Saga The Expanded Universe without the Expanded Universe

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by DarthPhilosopher, Aug 23, 2011.

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  1. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    What, if we completely disregard the EU, is implied by the films to occur both at either end of the Saga (pre-I, post-VI) and during the Saga. And, furthermore, how do you interpret these.

    Here are a couple:

    Defeat of the Sith: It is implied that a 'millennium' prior to The Phantom Menace that the Sith were seemingly resoundingly defeated by the Jedi and believed to be completely destroyed. Interpretation: One thousand years prior to the films the Sith have the same basic function as the Jedi within their own Empire, except that they are the aristocracy ruling their nation through an authoritarian regime. They launch a war of conquest against the Jedi and Republic and are subsequently defeated. They are believed all destroyed, however Darth Bane escapes and establishes the 'Rule of Two', vowing to destroy the Republic and the Jedi and reestablish their Empire on the ruins of the Republic.

    Sith rule: Palpatine also says that the Sith had once before ruled the galaxy. It is thus implied that at least once previously the Sith had either destroyed the Republic or was much more powerful than it. Interpretation: The Sith, through a war of conquest defeated the Jedi and Republic forcing them into an armistice and eventual peace. The Republic however, many years later, sought to liberate the galaxy, eventually destroying both the Sith and their Empire.

    Re-establishment of the Republic: It is implied that, following the Battle of Endor, that the Republic is re-established. Interpretation: A war ensues with Endor being the Empires 'Stalingrad'. The Republic is established following the Battle of Endor, with many planet and military forces (including Imperial) aligning with the Republic. Eventually the Republic captures Coruscant and liberates much of the galaxy. Only when defeat is inevitable does the Empire sue for peace.

    Other topics:

    1. Restoration of the Jedi Order
    2. Sifo-Dyas
    3. The Thousand-Year-Ago Formation of the Republic
    4. The Birth of Anakin
    5. The Fall of Dooku
    6. Creation of Grievous
  2. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    The (canon) Sith backstory was created by Lucas. They destroyed each other, the Jedi were not involved.
  3. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Why do they want revenge against the Jedi then.

    This is what I mean. Elaborate on your interpretation.

    This is an amended version of my interpretation taking the above information into account:

    Interpretation: One thousand years prior to the films the Sith have the same basic function as the Jedi within their own Empire, except that they are the aristocracy ruling their nation through an authoritarian regime. They launch a war of conquest against the Jedi and Republic and are subsequently defeated through their own corruption and infighting. Their Empire begins to break apart and, utilizing the unstable situation, the Republic and Jedi manage to defeat the fractured Empire. They are believed all destroyed, however Darth Bane escapes and establishes the 'Rule of Two', vowing to destroy the Republic and the Jedi and reestablish their Empire on the ruins of the Republic.
  4. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    What's funny is your interpretations are basically what happens in the EU.

    The only difference is the Sith ruled an Empire smaller than the Republic, and the Republic was never entirely defeated.
    (as far as we know, the upcoming MMO might change that, but I doubt it)
  5. MasterDillon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2010
    star 2
    I applaud the OP for creative thinking, but this is a terrible idea. EU has helped shaped Star Wars to what it is today, and has only made it more popular. The movies are over, done now Lucas is moving towards bringing Star Wars to television. Bright days are ahead though let's hope Star Wars won't end up where Star Trek did but I don't think it will becasue Star Wars has a magic that no other sci-fi adventure has.
  6. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Not exactly. There are significant differences in my opinion. The EU goes off on tangents.

    When did I say I didn't like the EU? This is a process of evaluating what the films say about the 'Expanded Universe' without actually taking into account the established Expanded Universe.
  7. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    An Expanded Universe of my own creation would take a completely different tack and focus also, probably mainly, on non-Force-user characters and events. The Force is an important part of the setting, but my personal take is more like the "power of positive thinking" or "qi" or "luck" for that matter, so while it'd always be part of it, I'd love to see some love for regular-guy characters like Boshek, Wedge, the Bothan spies, random Mos Eisley resident #7, etc. Maybe not those particular characters, but what they represent.

