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The eventual release of the Prequel Trilogy on 4k Blu Ray...

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Strilo , Jan 15, 2018.

  1. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 6, 2001
    So another thread has brought up many topics that got me thinking about the eventual release of the Star Wars films on 4k Blu Ray. Now, for the six films shot on 35mm, this will be straight foward. They can simply pull from the 35mm for the highest possible resolution, just like every other 35mm film released on 4k so far.

    However, AOTC and ROTS were not shot on 35mm or on film at all. We all know they were shot on HD digital cameras in 1080p. The analog "resolution" of 35mm allows for some pretty amazing clarity even at 4k resolution when properly transferred and restored. However digital resolution is a hard limit. There is ONLY 1080 lines of horizontal resolution stored from AOTC and ROTS. Period. That's Blu Ray quality, for those who wonder.

    The new "4K" format is 2160p, or double the resolution of HD. Seeing as data cannot be created out of nothing, what will they do to release AOTC and ROTS on 4k Blu Ray? Is there some spectacular new way to line-double and have it look right? Will they simply be presented in HD 1080p instead of 4k?

    These are the first major films ever shot in HD digital, so this seems like new territory.
     
  2. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    I hope they figure out how to do it so we can see the glorious quality
     
  3. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    There really is no issue at all. Both AOTC and ROTS were finished at 2K DCI (2048x1080). Most movies (specially those with SFX) are finished (or used to be, until a couple of years ago) at that resolution. Most 4K Blu-ray releases come from a 2K DCI digital intermediate source. AOTC and ROTS will be no different.

    Besides, not everything is about resolution. On a 4K BD, there will be much less compression, higher colour range and depth, so the picture will inherently be more clear and 'purer'.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  4. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Which means that AOTC and ROTS will be upscaled to 4k resolution, which is never as good as things shot in 4k/35mm that have 4k DI/Masters. I guess the question is what DI sources are available for the whole saga...
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  5. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    I’ve actually never seen something in 4K now that I think about it
     
  6. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    There are reference quality 4K BDs sourced from 2K DCI masters. Again, not everything is about resolution. Film can be scanned at very high resolutions. But the picture quality is not necessarily great. It depends on various factors.

    We know ANH got a 4K master a few years ago. Before that, all of them had a 2K DCI digital master.
     
  7. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    I remember seeing AOTC in IMAX and on that large screen and resolution, there were some pretty obvious issues with the effects. You could see like how the digital expansions of like the sky or other things were stills, not moving video. The grain would be stationary and nothing else was moving in that section of the frame, but below a line, the grain would be moving. Makes me think we will see such issues too in 4k. Maybe. Depends on how good and how big TVs are.
     
  8. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    Not sure what you mean by "moving video". The IMAX release of AOTC was cropped due to the different aspect ratio and it was printed to film. You won't see any sort of generation loss or artifacts from that on the 4K release since the master will be taken directly from the digital source.
     
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  9. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Dual-layer BD's cannot hold all the data that the DCP's of the movies for projection in theaters can.

    If an around 2hr and 15 minute movie is over 250GB (like I-III are) then even a triple-layer is only 100GB which is twice that of dual layer BD.

    So with the HEVC codec and better compression then you should get something approaching like what is shown in theaters.

    Of course they will never be "real" 4K since even TPM was scanned at 2K.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
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  10. Seagoat

    Seagoat PT and Music Section Dictator star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    I don't know a whole lot about the technical aspect, but can't something be "upscaled" to make it look better?

    (As an aside, to be perfectly honest, I can't tell the difference between 1080p and 4k myself)
     
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  11. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Check the differences of TLJ and WW:

    http://realorfake4k.com/my-product/wonder-woman/

    It is not real 4K in any material way due to having a final master at 2K. Studios have upscaled the 2K image to 4K and retouched the content for your 4K UHD TV. You should see some visual improvement over a standard 1080p Blu-ray. Check the information below to see if the studios have upgraded the video with HDR or added immersive Dolby Atmos or DTS:X audio tracks.


