Senate The Expanded Universe Senate

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by Sinrebirth, Sep 1, 2012.

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  1. CrazyOldHermit Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2007
    star 4
    We need to do a balancing act of sorts.

    Set some guidelines but not to the point that people feel they are unfair.

    Meditate on this, I will.
  2. zark Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2009
    star 4
    Be careful that the meditation does not lead to complacency and inaction.
    CrazyOldHermit likes this.
  3. General Immodet Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    Soon, our Vice-Chancellor will post "There is a disturbance in the Force"...
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  4. CrazyOldHermit Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2007
    star 4
    To be eligible I suggest that members post at least two times a week and be a member of a fanclub or a regular poster to a non-fanclub thread. (Games, Discussions, etc.) Some people may not see a club that is to their liking, but may still enjoy participating in other ways. I don't want to make this too arduous.

    I also suggest the Senators keep a current list of their thread's membership. I know that clubs like the X-Wing and NJO/LotF clubs used to do this, and more than likely still do. I also suggest they go over their membership lists and update them monthly to keep them current.

    Whomever the GM is of a game can do the same thing for their thread. They are "essentially" the Senator of those threads after all. If a game does not have a GM, then one needs to be put in place.

    I do detect a disturbance in my stomach. I'm hungry. :p
  5. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    I can't see threads like the NUS or Wes FC having a membership list. It's too restrictive.

    Senators should perhaps confirm participants of their threads who qualify to vote?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  6. Runjedirun Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    So far we have 5 suggestions and I am adding a 6th:


    1) So, I think not only fanclubs should be represented, but also all popular threads such as games. @General Immodet

    2) Adding in game managers would be the only thing that I would change. I think general elections would be too big of a hassle with the need for restrictions.

    GM restrictions should be, IMO:
    -Long term (6+ months, continuing on for multiple rounds.)
    -Game managers should be fairly active around the EUC, as well as in their thread.
    -Game socks can't vote. @Admiral Volshe



    3) I'd propose either membership in a fanclub or regular participation in a non-club thread, perhaps defined as minimum five (maybe ten) posts over a period of a month? @Rebecca_Daniels

    4) Has a user posted in the last 3 months?
    Has a user posted at least once a week over the last month? @zark


    5) To be eligible I suggest that members post at least two times a week and be a member of a fanclub or a regular poster to a non-fanclub thread. (Games, Discussions, etc.) Some people may not see a club that is to their liking, but may still enjoy participating in other ways. I don't want to make this too arduous. @CrazyOldHermit

    6) Personally I think we need slightly stricter qualifications. Becca mentioned new users being turned off by not being able to vote, but I believe it would encourage them to hang around and join more discussions. We have elections every six months that's not long to wait to vote. I think you should be a regular poster in at least 3 threads/fan clubs for 6 months.



    Personal comments:

    Volshe's suggestion is by far the easiest and one I like a lot.

    General Immodet how would you suggest representing other threads? Same senator system as current fanclub senator representation? Something else?

    Aside from the first two my main concern is how would we keep track of who is eligible to vote? The only way I see is for those who want to be considered to be eligible to PM the Chancellor (me) and I'll believe any name I recognize. If I don't recognize someone I will have to ask for examples of posts.



    Discussion. If you like any of the above thoughts let me know I'd like to narrow it down to two of them! I'll put the most popular 2 up against the current system and start the voting one week from tomorrow.
  7. General Immodet Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    The hosts of threads which are popular (most of them are game threads) should have the opportunity to join the Senate as Senator.
    Since it has not been decided yet which changes will be made, I do not know whether those restrictions would have to be adapted.
    Runjedirun likes this.
  8. Runjedirun Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    I'm going to give this until Monday. So if anyone has an opinion on which proposed option they like, please speak up. Otherwise I'll pick two (I will not pick my own) and we will vote on one of those two or keeping the current system.

    Voting will start on Tuesday. Senators will vote in thread. You can see page one of this thread for voting rules, no I will not vote twice. Below is a list of current Senators.