    The established EU has expanded theses type of characters, but recently seems to have shifted focus a bit - so this could be read as a comment on the actual EU as well.
  8. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Good call. There's a handful of interview grabs & the like from GL which hint at such things, but they do tend to contradict each other.

    For my money, I'd take Shadows of the Empire as relatively canon - it was very much an LFL product, despite being EU, & GL did seem to have a hand in it, if only to veto certain things.

    Post-ROTJ, GL has established to a certain extent that:
    - Han & Leia are 'together'
    - the Republic is rebuilt
    - Luke gets a girl

    Pre-TPM, GL's backstory regarding the Sith simply states that the Sith destroyed themselves through infighting, one Sith Lord remained - Darth Bane - who established the Rule Of Two. Specifics regarding the nature of the Sith's actual rule over the galaxy don't really exist beyond the implications in ROTS. I imagine it would have been a brief, chaotic reign during what was probably constant war against the Republic. 'The Sith Empire' was probably about as solid an Empire as the Third Reich.
  9. Game3525 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2008
    star 4
    Giving what we know now, and how the saga turned out, I would have done the post-ROTJ much differently.

    -The Empire would be done with after the Battle of Endor
    -Han and Leia would have been married directly after Endor, and a year later would have a one son.
    -Luke sets out to restore the Jedi Order, doesn't get married, grows a beard and becomes and Obi-Wan type character.
    -Lando retires and opens a casino on Coruscant.
    -The New Republic is established.

    That would most likely cover the first 5-6 years after ROTJ. After that I would do what Lt. Cmdr. Thrawn suggested and shift the focus from the Big Three onto the lesser/original characters and I would use the next 15-17 years in the timeline to expand on them. Luke, Han, and Leia would appear in secondary roles in some of the stories.

    After that I would do a series that focus on the next generation in Luke's Jedi Order, the main character would Han and Leia's 20 year old son, Jedi Knight Anakin Solo. The conflict would most likely deal with the Hutts and the issue of slavery. Since TCW/movie wise they seem like the last major power in the galaxy.

    Hmph, I might turn this into fanfiction.
    [face_laugh]
  10. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Good thread... and I say this as someone who likes EU. I don't see this sort of speculation as an attack on existing EU at all, just an inquiry into what the films imply and allow for.

    How about Leia's development as a Jedi? I think the implication of "there is another" is that Luke must also teach her everything he knows, probably not long after the end of RotJ. That's one thing that's very different in established EU than it is in my mental EU. I think Leia was meant to be the second Jedi master of the new order, and perhaps she and Luke could have each had other students afterwards.

    Wait, really? Is that something Lucas said in an interview? (I honestly don't pay as much attention to these things as I should nowadays.) Or do you mean because of Luke's duty to carry on the Jedi order, you think it's implied he has to have children?
  11. Game3525 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2008
    star 4
    Lucas has said in the past he doesn't see Luke getting married....but that doesn't rule out he wouldn't have kids.
  12. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    Luke: Who said anything about love? I'm just trying to get you into bed.
    Mara: You're such an arse.

    ...

    Cookiees for anyone who gets that.
  13. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    This image was formative for my EU concept in the 90s, along with the more commonly linked image of Leia with the twins.

    [image=http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/3848/jedileiagalaxy3.jpg]
  14. BobaFett99 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2011
    Shadows of the Empire explained somethings about Return of The Jedi, Such as how Leia got that bounty hunter outfit in the beginning and I believe Prince Xizor was the one who gave Emperor Palpatine the plans to the Death Star 2. I could be wrong though.
  15. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4
    OK this is long. I mean really long. I don't expect people to read the whole thing (much appreciated for those that do) so I've divided it into sections.

