Lit The extent of Palpatine's Vong Knowledge

I want to take the position that Palp's knew something about them, but not enough because the Far Outsiders kept themselves out of view for an extended period of time. I think that part of the reason why there wasn't much information about them was because they really didn't know. They knew a bit, but nothing to indicate otherwise. palpy always wanted to have the galaxy armed so that it can preserve his rule, and fight anything that stood in its way. I don't see palps wanting to form any alliance, if anything, they would be a rival that had to be studied and destroyed. The thing though that is intriguing is that parts of this whole Vong thing was left to chance. The old EU never answered everything about them, and now with new canon it'll never be answered either. Palp's didn't have an answer and the stories told didn't really expand much on that topic. They scouted, then later on they invaded.

This to me is like Darth Maul. Before the new canon, he was just a lappy that was mad, angry and wanting total destruction. With new canon, now we have a different Maul. One more calculating and as devious to an extent like Sidious/Palps. From The clone wars show to rebels, we have seen a completely different Maul.

 

I don't get it. So Legends Maul and Disney Maul are vastly different, even though Legends Maul includes TCW right up to the comic book-only arc.

How does this compare to Legends Vong being mysterious and Disney Vong currently not existing (beyond the implication that the TCW episode that doesn't exist still happened)?

 

I don't know honestly what he meant.

 

if you look at the Clone Wars continuity thread a lot of people are pretending TCW isn't Legends anymore


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Wow okay. then eu fans can pretend TCW isn't canon. Whatever

 

Er, it's not "pretending" - it's making an argument that given the discrepancies, it's better to have two separate Clone Wars continuities. It's not about expelling TCW from Legends because people don't like it.

 

Yeah, as someone who is entirely 100% behind the New Canon, the idea of separating The Clone Wars from Legends does make some amount of sense to me. Besides, it's never going to be an official issue so people can accept what they want, I feel. TCW in a lot of ways feels like it was the start of the New Canon, even if it technically wasn't.

 

Ask, and eventually ye shall receive.

The characterization of Sidious as "primordial evil embodied" is something I'll accept TO A POINT. I accept it in the sense that the character, like all the characters of significance in the saga, is intended to represent a state of being. Han represents cynicism, Chewie represents loyalty, and so on. So, yes, Sidious represents something of deep importance.

I also say that there's some validity to the devil comparison, in that Sidious is the closest thing this saga has to an Antichrist figure, mythologically speaking. If we want to explore that, then Endor represents his Armageddon, whereas his reemergence in the Dark Empire series can be compared to, say, the war of Gog and Magog at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, where he is released for a time to spread havoc before, like the Biblical antagonists, his ability to cause harm is permanently ended on Onderon. That may be a bit of Lucas' Methodist roots peeking through, and it certainly makes for a nice comparison - but of course there are limits to how much we should want to apply Judeo-Christian concepts to this saga.

What Sidious represents, at the absolute core of it all, is selfishness. Everything about him, even before he became a Sith, indicates his concern solely with the self, with first the protection, then the empowerment, and then the aggrandizement of the self. Does this mean he is a sociopath, or some similar word? The exact term for this in terms of how it manifests in a human being, as it does in Sheev Palpatine, is better left to those who have a copy of the DSM-V at hand; but he certainly displays all the traits of one: he is narcissistic, grandiose, sadistic; when Plagueis says that Sidious has all the instincts of a serial killer, that is a statement I can believe; save that his instincts are bent towards harm on a much larger scale, and backed by the power first of a very far-reaching organization and the personal powers of a warlock.

The name this man was given by his family was Sheev Palpatine; the name he was given by his master was Darth Sidious, and he who gave it described it to Palpatine as representing the truth of himself. But really, neither of those names do that; the name that truly represents him is "I"

Perhaps the most evil word in the universe is "I" because it can and often does block out anyone and anything OTHER than "I." It's the concept that enables people to be comfortable with murder, with rape, with child abuse, with torture; if "I" has decided that these things are what "I" wants, and if one has deemed that "I" and what "I" wants is more important than what other people will endure in the accomplishment of what "I" wants, than such things can turn from thought to act. "I" is the concept that allows one to hurt someone else and not hear them screaming.

Like the "I"-obsessed minds who walk our own streets, Sidious sees others as nothing but the means to satisfy the wants of "I." And like so many such minds, he's spent much, MUCH more time thinking about how to use you to get what "I" wants and get away with it than you have thinking about how to prevent that or protect yourself from it.