    1. Sinrebirth - NSO
    2. Swan - GoL - Falcon - Aide to GoL (will be voting in Swan's absence)
    3. Hermit - Vice Chancellor
    4. Zarks - Chancellor
    5. Volshe - WJFC
    6. Mandalore the Uniter - Mandalorian FC
    7. Addie - NJOFC
    8. Sey - NUS
    9. T-65 - BMC
    10. Katana - X-wing FC
    11. Immodet - Imperial Remnant
    12. Adam - Twin Suns
    13. Mitth_Fisto - Chiss FC
    14. Bardan_Jusik - The Rancor Pit
    15. Becca - KOTOR/SWTOR fanclub

    I'll send out a pm to all Senators later today or this weekend to make sure everyone knows.
  9. Adalia-Durron Former RSA/EUC Empress.

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2003
    star 10
    Um? 4. Zarks - Chancellor? Isn't that you now Runner?
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  10. Runjedirun Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    Yea, possibly, last I checked it was me.

    My bad, did I mention how tired I am today :p
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  11. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    And the Sith are not partaking in democracy currently.


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  12. Rebecca_Daniels Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2006
    star 5
    I actually had a rebuttal to all this but I've just been absolutely exhausted and busy. I'll see what I can do later this weekend.
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  13. The_Zeltron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2010
    star 6
    Hello, everyone. I was asked by my Padawan, @General Valerian, to inform you that he has been extremely busy with DRL, but anticipates being back on the boards as usual after the end of the month. That is all.
  14. Runjedirun Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    Good thing I gave myself the whole weekend.

    I just sent out the following to all senators, hopefully the message will get the attention of any who have been absent so we get as many votes as possible:

    Starting Tuesday I'd like each of you to vote on one of the following options in the Senate thread. I've decided there's no reason a GM of a game can't be a Senator. Social thread's like the BMC and Rancor Pit have senators if a game wants to be represented they need no more than stand up and say so (by posting in the senate thread who they are and who they represent).

    1) Either membership in a fanclub or regular participation in a non-club thread, perhaps defined as minimum five (maybe ten) posts over a period of a month.

    2)Members post at least two times a week and be a member of a fanclub or a regular poster to a non-fanclub thread. (Games, Discussions, etc.)

    3) Keep things as they are, GM's can be senators.

    Questions? Please let me know :)
    I will post Tuesday morning about 7am Eastern to open voting. I'm hoping we can wrap up voting and have a solution by the end of the week. So we can move on to something more fun ;)
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  15. s65horsey Otter-loving Former EUC Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2006
    star 7
    I'm confused are we doing away with the old rules completely if we pick either 1 or 2? So...fan clubs no longer need to have 250 posts to join the Senate? As a current Senator I need to make sure I post 2 times a week? That's...idk...I just have a problem with that. I'm not a prolific poster right and DRL is a cruel mother.

    I know new members have an issue with perhaps not being a Senator right away but people need to prove that they're willing to stick around before I want them voting on issues that impact the entire EUC. I guess I just feel like the EUS isn't broken. We have really active Senators right now and threads that need people to represent them so it isn't like there isn't a thread if someone wants to be a Senator. We haven't had 15 Senators/Chancellor/Vice in idk how long so I have a hard time fixing something when I think we've already done that. I remember when we had like 5 people participating.

    You also can't just decide there is no reason a GM can't be a Senator. A Game is not a Fan Club or a Social thread and we have a Constitution.

    I don't think there should be Senators of people representing themselves. That's not what the EUS was created for. We're groups of people coming together. Why would anyone represent a Fan Club if they can be a Senator for themselves? (Or am I reading #1 incorrectly but it is sounding like you don't need to represent anything to be a Senator you just need to post and then you can be a Senator for yourself.)

    Options 1 and 2 are actually a far greater discussion than what I've seen so far. Now maybe they're just worded poorly and if that is the case that's fine we can fix that but as they're written right now they're completely changing the purpose of the Senate and I don't think that's right at all.
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  16. Rebecca_Daniels Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2006
    star 5
    I'm going to take ten minutes to get my thoughts down, even though I don't really have ten minutes.

    My point when it came to all this was to allow regular users who either (a) don't want to be a Senator or (b) don't have any way to be a Senator but want to have a say in specifically the Chancellorship voting. They would not become Senators but have voting rights in order to elect a Chancellor. They would not be able to vote in constitutional changes and other Senator-specific votes, or at least that is what I think would be best.