    This is how I see it, using revisionist "generation = year" in Obi-speak :p

    2000-1100 years before the Saga:

    - Hyperspace travel allows for worlds to become connected but there is no galactic government. Interstellar wars are common as various worlds fight for dominance in their sector.
    - Hyperspace allows people from all over the galaxy to come together and discover the mysteries of a strange energy field that they come to call "The Force." The Order of the Jedi Bendu is formed.
    - Jedi Monks study the Force. The concepts of Ashla and Bogan, light and dark, are explored. A group within the order breaks away, intent on discovering the potential of the Dark Side.
    - Some time later, this faction returns to the galaxy, calling themselves Dark Lords Of The Sith. Armed with strange powers, they sweep through the Outer Rim, uniting worlds under their rule and going on to conquer the galaxy. The Jedi Monks are pacifists. They do nothing and trust in the Force to deliver the galaxy out of darkness.
    - The Sith rule for at least a hundred years. Their rule isn't based on central government. Rather, powerful Sith Lords control sections of the galaxy. They constantly fight each other using slave armies trying to gain more power while Sith from within their own ranks attempt to rise up and defeat the Sith Lords. This ensures that the strongest Sith is always the one to lead.
    - Two prophecies are made. The first is that a child born of the Force will rise to bring balance. This prophecy is held by the Jedi. The other is a Sith prophecy that says a child born of the Force will rise to bring order to the galaxy.

    1100-1005 years before the Saga:

    - Something happens with the Jedi that finally forces them into action. They put aside the monicker of Jedi Monks and become Jedi Knights, realising that the darkness in the galaxy due to Sith rule must give way to the light before all hope is lost.
    - The Jedi have no army. So they start on a single world ruled by a minor Sith Lord. They sweep into the capital and destroy the Sith before they can react to the attack. The Jedi then free the slave army on that world and many of the slaves willingly join the Jedi army, wanting to end the Sith's rule forever.
    - This happens on a few worlds. While Hyperspace routes are being mapped all the time, galactic communication is slow. The Sith believe that the attacks on various Outer Rim worlds are just a result of Sith Lords fighting over territory.
    - With each liberated planet, the Jedi army grows in strength. The Jedi are using similar tactics to those used by the Sith when they first took over the galaxy. By the time the Sith realise what's happening, the Jedi have a strong foothold in the Outer Rim.
    - The Sith rally together, combining their forces to create a "Grand Army of the Sith" to combat the Jedi threat. But even as they fight the Jedi, they continue to fight amongst themselves.
    - Word of the Jedi assault spreads across the galaxy. Hope begins to creep back into the minds and hearts of slaves. Many slaves rebel against their Sith masters as more and more slave armies fighting the Jedi ally themselves with the Jedi Knights in the hope that victory will mean freedom. The Sith are finding that they can no longer trust their slave armies and begin transitioning towards using droid armies.
    - During this time, a Sith Lord named Darth Bane rises through the ranks, eventually becoming Supreme Commander of the Sith's combined forces.
    - Bane understands that the Sith can't win. The Jedi are liberating world after world, more and more slaves are revolting against Sith rule and the Sith continue to fight amongst themselves.
    - Bane takes drastic action and programs the droid armies to turn on their Sith commanders. The Sith Lords are wiped out. Only one Sith survives the attack and Bane takes her as his apprentice.
    - Bane creates a new system for the Sith to survive, a rule of two. A mas
  16. EntechednReformatted Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2009
    star 1
    My view of the broad strokes of pre-TPM history is a cyclical history of events similar to those portrayed in the saga, and I came to this conclusion by just taking some movie dialogue at nearly face value, rather than trying to figure out how to explain a mistake.

    Palpatine states that the Republic has stood for 1000 years. Obi-Wan states that the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic for 1000 generations. If both statements are taken at face value, then to me that suggests that what we have always thought of as The Old Republic (with a capital "T" and a capital "O") was, in fact, a series of Republics. (There is a line by Saesee Tiin in TCW about how there have not been battles like this since the days of the old Republic, and that's a telling line considering that the Republic had not yet fallen. Still I think the case can be made without evidence from the animated show.) I think the phrase "the old Republic" is not a proper name, but simply refers instead to the previous Republic.

