which now that the show's done screwing around and ruining her character, hopefully the EU can reverse that ridiculousness and have things realign. Also, Vos was not shown to be killed in the comic, merely shot. The Republic comics, in which Vos prominently starred, also show him being attacked and severely wounded, but ultimately living. No contradiction whatsoever.
    Esg likes this.
  20. Jedi Master Chuck Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2013
    star 1
    He actually explodes in the comic...I mean he's standing on top of a tank that explodes. Still, if he survives that, I think we could also make a case for Plo Koon surviving his crash because they seemingly suffer a similar amount of damage.

    To me the comic is completely non-canon anyway. Certain aspects of it don't even line up with the movie, let alone other materials like The Clone Wars. We see Obi-Wan kill Grievous in one confrontation which is reminiscent of the scene in the movie, but not really the same. The comic is more based on the movie than anything.


    Ultimately the comics / novelizations of the movies are kind of redundant so to consider both them and the movies as canon is kind of unnecessary. The movie tells the story and outside materials like the Clone Wars can expand on them.

    As I mentioned before, if they just split it into two timelines, there would be no need for EU writers to scramble and come up with implausible stories for Barriss to somehow be fighting alongside the Jedi in Order 66 despite her assisting in a terrorist act against the Jedi, framing a close friend, and hinting heavily at a fall to the dark side.

    I'm respectful of the EU, even if I haven't read all that much of it and prefer TCW. I think my plan elevates it to a higher status than it already is in now. So I don't really understand when some people want to eliminate TCW from canon (as if that were even possible given George Lucas wrote the stories) and wipe it from existence, completely disrespecting the creators of the show and it's very many fans.

    Separating the series into two distinct continuities can allow fans to enjoy both, maybe debate which is better, but ultimately eliminate any such animosity where fans get angry about events in the TV series / movies contradicting existing novels, etc.


    As for Suu's children, I see what you mean about the complexion possibly being a skin disorder. I guess that's the explanation if we're to assume they're adopted. However, I'm considering what the creators of the show intended when they consciously chose to pick her complexion. I would think the thought process in the creative department initially was that she was both Cut and Suu's daughter.It would just seem odd to give her any physical features that could be perceived as similar to Cut's if they had no intention of her being his daughter, only an adopted completely Twi'ilek child with a skin disorder. Maybe they didn't realize the timeline discrepancy at first glance and went ahead with it...so if you're really down on Dave Filoni and crew, you could say they made a mistake and retconned it by making them Cut's adopted children. I think the initial implication was that Cut was away from the war from quite a while. Nothing in the episode itself indicates them to be anything but biologically Cut's children. I mean if we consider this as a three year war, just how long could Cut have possibly been away? It's early in the series, before the new character models, so closer to the beginning than the midpoint / end.
  21. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I'm aware of what happens, I have the comic, and hence why John Ostrander had him severely wounded in the close-out arc of Republic. And as far as I'm concerned, someone can have at Plo Koon's survival and I wouldn't bat an eye; people have survived worse, even real-world pilots.

    I'm personally against the idea of striking TCW from canon, for while I'm often disappointed by the writing and fervently disagree with several "creative" decisions, the series does have its fans and I would be loathe to unilaterally write them off. However, the reason so many do hate the series and do want it gone from canon, is the very reason you noted: disrespect for creators and the many fans.

    For a specific instance, were TCW to be taken as ultimate, indisputable fact, without the input of better writers like Jason Fry to put it in its place, it would have spelled the decanonization of everything centered around the Mandalorians from the point of the series forward, including the Republic Commando series, the Marvel comics, and Legacy of the Force's Mandalorian plot. The show's meddling in Mandalorian affairs led to an editorial mandate which resulted in Republic Commando's author departing the franchise and the series' years-long cancellation. The show also killed off Even Piell, Adi Gallia, and Onaconda Farr before their respective times, and ignored the presence of earlier battles of Mon Calamari and Kamino, acting as though it was the first to cover these sorts of events. That is disrespectful. It completely disrespects Michael Reaves, Hayden Blackman, Karen Traviss, Pablo Hidalgo, Genndy Tartakovsky, John Ostrander, and Jan Duursema. Each of these creators were disrespected by TCW, as were their innumerable fans.

    The issue of disrespect swings both ways.
    K'Kruhk and 07jonesj like this.
  22. darkchrono Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 4
    Unfortunately though Mia when you have two separate groups of people that are telling stories within the same universe and not working together to tell those stories things like this are bound to happen. And the leg that TCW will always have on the authors of those books is that they were working directly with Lucas where as the authors were not.
  23. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    The involvement of others is not some sort of guarantee for discontinuity, and in fact, the interconnected nature of the EU and its many authors often lead to richer, more developed stories. If Reaves can work with Traviss material, and Traviss can work with Pena material, Pena and Justin Aclin can work with JJ Miller material, and Fry and Luceno can work with everybody's material...why can't TCW's team work with anybody's material? It ends up looking egotistical, petty, and unprofessional.
  24. Jedi Master Chuck Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2013
    star 1
    I can see the frustration with that for fans of those novels. I guess that's why I really would like to see them separate the two stories so they don't contradict each other. Notice in my proposed plan, The Clone Wars series is not part of the EU, leaving room for even Clone Wars era novels etc. to tell stories in that same time period.


    I don't mind the contradictions personally because in my mind I guess, I've already made the separation. I think it does come down to different sets of writers trying to tackle the same time period. I think we also have to recognize that George Lucas is working directly on The Clone Wars. It could simply come down to the same issues with the post-RotJ EU material. George Lucas may have a different vision and may only partially or selectively read the EU material. I just view the stories as separate. There's one timeline where The Clone Wars takes place and another where the various novels, comics, etc. are canon. I mean I would consider that George Lucas created Boba Fett and the Mandalorian armor...his ideas for their backstory might be different and while fans may enjoy those novels which feature them, I don't really think we can fault George for not sticking to their stories and instead focusing on his own. I don't think it's so much a refusal to work with or acknowledge those authors on the part of Filoni etc. I think it's more to do with George Lucas having his own ideas.
    Last edited by Jedi Master Chuck, Mar 23, 2013
  25. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    Oh, darkchrono, when Disney contradicts/steamrolls TCW you'll have to "deal with it".