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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The Evolution and Creationism thread

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by KnightWriter, Oct 2, 2002.

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  1. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    This thread is a continuation of the age old debate and discussion.

    A few things to remember. Please focus on the issues and not the message poster. Keep in mind that not everyone here is academically minded and wants to read or even can understand verbose messages filled with academic discussion and high level words. This is not a religious discussion, so please refrain from turning it into one.

    Here goes :).

    This thread is now closed, and a new one will be necessary to restart discussion.
     
  2. SaberGiiett7

    SaberGiiett7 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Round 3.


    I'll start with the all important question.

    Where did the original matter in the Big Bang come from?
     
  3. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Remember that this is not about the Big Bang. That thread is over now, partly because it was an evolution/creationism thread that wasn't fully able to be one. This is a direct evolution and creationism discussion thread. The Big Bang and accompanying theories might relate to evolution or creationism, but it is not the heart of this thread (not to me, at least).

     
  4. sleazo

    sleazo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2001
    Unfortunatley saber evolution does not try to answer the question of abiogenesis. It does not say how, by who or why we were created. It charts the chnages in biological life over the milennia and the reasons for such changes.
     
  5. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Saber, what I believe and what I know many scientists believe is that matter has been around forever.

    Yes, it is very hard to fathom and it seems impossible. Think about this: What if there were "Big Bangs" before the one that created the universe as we know it, and there will be more?

    I have thought about it long and hard and consulted various other sources. I'm sorry if this offends any of you but, to me, the "Big Bang" theory seems a lot more logical than everything appearing out of nowhere.
     
  6. Devilanse

    Devilanse Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2002
    I've heard a theory that I am really thinking has something to it. Maybe this is more of a Quantum Physics thing, I'll let the mod decide.

    Perhaps the universe as we know it is a small molecule in a larger universe. A macroverse is the word I think.

    Take a grain of sand. Now imagine you could shrink yourself to a size where the space between the molecules in that grain is as vast as our galaxy.

    Now thats something to ponder when you look at the stars at night.
     
  7. Emilie

    Emilie Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2002
    Had anybody read MY message in the earlier topic? I had to answer for it...
     
  8. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    "The wise man can look at a grain of sand and envision a whole universe. But the stupid man will only roll around in a bed of seaweed until he's completely draped in it. Then he'll stand up and go, 'Hey, look, I'm Vine Man.'" -Jack Handey

    *cough* So, yeah, about evolution... :p
     
  9. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    The universe being a molecule in another universe seems like good idea. We'll never know for sure, though.

    *wraps himself in seaweed*


    I'm Vine Man! 8-}
     
  10. SaberGiiett7

    SaberGiiett7 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Just for the heck of it I wan't to throw every argument in the book at you guys to see your reaction so 4 words,

    Second Law of Thermodynamics.
     
  11. Devilanse

    Devilanse Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2002
    If you're Vine-Man...can I be your sidekick?

    Kelp-Lad!
     
  12. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Second law of thermo-what? :confused: 8-}

    Sorry, but could you please state it?
     
  13. Darth_OlsenTwins

    Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Briefly the second law states that the entropy of the universe increases. Meaning that it causes an overall increase in disorder.

    This also applies to any closed system.
     
  14. dustchick

    dustchick Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2000
    Second Law of Thermodynamics and SaberGiett7 - I responded to this on the Big Bang thread, but you never really responded. Physicists don't find that the universe violates the Second Law, only creationists do. Why is that? What is your exact objection?
     
  15. Darth_OlsenTwins

    Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Creationists seem to believe that there is a violation of the second law because they ignore terms such as 'closed system' and misrepresent(or misunderstand) terms such as 'entropy' and 'disorder'.
     
  16. chibiangi

    chibiangi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2002
    This is not a religious discussion, so please refrain from turning it into one.

    Creationism by definition is a religious belief, so how are creationists going to stay away from religious discussion?

    It's an honest question.
     
  17. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    I mean a religious discussion that is all about religion itself.
     