    If the history of the galaxy is viewed as a series of Republics, separated by brief periods of dictatorial tyranny or other lapses of democracy, then both Palpatine's statement about the age of the Republic and Obi-Wan's statement about the role of the Jedi over the past thousand generations work. 20,000 years ago, the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic. 15,000 years ago, the Jedi were still the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic, but it might not have been the same Republic. 10,000 years ago the Jedi were also serving as guardians of peace and justice in the galactic Republic. That has been their role for 20,000 years. That does not necessarily imply that any one particular consitutional government has stood for that entire time. Perhaps Obi-Wan should have been more precise with his wording: "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old Republics." Then again, I'm sure he wasn't expecting his words to be parsed by legions of obsessive fans, and he also probably expected that Luke had at least a passing familiarity with basic facts of galactic history. There must have been schools on Tatooine, after all.

    We also know that the Sith had ruled the galaxy in the past, both from Palpatine's statement to that effect and Windu's statement that the oppression of the Sith will never return. It's easy to conclude, based on the stated age of the Republic and the timeframe given for the supposed extinction of the Sith, that the basic cycle last happened 1000 years prior to TPM. The Sith were able to take control of the galaxy, causing the old Republic (i.e. the previous Republic) to collapse. Eventually the Jedi were able to overthrow the Sith, in the process apparently destroying them for good, and then reestablish the galactic Republic. My view is that this basic sequence of events has played out repeatedly through the history of the GFFA, but I have to admit that there is really only evidence that it happened once before: 1000 years before TPM.

    Now, when I say that GFFA history is cyclical, I don't mean to imply that it's perfectly cyclical. I don't think that there was another "Chosen One" 1000 years before TPM, or anything like that, and undoubtedly the Sith used different strategies and tactics to seize control of the galaxy in the past. (You wouldn't think the Jedi would fall for exactly the same trick twice.) Perhaps a pair of Sith Lords (always two there are) were able to assemble a large number of discontented star systems into something similar to the Separatist movement, which they used to conquer the old Republic. That would explain why the Jedi fell so thoroughly into Sidious's trap. Once Dooku revealed his Sith allegiance, the Jedi seem to have assumed that the Sith were planning on using the Separatist Confederacy to overthrow the Republic. Perhaps they made that assumption because that is exactly the strategy that the Sith used, successfully, 1000 ye
  17. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Starlog: Will you return to the Star Wars universe?

    Lucas: Hopefully, I will someday be doing the next three Star Wars, but I'm not sure when. The next three would take place 20 or 30 years before the three films they're celebrating here today. I'll do the first trilogy first. There are nine (films) floating around there somewhere. I'll guarantee that the first three are pretty much organised in my head, but the other three are kind of out there somewhere.

    Starlog: Why didn't you give Luke a girl?

    Lucas: You haven't seen the last three yet.


    - Starlog, Issue 127, February 1988
  18. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    Pretty much everything we need to know about the Sith is provided in the films. We know that they are similar to the Jedi (most likely were a splinter sect at some point far in the past), they have their own "look" (mostly dress in black, often have yellow eyes and red lightsabers), we know that they see the Force as a tool to be used for personal gain, we know that they were once in a position of power ("the oppression of the Sith will never return"), we can assume that they blame the Jedi for their fall from power ("at last we will have revenge" and the title "Revenge of the Sith"), we know that there hasn't been a full-scale war for a thousand years, and we know that the Sith disappeared a thousand years ago, so we can piece together that the Sith were defeated a thousand years ago by the Jedi, and that was the beginning of the Republic.

    Also, we learn that they operate in pairs, and throughout the films we see that they are not able to exist in groups (Dooku plots against Sidious, Sidious turns on Dooku, Anakin plots against Sidious), and this continues to the Original Trilogy (Sidious and Vader plotting against each other once Luke appears). So, even though the words "Sith" and "Darth Sidious" weren't spoken in the OT, we still had the foundation layed for these Dark Siders.