Lucas has consistently stressed that the basic leanings of both the Jedi and the Sith were to selflessness and selfishness, respectively; within the spectrum of states between those extremes, Sidious sits on the exact end of selfishness; Sidious is selfishness warped to its ultimate form of development. He is indeed, as the Dark Empire Sourcebook states, "a conscious, willing participant in evil for its own sake."

Which is precisely why, at the end of the day, I really have a problem with the Yuuzhan Vong. At a basic, philosophical level, it just doesn't work for me to have a villain that has a greater body count than the Emperor: between 300 and 400 trillion, far more than all the deaths resulting from all of Sidious' schemes combined. I certainly won't fault you for liking the series, that's your right: but to me, Sidious can't be upstaged as a villain that just barges into the galaxy and hasn't earned that status of Bigger than the Big Bad. It just doesn't FEEL right to me.

 

I like your reasoning regarding Sidious and we'll get back to you on the selfishness part-but I like the Vong. Did they have a higher body count than Sidious? Yes. However their not irredeemably evil. Cruel? You betcha! Fanatical? You can't say anything else! Evil(certain members undoubtedly). Sidious is one-being really as I said he is only human in the shallowest sense-the Vong are a whole race-a race cut off from the life spring of the universe, cut off from their roots, spiritually blind and hopelessly misguided- In a lot of ways I'd say say if we use a biblical analogy they are the human race-cut off from God, hopelessly lost, and seeking to fill the Void the second God left them-them going to Zonama is Paradise regained or Revelation 22-it's redemption. That's what makes the NJO such an inspiring tale.

 

This was actually covered in the interviews at the end of "The Unifying Force." The authors were asked if they were worried about trying to create a villain more evil than Palpatine. One of them responds that he doesn't think that's a problem, because arguably the Yuuzhan Vong are less evil than Palpatine, being that at least they're doing what they think is moral (however messed up their morality), whereas Palpatine was only looking out for number one.

 

Everyone should check out the Paradise Lost audiobook starring Ian McDiarmid as Satan. he uses the exact same voice that he uses for Palpatine, and it works so well.


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I had no idea I needed this in my life.


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I'd say this is pretty accurate, though we can't argue against that the opposite end isn't just as bad. We have Caedus and to a lesser extent Vader who joined the Sith BECAUSE of selflessness. Caedus was more selfless than Vader, but at the end of the day they genuinely saw themselves as trying to fix the Galaxy and bring order to it. Some of the biggest dictators we have in real life like Hitler were selfless and genuinely saw themselves as good guys, that a Europe without jews and with a big German Empire in charge would be a good thing.

 

I do think strongly though debates over who is selfish va selfless aside palpatine really was darkness incarnate-any other interpretation of his character seems either apologetic, softening, or just plain wrong. It's as if the primordial evil of the universe emerged in a human fetus in the chommel sector-and in palpatine' mind in the far far future-he would be reigning over every galaxy including the Vong Galaxy, that Galaxy where the ruzzum were from, the void and everything in between sucking on its life force as a dark and maleovelent God-achieving the final sith goal of immortality.

That is the only proper way to surmise the character in my personal opinion

 

There is actually no textual evidence that the Far Outsiders were indeed the Yuuzhan Vong. Post hoc that connection seems to be made or implied but if you actually look at the internal Vong policies depicted in the NJO (which basically is the most relevant source in regards to the Vong regardless what Zahn writes in OF and elsewhere) it becomes clear that it is very unlikely (and perhaps even impossible) that the Vong were actually doing much in the field of scouting and threatening the GFFA by the time they stumbled on Zonama Sekot around 29 BBY. After all, they found the living planet in the very location it was before it left in the wake of the events unfolding in TRP. And back then Zonama Sekot was in the Tingel Arm where the eventual invasion of the Vong would actually take place. The Unknown Regions and Chiss Space are in another corner of the galaxy and it is very unlikely that the Vong send scouts this deep into the galaxy this early. If that had been the case then Supreme Overlord Quoreal - who was still in charge back then - would have had much more detailed intel already when he sent out the mission who would bring him news about Zonama Sekot leading to his decree that this galaxy would not be conquered.

The idea that the Vong actually had the resources to mess with any powerful factions within the GFFA decades before the bulk of their forces were even in the vicinity of that galaxy makes little sense. The Vong aren't even ready when the Praetorite Vong make launch their first attack. And most of the world ships are far behind, struggling along. The idea that they were limping through space at a much slower pace than quicker smaller ships to such a degree that scouts were able to travel back and forth between the world ships and the GFFA in a manner that could enable them to actually reach and explore the Unknown Regions to such a degree that they would encounter the Chiss (and they then guess that those were extragalactic invaders with a force large enough to threaten everybody) is very far-fetched indeed. You have to keep in mind that the Vong did not actually threaten or invade Chiss Space or the Unknown Regions in any meaningful way as far as we know. If they did that they might be still out there because the NR/GA doesn't know what's going on out there. But surely they would have done so had they spent more time scouting the Unknown Regions than Republic-controlled space.

