***The Existence of a "Higher Power:"--Fact or Fiction?***

Difficult to say.


Some people may label me crazy for this (heh, nothing new I guess ), but in the past year, I've seen two things in the sky that were odd, to say the least. The first one was a pattern of lights in the formation of a hamburger, when looking at it from the side. Two lines of equal length on the top and bottom, and a slightly longer line in the middle. The lights were solid (no blinking or anything). It flew very very slowly towards my house, then sort of 'hovered' in one spot, then it sped off. We live close to an airbase, but I'll say right now, this was no plane like any I've ever seen. It could have been a satellite, or perhaps something supernatural. Who knows. I say this to say that I believe some of these sightings are real. The question is, are they alien spaceships or something closer to home, that people simply aren't recognizing? I'd go with the latter.


That said, many of these - most even - are definitely fake. Hoaxes. Attempts at hoarding attention.

 

Yes. I believe wholeheartedly in extra-terrestrial beings and ESP. Everything else is fascinating, if not believable. Vampire lore fascinates me, and I don't believe that vampires exist.

However, it never hurts to have the odd stake in your briefcase...

 

May I offer you a very interesting link . Here are a few excerpts that I found to be interesting. The title of the essay is called "Why I left atheism", and I highly recommend reading the entire thing....

Also, take a look at this page

Keep in mind that there isn't anything major in this article, but there are some points that it drives home and that both sides of the debate should realize...Again I highly suggest you read the ENTIRE article to get these excerpts in the proper context.

Science can't answer everything:

When we got to the conclusion of that discussion, I asked the professor which of the particular theories was the one that is most acceptable and that satisfactorily explains the creation of matter from nothing. He leaned over the desk and looked me straight in the eye and said, "Young man, you need to learn to ask intelligent questions." That rather upset me. I did not appreciate that and I said, "Well, what do you mean?" He said, "This is not a question that a scientist tries to answer. This is a question for the philosopher or theologian, but this is not something that falls into the realm of science." I was very disturbed by that answer. I had always felt that science could ultimately answer all the questions that man had-- that there was nothing that science could not eventually take care of as far as what man might challenge and want to know about--yet this learned man, an expert in his field, said that this was an area that the scientist should not even try to answer--that it was totally beyond the capacity of science to explain and explore.

I challenge you to find a contradiction in the bible:

I read the Bible through from cover to cover four times during my sophomore year in college for the explicit purpose of finding scientific contradictions in it, By that, I mean statements in the Bible that were false that I could throw back at her to show her how ridiculous it was to believe in God. I had even decided to write a book called All the Stupidity of the Bible. Something amazing happened as I did this. As I considered and thought about these things, I found that I could not find a contradiction. I tried that whole year and years after to find a contradiction--to find some kind of scientific inaccuracy in the Bible. I just simply was not able to do it. I gave up writing the book because of a lack of material! It is amazing to me that as I talk to people, I find many who claim to be Christians and who perhaps claim to have been Christians for many years who have not read the Bible through cover to cover once. I find it hard to believe that they believe in God very much if they do not even want to know what He has to say.

Not a proof of the existence of God, but something both sides should read:

I began to recognize that hypocrisy was not confined to religion. I had the idea that every hypocrite in the world sat in a pew on Sunday morning, and thus that everybody who was not sitting in a pew was not a hypocrite. I remember the lesson I learned on this. There was a young man who would sit elbow to elbow with me arguing against the religionist from time-to-time. He was in the hospital once with a very serious ailment. I went up to visit him and as I opened the hospital door, I saw him down on his knees praying to God. I stood at the door of that hospital room screaming at him, "You hypocrite--you dirty hypocrite!," until I was escorted out of the hospital. It slowly began to dawn on me that hypocrisy is a function of humanity, not religion. You deal with hypocrites at the grocery store, at the filling station, on the job, at school and at the golf course (maybe more there than anywhere else). You do not quit buying groceries because the grocer says one thing and does another. You do not quit your job because your employers tell you to do something that they themselves would not touch with a ten-foot pole. You do not deprive y

 

Answering BUBBA from the Mormonism thread:

Y'know, there are psychological reasons for denying God, too. Denying God may be an extreme version of the Oedipus complex; "killing" one's (heavenly) father.

That is pretty amusing to read. Darth Brooks went as far as insinuating I disliked my father (for which he owes me a huge apology). I frankly do not see how this could have any bearing on my reasoning (I can't speak for anyone but me, though).

I already explained the reasons why I see that there is no God. To me, it is completely clear, and no matter of theistic circle-hopping will change it. If you want to change my mind, then present some actual evidence. Until then, just shut up, okay?