    A lot of the others stuff is pretty much up to your own imagination. I always assumed that Sifo-Dyas had either died of natural causes or on some Jedi peacekeeping mission, and that Dooku had assumed his identity to contact the Kaminoans. But I later found out that in the actual EU, Dooku has a relationship with Sify-Dyas. So, there is the canon EU, and there is what you imagine for the backstory.

    The only thing that has ever caused a problem for me, without resorting to the EU, is Kenobi's "thousand generations" line, versus Palpatine's "thousand years" line. I just assume that the Jedi have been servants of the Republic for a thousand generations, but the current Republic is a thousand years old. Before that, there was war and chaos, the age of the Sith Lords, who couldn't get along with each other. The Jedi capitalized on this and removed them from power.
  19. obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2005
    star 3
    How awesome would it be if Lucas actually decided to do 7-9? He says the story is over, but proof is out there that he has an idea of what may take place afterwards. I understand his reasons for saying what he does these days, though. But really, they could take place 100s of years after Jedi. Mark Hamil could return as Luke and be 300 years old. There's definitely some interesting themes that can be displayed, especially considering what Lucas touched on with the prequel trilogy.
  20. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    I'm still of the belief that whatever few actual ideas GL had for Eps VII-IX (apart from the overall plot being about the rebuilding of the Republic) were poached for use in the PT, or rendered completely redundant by developments in ROTJ and the PT.
    Any ideas for characters, specific scenarios or the like (if he actually came up with any) would have been ripe for the plucking while he tried to flesh out a trilogy that only had about one film's worth of plot thought through.
  21. sith_rising Force Ghost

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    Jan 7, 2004
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    I think cramming the Leia-as-other-Skywalker into Jedi at the last minute killed what could have been a fantastic arc for the third Trilogy, especially if Luke's twin had been seperated from him at the end of Episode 3, remained a mystery throughout 4-6, and was the focus of Episodes 7-9.
  22. obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Knight

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    Jun 10, 2005
    star 3
    I wouldn't be surprised if this was the original case.
  23. sith_rising Force Ghost

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    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    It would have been a great opportunity to end the Prequels with a huge cliffhanger. Everyone would eagerly be anticipating the first Episode 7 teaser trailer, and I'm sure the net would be blowing up with "who will be cast for Luke's sister" threads lol.
  24. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    The Brackett draft of ESB has Nellith Skywalker being trained across the galaxy, to be revealed later on. This is completely dropped in subsequent versions, though draft after draft, they rebuild the idea of an "Other" from Yoda and Ben having to "find" another back to there again already being one.

    Lucas, by 1979 (iirc) thought of the Other as a character who would appear in a sequel trilogy. I think he said something like "It's about the character who survives Star Wars III and his adventures." The problem is, by SW3 he most likely meant RotJ, as the films at that time were often described in that sort of fashion. So while it's possible an "Other" would have been revealed in a cliffhanger in a prequel-Episode III (and that'd be an effective method of storytelling for sure), there's little evidence that such was planned. I'm not sure who the Other was supposed to be before Leia, but between the N. Skywalker conception and Leia the character seems totally undefined, besides being possibly male?
  25. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    zombie's of the opinion that "the character who survives SW3 & his adventures" refers to Luke, indicating that when he made this quote, GL's vision of the Sequel Trilogy was the later 'reunion' version, which would basically follow an aged OT cast, rather than focusing on a totally new set of characters.

    I'm not sure what to think - I do believe an older Luke would appear in Ep VII at least, probably in much the same sort of role as Obi-Wan did in Star Wars, & Qui-Gon in TPM.

    It's really, really difficult to pin down just what GL ever had in mind for the ST, as so many snippets contradict each other, & it's most likely that at any given time, his 'vision' included such contradictions, as he hadn't actually sat down & sorted anything through.
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