  18. Dark Lady Mara

    Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 1999
    There seem to be a lot of misunderstandings over what the second law of thermodynamics really says and how/if it applies to evolution, so let the chemist explain it in a nutshell. :)

    The second law basically states that over time, the sum of a quantity called entropy in the universe must increase. Entropy is a measure of disorder or "messiness" of a system. As Feynman once famously defined it, entropy is a description of the number of ways a system can be arranged so that its outside looks the same. For example, liquid water at zero degrees Celsius has more entropy than ice at zero degrees Celsius because ice is an orderly lattice which can only be organized with molecules of water in certain locations while liquid water is just slop with the molecules free to move wherever they want to.

    For any process that occurs in a system in real life, the sum of entropy changes in the system and entropy changes in the environment (ie. the rest of the universe) must be positive. This does not mean that it is impossible for something to decrease its entropy and become more orderly. Every time you freeze a tray of water into ice cubes, you are making the contents of the tray become more orderly and experience a negative change in entropy. What the second law does say is that the tray and the rest of the universe together are experiencing a positive entropy change because of the freezing. The ice cubes have lost entropy, but the environment has gained that amount of entropy and then some because your freezer, which is not a 100% efficient machine, creates heat and warms up the air around it and the cooling fluid in it, which makes disorder. Hence the overall entropy change is always positive.

    So, what is the application of the laws of thermodynamics to evolution? Strictly speaking, there is none, since the laws of thermodynamics were designed to describe chemical processes, not things that occur in our macroscale universe. But even if we do try to generalize thermodynamics to biological organisms, there is still no relation between that and evolution. If species are "decreasing their entropy" over time as they become more developed, they are also causing the entropy of the universe to increase because bigger organisms have more complicated and often more inefficient metabolisms, meaning their bodies produce more heat and more poop (to put it delicately). So even though thermodynamics seems like a tempting argument for creationists to pull into the debate, it's really nothing more than a distractor.
     
  19. Darth_SnowDog

    Darth_SnowDog Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2001
    The Second Law of Thermodynamics is an observation of the tendency of diffusion of energy (i.e. entropy) in a closed system.

    Evolution itself is not tantamount to the diffusion of energy, though diffusion of energy may be one of many components.

    Entropy is not the same thing as disorder, either.

    Evolutionary speciation is not necessarily a shift from order towards chaos from a phylogenetic point of view.

    Lastly, evolution does not occur in a closed system. Every living organism, the phylogenetic tree and the earth itself all are open systems... with both matter and energy being transferred into and released from them.

    The Second Law of Thermodynamics argument is a red herring. Unfortunately, it cannot act as a substitute for empirical evidence of creationism or intelligent design, which has yet to be presented to the scientific community and accepted universally even across the theological spectrum.

    Creationism, like the Theory of Evolution, must stand, or fall, on the merits of its own case and supporting evidence.
     
  20. robfett

    robfett Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2002
    I mean a religious discussion that is all about religion itself.


    I guess evolution and creation fit right in. Because in essence you have to belive in the theory of evolution too.
     
  21. Darth Mischievous

    Darth Mischievous Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 1999
    I also subscribe to the concept that creation and evolution are part of the same process.

    I kind of think of it as God is the gardener, he planted the seeds for the universe to grow to what it has become. Why would God create a static universe?
     
  22. Jaina_S_Fel

    Jaina_S_Fel Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2002
    well I've always believed that evolution and creationism were not mutually exclusive and have been annoyed at those who completely renounce one or the other. I believe that God took basic materials (and I'm no scientist so don't chide me for not being technical enough) and set things in motion for chemical reactions and all that jazz and evolution ensued and when the animals and stuff were "finished" all the Garden of Eden stuff happened. And the rest is history...or religion...or whatever.
     
  23. Republic_Clone_69

    Republic_Clone_69 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2001
    This is a requisite for such a discussion:

    Please, all people who wish to debate the theory of evolution, read through this site and try to familiarize yourself with the evidence gathered to support it. Hopefully this will help prevent redundant and ill-informed arguments.

    Evidence for Evolution

     
  24. AL

    AL Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1998

    I love the way that Evolution has won over the Western World entire yet a pointless discussion on this still rages on in the US. I love, absolutely love these threads. Looking forward to the fun.
     
  25. SaberGiiett7

    SaberGiiett7 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    AL-Your right about one thing,I am going to need more help than this.
     
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