In addition, to this you have to keep in mind that until Onimi-Shimrra took over the Vong had not yet made plans for an invasion. And they only took over in 29 BBY. Even if Palpatine/Thrawn had been able to magically gathering really good intel on the size of the Vong fleet and the superiority of the biological technology (which is rather unlikely) then there is still the fact that at the time they would have done so (some time before/around the time of TRP) there was no way for them to be certain that those people actually meant to invade their galaxy - because at this time Supreme Overlord Quoreal was actually decreeing that they would leave the GFFA in peace.

Any real scouting missions the Vong did to actually prepare the invasion and gathering intel on the political situation in the GFFA would have taken place after Onimi-Shimrra had taken over. They were masterminding the invasion, nobody else.

In that sense I think we can easily enough assume or suggest that Thrawn might have meant different Far Outsiders than Sidious did when they had their brief talk in Outbound Flight. And the whole concept of C'baoth actually encountering the Vong when he was leaving the GFFA by way of the Unknown Regions is a very unlikely scenario in light of the geography of the GFFA. Unless we are assuming the Vong are coming from all directions not just the direction where they home galaxy is situated.

 

The book Darth Maul: Lockdown, had Maul fighting a Vong in a prison - back in 33 BBY. The "Far Outsiders are Vong" concept might be a little odd - but I do think it's pretty clear that this was the way the authors intended it to be - that Greg Bear had been given Rogue Planet to write, specifically as a prequel to NJO, that Zahn had written Survivor's Quest and Outbound Flight specifically to tie them to the Vong, and so forth.

Indeed, it seems quite possible to me that Zahn had been told that NJO and "galactic invasion" would be the next big story arc, back when he was writing Vision of the Future:


“He brought me out here,” he said quietly. “Showed me what it was we faced, and what we’d have to do to stop it. Showed me that even with all the resources of the Empire and New Republic combined, and with himself at the head, there were no guarantees of victory.”

“On the contrary, he’d already made contingency plans for defeat,” Parck added soberly. “Ten years ago he had sleeper groups of the best of his cloned warriors scattered around the Empire and New Republic, ready to form the nuclei of local resistance forces should Bastion and Coruscant fall. Men who loved their homes and their land and their worlds, and who would give their lives in their defense.”

“Yes,” Fel said. “Once I understood - once I really understood - I had no choice but to join him.”

The signature style of Far Outsiders, as described by Doriana, was biotech - and that's the Vong's schtick.

 

I would have loved to see that happen.

 

Since Coruscant fell but Bastion was okay, they're still sleeping.

 

Completely forgot the Vong in the prison. I actually read Lockdown. But then, this would have been around the time the Vong made their first scouting missions. It is imaginable that a member of the party Quoreal sent out got stranded and was thrown into a cell. The fact that this person ended up in the prison as a dangerous criminal very much suggests that she wasn't part of some deep cover scouting operation of the type Nom Anor did later on.

I'm not saying Palpatine and his circle couldn't have had some intel on the Vong at this point. I'm saying it is very unlikely that Palpatine had enough information to consider those creatures a great threat and that it is unlikely the Chiss ever directly encountered them at a time before Onimi-Shimrra made plans for the actual invasions. There are hints that the Vong might have been out there back in KotOR, too. But we have to take them as easter eggs/nods to the Vong, not as definite proof that they were out there sitting on their hands for 4,000 years.

The way I remember things is that Zahn wanted to do his own 'unknown/extragalactic threat' story before they changed publishing houses and the NJO was laid out. He wasn't part of that project and he wasn't even involved in the creation of Jagged Fel - who was a different son of Soontir Fel than the guy he used in SQ.

And I think TRP was sort of retconned into being connected to the Vong, wasn't it? Vergere only showed up later on during the NJO, didn't she?

Palpatine/Doriana had some intel on the biological technology of the Vong from the events unfolding in RP. Tarkin and Sienar would have briefed them. But that doesn't make it likely (or reasonable) that Palpatine would consider such freak species he essentially knew next to nothing about a major threat to his future rule. Nor had the generation-spanning Sith plan for revenge and acquisition of power Sidious was merely completing anything to do with preparing the galaxy for some extragalactic threat. That is just nonsense. And again, the geography of the GFFA makes it virtually impossible that any 'Far Outsiders' would attack the Empire/Republic coming from the Unknown Regions. There might be threats out there as well but those threats simply cannot be the Yuuzhan Vong.