    After some thought I think I agree with Runner's initial suggestion of a 6 month waiting period and regular involvement in the EUC. This means they'll have been through at least one election by the time they can vote and we can see that they're involved. Bringing back having Ministers in order to keep track of who is and isn't allowed to vote would make the most sense to me, or having Senators take care of the approval process for their own thread members.

    That isn't entirely true. There may be threads that need representation, but people generally don't want to represent threads they're not participating in. If it weren't for the temporary opening in the KOTOR club, I'd have nowhere I could help represent. There's also this issue that's been in the constitution and would, if we actually follow the constitution, make a good number of the Senators obsolete.

    "4. A thread is no longer eligible for membership if it remains inactive for more than 14 days."

    How many threads are that active? From a quick look, the NJOFC is out, the Thrawn club is out, the Wedge club is out, XWFC is out, and there's probably more still. There are other references in the Constitution to things that no longer exist (upper/lower houses, anyone?) so in all honesty the whole thing needs a rewrite.

    I, personally, don't feel the Senate works anymore, not when our population is so low and so many threads are inactive. Having a leader and thread representatives makes sense, but if we're going to encourage just going out and finding a thread that needs a Senator and taking the job then that's not the Senate I want to be a part of. I did it, but I don't like it, and I'd happily go back to being a member-at-large if I was also able to have a say in who we pick as a Chancellor and what happens. And sure, I can come in here and say it, but my opinion has no weight if I have no vote.

    Regardless of how this turns out, when @General Valerian returns I will be leaving the Senate since I don't have time to be a Senator right now.
    Last edited by Rebecca_Daniels, Feb 23, 2014
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  17. Runjedirun Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    Options one and two would just allow people who post more often the opportunity to vote. It would not make them a Senator.

    I never knew it had gotten that low, makes me feel a lot better about the state of things now, thanks for sharing.

    Good point, totally my bad in trying to figure all this out. I am new here and I appreciate the feed back.



    I think I answered this one in the first question, but let me know if I didn't.

    I copy and pasted them, they are suggestions from our citizens. Citizens who think more than just senators should be able to vote. That's what we are debating here, should more than just senators be allowed to vote.

    Thanks for taking the time Becca!

    I agree with a lot of what Becca is saying I think about half of our senators would no longer have voting rights if we went by the Constitution. That's why there may be a call to change the way things are. But my main concern is the one Sinre brought up. How would we keep track of who can vote and who can't.

    The senate system works it's easy to figure out who can vote, but in a sense it's not working because several senators are representing inactive fan clubs. We can and probably should hold off on a vote and discuss this further. Keep talking! I think this is good!
  18. General Immodet Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    Maybe users who meet the requirements should only be allowed to vote on whoever becomes Chancellor?
    That way, there still is a difference between a random user and a fan club/game Senator.
    Only Senators and game representatives would be allowed to run for Chancellor and vote on certain issues.
  19. Adalia-Durron Former RSA/EUC Empress.

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2003
    star 10
    Not sure on the exact rules, they still need discussing, but I do believe we need change. I am listening and taking everyone's thoughts in.
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  20. Bardan_Jusik Mand'alor - Manager of the EUC, SWC and Anthology

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2009
    star 10
    I am in disagreement with the idea that only Senators could run for Chancellor. I myself ran for (and won the Chancellorship) from a position as a "mere user" who represented no thread as at the time the Mandalorian thread was not taking part in the Senate. While I do believe that only Senators should be able to vote, I believe restrictions on who can run are ill advised.

    [IMG]
  21. Falcon Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 9
    Here's my 2 cents. I would keep things the way they are with minor changes. Stating you have to be a member of two or more clubs in my opinion is pushing it and is a complete turn off. But having 250 posts before qualifying for the senate I can see being a complete turn off as well.

    New groups take time to gain members and gain that amount of posts. It will only discourage others from pariticipating.

    Game Masters should be allowed to vote and help change the EU for the better where they see fit.