I think it's quite arrogant to assume that atheists are always capable of pefectly divorcing their thoughts from those common things that would make their thoughts suspect.

Hey, we're simply more intelligent, thats all. Smarter, more handsome. (And way more sarcastic ) (Cheez, Bubba, I'm KIDDING)

You say the actual evidence is "precisely nil," but that denies claim upon claim that the miracles have actually happened.

But there are no such evidence. No, the Bible doesn't count. Give me some actual, verified, independent evidence of anything supernatural - anything at all, in any way shape or form, then we'll talk. Until then, please be quiet.

You may chalk them all up to delusions, but to do that requires you to already believe that miracles are impossible.

Since there is no independent, actual verified evidence of a miracle ever occuring, AND there is truckloads, boat-loads, TITANIC-SIZED-OCEAN-GOING-BOAT-loads of people misunderstanding, misrepresenting or fraudulently (willingly or not) claming to see stuff that ain't there, making stuff up, or just being plain unobservant fools... my choice is QUITE simple.

Before examining the evidence, you've already brought to the table the presumption that God doesn't exist. That's begging the question.

Since dieties are conceptually flawed I see no reason to even contemplate their existnace when no single fragment of evidence exist.

Now PLEASE, any further comments IN THE PROPER THREAD

/Z

 

Zap, I'm not saying the Oedipus Complex has any bearing on your reasoning.

But surely some atheists are atheists for reasons that are not entirely rational.

There are psychological reasons to embrace God, but there are also psychological reasons to deny Him.

But there are no such evidence. No, the Bible doesn't count. Give me some actual, verified, independent evidence of anything supernatural - anything at all, in any way shape or form, then we'll talk. Until then, please be quiet.

I should be quiet, you're right, because you ask for evidence that's simply impossible to produce.

For evidence to be "independent," it must be agnostic about the existence of the supernatural, right? Well, how could such an independent source ever conclude that the supernatural actually occured? The moment it concludes such a thing, it ceases to be independent.

It's like asking for a non-Christian testimony to the Resurrection, as if someone could see the risen Son of God, know it's Him, and be unchanged.

"You say you saw the risen Christ?"

"Yes, I did, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that He is the Son of God."

"And you're not a Christian yourself?"

"Nope."

That's simply not possible.

You're being unreasonable.

 

I should be quiet, you're right, because you ask for evidence that's simply impossible to produce.

Surely not. Levitate the statue of liberty, part the red sea, resurrect some dead people, do SOMETHING. With the allmighty in your ring corner this should be a snap.

Yet nobody has been able to.

For evidence to be "independent," it must be agnostic about the existence of the supernatural, right? Well, how could such an independent source ever conclude that the supernatural actually occured? The moment it concludes such a thing, it ceases to be independent.

How so? The person was agnostic before. That is what matters. (And no, I dont want to hear any two thousand year old "evidence", spare me)

It's like asking for a non-Christian testimony to the Resurrection, as if someone could see the risen Son of God, know it's Him, and be unchanged.

We've been round this roundabout before. Show me a ressurection then we'll talk, okay?

My odds are on that you won't be able to.

/Z

 

Now you demand to personally see a miracle yourself.

I thought all you wanted was "actual, verified, independent evidence," now you want to witness the event yourself.

Which is it?

 

Hey, that was just an example.

Just PPOSTFU okay?

/Z

 

Last time I checked, Zap is independant of Christianity or anything of the short. As it is, you're just cutting a mighty thin hair there Bubba.

-P!-

 

I wonder why Bubba is wasting time here when he is overdue on the actual debate post.

/Z

 

I've been wondering that for about two weeks.

-P!-

 

Zap may be an independent source (though it's clear he's atheistic and not just agnostic), but he's not the only independent source.

He just said he wanted "anything at all, in any way shape or form." He was limiting himself to personally witnessing a miracle.



And, Zap, telling me, "Show me a ressurection then we'll talk," isn't just an example, is it?

The fact is, short of personally witnessing a miracle, you have no clear idea of what sort of evidence you would actually accept, and that gives you every opportunity to change it so that whatever evidence is presented will be rejected.


You say that I should be able to make miracles happen before your very eyes.

"With the allmighty in your ring corner this should be a snap."

God is not in my corner. I am in His, and when and where He acts is His decision alone.

Your concept of God is quite immature. As long as you demand proof of that deity's existence, yeah, you're going to remain unsatisfied.