One can retroactively speculate whether Palpatine's Empire would have been better equipped dealing with the Vong but I doubt it. Palpatine followed worked with the maxim 'divide and rule' in mind. Things were more centralized than back in the post-Ruusan Republic but there was no clear command structure or succession in place to ensure that only the Emperor was in control of everything. We see how quickly the Empire deteriorates as soon as the kingpin at the end is gone. The idea that such political entity would have been able to stand against the Vong isn't very likely.

In addition we have to keep in mind that the Empire lacked the 10,000 Jedi knights the Republic still had prior to the Clone Wars. Those Jedi would have been a very powerful force had the Old Republic been forced to deal with the Vong instead of the New Republic. I mean, the role the New Jedi Order played to defeat the Vong cannot be overstated and one wonders how much a difference the Old Order would have made had it still been intact.

 

Keep in mind that there was evidence in NJO that the Vong had started sending scout missions. Granted, it wasn't near Chiss space, at least not that particular scout group. But in the Dark Tide duology, Corran Horn and Ganner Rhysode discover the remains of a Vong on Bimmiel (I think that's the planet), and that's one of the reasons Shedao Shai (sp?) was angry at Horn.

 

We learn when exactly the Vong began to send out scouts. That was around 32 BBY when Supreme Overlord Quoreal was considering the GFFA as an invasion target. They chanced on Zonama Sekot in the Tingel arm (near the eventual invasion corridor of the Vong around Sernpidal/Belkadan) and Quoreal took that as a divine sign not to invade the GFFA. That led to his overthrow and death at the hands of Shimrra in 29 BBY. After that the plans for the invasion began.

The Chiss would have encountered invasion forces/scouts of the Vong before that because the idea that Vong would have invasion forces bent on actual conquest in the Unknown Regions by the time of Outbound Flight makes essentially no sense at all. Shimrra isn't even ready when the invasion actually begins. The Praetorite Vong rush (and botch) things while the main armada is still far out beyond the ridges of the GFFA. The idea that they would have had sizable armies in Chiss Space this shortly after deciding that they would target the GFFA at all makes little sense.

If that was true then one would expect Vong spies and agents to have played large to crucial roles in every conflict in the GFFA from 29 BBY to 25 ABY. But that clearly isn't the case.

 

But do we know for sure that the Chiss encounter the Vong before 32 BBY? Keep in mind that we know Thrawn said that Admiral Arlani (sp?) encountered the scout force, but never said when. For all we know, it took place before 27 BBY (or maybe earlier that year).

 

We don't know that for sure but it is difficult to imagine that Onimi-Shimrra would have sent forces into the Unknown Regions (which are in a completely different quarter of the GFFA than their invasion corridor) this early after they settled on the invasion thing. More importantly, the Vong forces as a whole would have been much farther away from the GFFA and thus such forces would have traveled much longer to reach those places. It is difficult to reconcile the idea of fast Vong ships traveling back and forth throughout thousands of light years of empty space while the world ships limp along. Granted, they might be travel at a slower pace but it is an important plot point in the NJO that the world ships, the big invasion force, and the Supreme Overlord himself only arrive late during the war in the GFFA. That wouldn't make sense if the Vong could send strong military forces who would challenge the Chiss in combat about fifty years before the beginning of their invasion. That kind of thing could have happened, say, ten or five years before the beginning but not so early.

The other thing is that the idea that the Vong figured out how to journey to the Unknown Regions this quickly when the Republic never mapped that territory for millennia is very hard to swallow. Chiss Space is nowhere near the borders of the GFFA, after all. And even if it was, the Vong scouts would only get there by crossing known parts of the GFFA. They would have been noticed by many other peoples in known space long before they encountered the Chiss. Unless we assume those scouts actually traveled around the GFFA to enter 'the galactic west' rather than 'the galactic north' which marks the beginning of their invasion corridor.

 

You forget in intergalactic space-there is no reference point outside of ships, and the invasion corridor was chosen until late on the way. Don't see any problem with scouts on the edges of Chiss space and the encounter with Zonama before the mass of Vong forces got within distance of the galactic barrier

 

Not sure I'm following. The invasion wasn't a thing until 29 BBY, and the idea that the invasion corridor didn't go along the stars the fleet was arriving already makes no sense in light of the shape some of the world ships are in. The Vong would want to get to the GFFA following the shortest route.