    Bucketheads right, he wasn't a senator when he was elected as chancellor. I don't think you need to be a senator to run for the position but can prove you have what it takes to be the chancellor....
    Last edited by Falcon, Feb 26, 2014
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  22. CrazyOldHermit Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2007
    star 4
    I was also elected to VC twice and was not a Senator. I agree with Falcon and Bardan on that point.

    Discussions need to continue. We are not ready to implement changes,if any, at this time, in my opinion. Hearing everyone out is the way to go right now.
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  23. Mandalore The Uniter Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2007
    star 2
    Ok, now that I've had some time to read this (while I'm also writing a blog post BTW...yay multi-tasking!) I feel like I need to speak up here as this is a topic I am HIGHLY educated in.

    I have a two personal sayings that should be applied at the very start: "Some Democracy is a good thing, too much Democracy leads to chaos." and "Leadership qualities are never bound to age or seniority."

    Firstly, my advice is to not over-complicate what seems to me like an fairly uncomplicated process currently. There is a reason why the EUC has a Senate, and if you begin to water down the importance it has...well then you take away something special. That doesn't mean it has to be "exclusive", but if you want to encourage people to be involved more or to feel more empowered then you should start with the process for becoming a Senator. This way the empowerment is more localized and personal, and it doesn't over-complicate the process for which things get done here in the EUC. Allowing everyone that meets a minimum criteria the power to vote for the top-level position is crazy and dangerous, because then it becomes a popularity contest for the masses. "Chancellor" should always be seen as the light of stability, chosen by the representatives that were in turn chosen by those they represent.

    In the Mandalorian Mercs Costume Club, we use a similar method of governance as I've described above (based primarily on Mando culture though). Clan members elect their local leader annually, then the Clan Leaders annually elect the Regional Commander for their respective regions to represent them within the larger Command Council structure. This empowers the members and officers at every level, without having a drawn-out complicated process that ends up turning into a popularity contest. It also empowers each elected position, because the election-base is smaller (similar to an electorate-style vote) but the accountability is held at every level. Lastly, it keeps the central governance strong while also keeping the bureaucracy from becoming too big and ineffectual.

    Soooooo...if you want to change something, I would look at only changing the way Senators are made by extending voting powers to fan club members for Senatorial elections ONLY. If you want every EUC member to have a vote, then your only making your Senators ineffectual. Also, by forcing Fan Groups to vote for their Senators then you are also taking care of the "requirements to vote" position also. Being an elected Senator should be the only requirement for voting in the EUC, because that person is now trusted by those who elected them to bring up their issues and vote in their best interest.

    I totally understand the reasoning behind wanting to open voting up to everyone, it's a natural idea and it *can* work. However, in most cases you'll find that people become complacent and end up not voting. This ends up with the wrong sort of people getting into leadership positions, and then things falling apart quickly. When I wrote the MMCC's Codex (charter) 7 years ago, I actually looked at the charters of our 2 big sisters the 501st and Rebel Legion. Then I started asking members and officers of these respective organizations about what does and doesn't work in their leadership, and what they would change if they could. That really helped give me the knowledge to craft a more stable style of governance for Mando Mercs, that has worked and evolved both in practicality and stability over the past 7 years.

    Hopefully my ramblings will be some help. :p
  24. Runjedirun Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
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  25. s65horsey Otter-loving Former EUC Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2006
    star 7
    I agree with Mandalore.

    I don't yet see a need for change.

    I see a need to go back to how things used to be and utilize the Senators and the Ministry. Did Runny and Crazy even choose a ministry this time? There's supposed to be someone whose job is to make sure the Senators and the Fan Clubs are in compliance with posting in order to vote. I think we've gotten away from that and haven't really used those positions as we were supposed to.

    I think part of this is that we got a lot of new users all at once (essentially once people could actually register again) and those users are the ones who happily stepped into roles that the older users were looking to take a break from. They've done a fabulous job of promoting the EUS and increasing membership. I was considering leaving and not even being involved anymore towards the end of the old boards because people weren't participating and it was frustrating. I love the fact that I didn't have to do that because new people breathed life into this place. You all have no idea how thankful I am for that.

    However, in the process we did lose some of what helped uncomplicate this process in the use of the Ministry.
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