Edit: This is really the first weekend in a while that I've been able to visit the forum for more than just a few minutes. My rebuttal will be coming soon.

 

God is not in my corner. I am in His, and when and where He acts is His decision alone.

A guy who created the whole universe really needs the help of a guy posting on a Star Wars message board. As for it being his decision, he needs better advisors, ASAP.

-P!-

 

"As long as you demand proof of that deity's existence...you're going to remain unsatisfied."

I won't over-emphasise this point, but will theists at least try and see how this single point causes difficulties for atheists and agnostics?

It's not hard to understand, is it?

 

You are just being deliberately obtuse. You know what a miracle is, and you know how to independently verify an event. Just do it, then we'll talk.

Until then, you have a debate post long overdue.

/Z

 

Trell:

A guy who created the whole universe really needs the help of a guy posting on a Star Wars message board.

He doesn't. In His love, He extends the opportunity to become one of His adopted children to all of us even though we're all unworthy of Him.


As for it being his decision, he needs better advisors, ASAP.

"You, Bubba, don't deserve to help God in doing His will..."

(I agree, by the way.)

"...but I, Trell know better than the creator of the universe how He should do His job."

Hubris.


Zap, your whining doesn't help me type my rebuttal any faster.

 

He doesn't. In His love, He extends the opportunity to become one of His adopted children to all of us even though we're all unworthy of Him.

In my experiance, he is unworthy of me.

"You, Bubba, don't deserve to help God in doing His will..."

I wasn't talking about you. Talking about angels and what not...

(I agree, by the way.)

Sad

"...but I, Trell know better than the creator of the universe how He should do His job."

Damn straight I do.

Step 1: Show folk I exist

Step 2: Stop with the rules for the sake of rules thing.

Step 3: The whole violence thing, it isn't good stop it.

Step 4: Stop with the "ME ME ME ME" attitude. It's so childlike.

Step 5: Figure out that if I'm all powerful, it shouldn't take me 6 days to create a universe, much less should I need a day of rest.

Step 6: Take a day off.

-P!-

 

Thing is, Ggods "days" are billions of years. This is his "day off"

He paged Joseph Smith and that Raëlian guy, but now he is on Zeggemah Beach

/Z

 

Hi all,

I'm new to this thread and have spent the last 10 minutes or so trying to pick it up and haven't been terribly successful. So I'm going to go all the way back to the very beginning of the thread to answer the original questions.

1) Do you believe in a Higher Power? Why or why not?

Yes, I believe in a higher power. Why? Because it's there to believe in.

2) Is is physically impossible for a higher power to exist?

No. If there is a higher power than the physical world, then the laws governing the physical world do not apply to that higher power. Why not? Because it's HIGHER. It's a bit like stuffing yourself in a computer and then claiming that computer language does not allow for the programmer to exist.

3) Have you experienced something that can ONLY be attributed to an existence of the spiritual or something beyond yourself?

No. Human beings have free will and consequently can CHOOSE any number of ways to make sense of the events around them. However, there have been events in my life that I choose to see as the clear acts of God.

I'm really interested in seeing how this thread progresses so I'll probably be dropping my two cents on a regular basis once I get a better handle on the direction and content of the thread.

 

I'm really interested in seeing how this thread progresses so I'll probably be dropping my two cents on a regular basis once I get a better handle on the direction and content of the thread.

Good luck. It seems that BOTH sides of this debate has degenerated into petty squabble.

 

Step 1: Show folk I exist

Why is it necessary for God to come down and appear before all people just to prove to the atheists that he exists?

Especially a god who is so adament about "faith" and personal relationship. These two things alone are enough to prove the existence of a higher power.

Step 2: Stop with the rules for the sake of rules thing.

What do you mean "rules for the sake of rules"? How is saying "thou shalt not kill" just a rule made up just for the sake of making a rule? Can you not see that every "rule" (as you call it) that is in the bible is for the benefit of the greater good of mankind?

Step 3: The whole violence thing, it isn't good stop it.

I don't understand this either? Are you saying God is violent? If so, how?

Step 4: Stop with the "ME ME ME ME" attitude. It's so childlike.

Again i don't understand where you came up with this.

Step 5: Figure out that if I'm all powerful, it shouldn't take me 6 days to create a universe, much less should I need a day of rest.

The longer I live, the more certain I am that the word "day" in the English bible is a poor translation which probably has a completely different meaning.

Perhaps a God who is interested in having his people "take care of themselves" created a universe that takes care of itself and need only the initial "energy" or cause (if you will) to start it.

Step 6: Take a day off.

He did. "On the seventh day, God rested."