    • Shot on 35mm and 6K
    • VFX Rendered in 2K
    • Digital Intermediate at 2K

    http://realorfake4k.com/my-product/star-wars-the-last-jedi/

    This is the real deal. Everything was digitally shot in 4K or the original 35/70mm film negative was scanned in 4K and all the mastering/editing was done in 4K. Typically, if the film has VFX it was rendered in 2K. Depending on the caliber of CG, the final picture quality might be imperceptible to Real 4K. Check the information below to see if the studios have upgraded the video with HDR or added immersive Dolby Atmos or DTS:X audio tracks.
    • Shot on 35mm, 3.4K, 6.5K, and IMAX (some scenes)
    • VFX Rendered - Unconfirmed
    • Digital Intermediate at 4K (4K DCP)
     
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  12. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    I remember reading about this a while ago.

    Ironically, since the original Star Wars trilogy was shot on 35mm film and the original camera negative has an effective resolution in excess of 4K, it should look particularly good when projected at that resolution in the cinema. The same will not be true of the prequels, especially Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith, both of which were shot at a resolution of 2K (basically 1080p). That means they can never have a resolution greater than 2K and any 4K release would have to be upscaled. Way to go George! https://www.avforums.com/news/original-star-wars-trilogy-in-4k.10513

    So it seems, at least to a degree that Eps 2 & 3 will be "stuck" with an inferior resolution. Before techniques such as upscaling are applied. We'll see how that goes for the 4K transfer. What about future resolutions of even higher quality though? 8K or even 16K?

    [​IMG]

    In the future will AotC & RotS continue to be left behind the other movies in terms of picture quality? The other issue I find with them, particularly AotC is how stark all of the early 2000s CGI looks on blu-ray on a HD screen. Particularly the borders between the animation & live-action elements. Wonder if that issue will exacerbated even further in 4K.
     
  13. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    I'm not talking about loss or artifacts. I am talking about the techniques they were using for the set/shot extensions in AOTC. Let's say they have a shot where they pan down from the Tattooine sky to the Lars Homestead. The homestead was shot practical, but George wanted a different sky. So they use a computer to composite in the sky. Instead of dropping in a moving video clip, they used a still image of the sky. The film grain of a full motion video clip would have movement to it, with each frame of video. The still image would not. It would have stationary grain. I was able to see this countless times in the IMAX version of this film. The "seams" around the special effects were more obvious.
     
  14. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    But there is no film grain. Grain would only appear if the elements that were composited (or the final shot itself) were shot on film. They weren't. In the IMAX release, the whole movie was printed on film, so the grain would be consistent throughout.
     
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  15. ss640

    ss640 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Dec 28, 2017
    I agree, tbh I didn't even see that much of a difference from 720p to 1080p. They all look the same to me.
     
  16. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Well if you get done to 180p it ain’t so good.
     
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  17. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Yes I am using the term "film grain" to describe the similar thing with digital. It's the sensor noise, or whatever. The same way one gets a grain of sorts with a DSLR when shooting different ISOs and light levels.
     
  18. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    How could you tell, considering that there was an whole layer of film grain on the IMAX print?
     
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  19. TheNewEmpire

    TheNewEmpire Jedi Master star 3

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    Aug 12, 2007
    I'm looking forward to receiving the free 4K updates on iTunes for my apple TV... :)
     
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  20. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    I don't know. It showed through the IMAX film grain, which would be minimal due to the epic size of the IMAX film. Trust me, I know what I saw.
     
  21. Huttese 101

    Huttese 101 Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 19, 2016
    I can't tell you exactly how it works, but from my limited experience with upscaling, it's a pretty effective trick and intelligently implemented. Since very few of the consumers who even own 4K TVs already have massive screens (and no one has a TV screen on the scale of an IMAX theater screen), whatever artifacts that are introduced by upscaling a 2K source to 4K probably won't be too visible. I don't know for sure. But a 35mm source needs to be restored to look good on 4K too, so the supposed quality of the source is no miracle cure. The VHS versions of the OT look quite a bit worse (in terms of film or optical artifacts) than the 2004 DVD version.
     
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  22. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    And your experience has been from what source and on what TV?
     
  23. Darth Arthurius

    Darth Arthurius Jedi Padawan

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    Jan 29, 2016
    As someone who doesn't know much about film, what would the 2K AOTC & ROTS look like in 4 or 8k?
     
  24. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    That's exactly what I am wondering.
     
  25. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    What is there to wonder? A lot of 4K UHD releases come from 2K DCI sources. And most of them look great.