EDIT: And one more thing: if you are so good at being God, why aren't you?

*SMILE* That was a cheap shot. But, I will tell you this much. While I hate bringing movies into a discussion like this, I will ask you to watch the movie "Bruce Almighty" in order for you to get a better perspective on what it'd be like to be God.

 

Why is it necessary for God to come down and appear before all people just to prove to the atheists that he exists?

Because otherwise he has to put up with this crap. And showing everybody he's there, will get rid of every other religion, saving lives. To many people die because of something as stupid religion.

Especially a god who is so adament about "faith" and personal relationship. These two things alone are enough to prove the existence of a higher power.

No, if it were proven there wouldn't be such a diverse opinion on it. Your idea of proof is that some have faith in him so he must be real it seems. People used to have proof in Zeus, did he used to be real?

What do you mean "rules for the sake of rules"? How is saying "thou shalt not kill" just a rule made up just for the sake of making a rule? Can you not see that every "rule" (as you call it) that is in the bible is for the benefit of the greater good of mankind?

Have no other gods before me. That one there. Proving himself would solve that one anyways. And a lot of the petty stupid rules that are in that book. I don't know many of the dumber weirder ones off hand, I know some other folk around here do though.

I don't understand this either? Are you saying God is violent? If so, how?

Pick up and read a newspaper to see what I'm talking about. If he is so uber great and powerful, making this a better world is an easy thing.

Again i don't understand where you came up with this.

Have faith in god or go to hell and burn for not believing in something with no proof. Our soul purpose in existing is to love god. Yeah, that really isn't a ME ME ME attitude there.

The longer I live, the more certain I am that the word "day" in the English bible is a poor translation which probably has a completely different meaning.

I've heard about mistranslations in the bible. "Day" never came up. It is simply wrong. No two ways about it.

Perhaps a God who is interested in having his people "take care of themselves" created a universe that takes care of itself and need only the initial "energy" or cause (if you will) to start it.

The most acceptable theory as far as I'm concerned. I still think it's bunk.

He did. "On the seventh day, God rested."

Refer to my 5th step to see the sarcasim involved.

EDIT: And one more thing: if you are so good at being God, why aren't you?

That was just dumb. Give me uber magic powers and I would be.

*SMILE* That was a cheap shot. But, I will tell you this much. While I hate bringing movies into a discussion like this, I will ask you to watch the movie "Bruce Almighty" in order for you to get a better perspective on what it'd be like to be God.

Haven't seen it but wouldn't mind too. But truth be told, I will not take anything like that out of a comedy staring Jim Carrey.

-P!-

 

Surely not. Levitate the statue of liberty, part the red sea, resurrect some dead people, do SOMETHING. With the allmighty in your ring corner this should be a snap. Yet nobody has been able to.

First: if someone had done, it wouldn't be him, it would be God. And your phrase "nobody has been able to" is quite a lie (or uninformed assumption). I'll find the website for you. At my former church, I've witnessed a lot of miracles that were awesome to see. Most of them were people with diseases or ailments. We had a couple people get out of their wheel-chairs and run around. We had people with asthma, psoriasis, and other things I'd never heard of. But the only time there were miracles was when there were nonbelievers in our church. I think that God uses signs and wonders to convince people that he really is God and that he exists. I know a lot of missionaries that see miracles all the time where they minister. It is awesome!

The Bible says not to test God. I went through a phase in my life when I didn't want to believe. I kept asking God for signs and wonders, but none came. Then later I realized all of the signs and wonders, that I really had seen, but I contributed them to coincidences.

In response to the UFO thing, I think they are just new military stuff. Of course I coudld be wrong. Why would the military test stuff out so everyone could see it? I have no clue. Maybe they are making a cloaked craft and they want to see (or not see) if anyone can see it. Who knows? I doubt there is another sentient species out there. If there were, there is a pretty good chance that we are far more technologically developed than them. I haven't done a lot of research on the subject, but I'll check into it. My knowledge is more suited for Creation Theory.

 

We need one of those shows devoted to amateur recordings of miraculous events.

"America's Funniest Pentacostal Church Miracles."

I mean, these miracles are a dime-a-dozen, right? There ought to be some real comedy gold captured on video.

 

I mean, these miracles are a dime-a-dozen, right?

I agree that "miracles" today are really not that impressive but are overhyped (just watch Benny Hinn). I can say with some certainty that I believe these really aren't miracles.

However, there ARE cases where things just can't be explained using rational thought. Of course, I now have the burden of showing you proof.

Ah, I'll get around to it sometime...