The extreme PT bashing/LOTR fanboys

Some months ago, I complained to Joshua Griffin and others about the PT bashing on TF.N. I was told that it was cyclical -- that there were a lot of bashers right now because a SW movie had just been released.

I don't see that it is cyclical at all. The vicious bashing has been going on for the entire time I've been on this board -- since Sept. 2001 -- and I know it's been going on longer than that. It has not let up much during that time. I have seen posts by bashers which claim that SW is dead. Yet they still keep posting, spreading their venom.

Right now the bashing is at a fever pitch because the second movie in the LOTR movie series has just been released. There are many completely pointless LOTR vs. SW threads on the boards, and people attacking the PT because it wasn't like LOTR: "The TPM DVD doesn't have all those cut scenes that add so much to FOTR!" Uh...maybe because FOTR is based on a book series in which there are gobs of scenes that necessarily had to be cut so the movie would be of watchable length?

I am sick and tired of all this use of LOTR as a bludgeon against SW. I cannot help but wonder why posters on TF.N are expected to be so tolerant of LOTR fanboys going on and on about LOTR's supposed superiority, on a SW message board. There is a message board out there for LOTR fans. It is called TheOneRing.net. And I know for a fact that the vice versa -- SW fans coming in and proclaiming that SW is better than LOTR -- would not be tolerated on that board.

Discussion of LOTR is one thing. I see many nice discussions in the various Fan Force boards. But using LOTR as a bludgeon against SW is another. I know I am not the only one who is tired of practically every thread on the movie forums devolving into a LOTR vs. SW (with LOTR invariably taking precedence) war. This a SW site, not a LOTR site. Why can't people discuss the prequels in peace without someone piping up about how superior LOTR was?

Many people have been driven away from TF.N because they are so fed up with the bashing, and there's a vicious circle going with Darth Media (a term that a poster invented on another board I post at to refer to the media and its bias against SW): TF.N drives away people who like the prequels, Darth Media looks to TF.N to gauge SW fandom, Darth Media reports that most SW fans hate the prequels and think LOTR is superior, yet more bashers flock to TF.N to slam the prequels and worship LOTR while yet more fans are driven away because Darth Media says the bashers are in the majority.

EDIT: See my last post in the thread for the reasoning behind the lock. - Quix

 

People are allowed to have their own opinions. Not every thread in the AOTC forum turns into a LOTR/SW war. It's normal to expect people to mention LOTR right now, as a new film just came out, and some people can't help but compare the two series.

"TF.N drives away people who like the prequels"

I like the prequels, and I'm still here. *shrug*

 

Discussion is good. Differences are good. When it turns heated, PM a mod to help cool down tempers. If you don't want to read them, then don't open those threads. Sometimes I just scan them for anything interesting to comment on, and other times I just ignore those threads and move along to other threads. Don't beat yourself up, and don't let others get on your nerves regarding their opinions on SW and LOTR. Some people want to create discord, others want to debate their merits/shortcomings, compare, and discuss.

 

You think that's bad? You should have seen the flame wars between Completists and Purists back in the day. Those were vicious!

(And I should know, because I started one that eventually led to the creation of the EUDF )

 

I like the prequels, and I'm still here. *shrug*

I'm still here, too, but I stay out of the movie discussion boards 90% of the time, and do my movie discussion on smaller boards where people agree on the fundamental point that the movies are, well, worth discussing.

Shelley's point about the mainstream press is very important. The mainstream media looks for a SW source, sees TFN, and says, "Ah, here's where we can see what fans think without putting in too much online time." So they check in and, on the first page of TPM, "The worst scenes in TPM," "wookiee instead of gungan," "Did Lucas secretly know that the PT wouldnt be as popular as the OT? (Particularly TPM)," "Did TPM need some more collaboration?", "LOTR, The Matrix, and the Star Wars PT: Which trilogy will stand the test of time?" and "Is it really Lucas' fault?". They go to AotC and see "Who else found Anakin really annoying?" and "Was Anyone else disappointed by Yoda?" And in Misc, they see "AOTC and TTT," "MORE MATRIX VS. STAR WARS," "AOTC ? second worst movie of the year according the Washington Post," "Who Would Make A Decent "Padme"???," and "I have issues with Rick McCallum".

So the media comes in and says, "Hey, look! Proof that Star Wars fans hate Star Wars!" They salivate for stuff like that.

 

The Episode III forum isn't immune to it either. Hence threads like, "Can Episode III redeem the PT?" which once again drags in LOTR, and which posts such as this dominate the thread:

Wanna at least say why? Wanna at least say why you think one of the mostly highly acclaimed movie series of recent times (LOTR), a marvel in film making that makes technology acceptable and does nothing but resort to pure storytelling, is crap compared to what is undisputedly the tragic laughing stock of the film world?

 

i agree with Shelley and JediGaladriel.

it is getting out of hand. this is a star wars message board. yes, discussion of other movies is allowed, but there is no need for literally dozens of threads about LOTR. it is what you would call "redundant" if another popular movie series had that many threads.

i also think that bashing the PT has become the hip thing to do in many cases. and not everyone uses the organ located in their head.

 

Let them continue to bash all they want to. I may not agree with them, but we'd be no better if we start stifling their ability to post their thoughts based on which films they did or didn't like.

As for LOTR, it does get a bit old, but I imagine a lot of it is because the films are being released now and a lot of SW fans are also LOTR fans. I happen to be a Star Trek fan myself and a lot of people had similar complaints about SW on the ST boards I go to. In the end, it just died down and is only brought up by the lunatic fringe who want to go starting something with someone.

 

i also think that bashing the PT has become the hip thing to do in many cases.

Only "many cases"?

I will say that, as a SW fan, I have no opinion of LotR. I basically dislike the Jackson movies as a Tolkien fan (and if anyone is treated worse by these guys than SW fans, it's book fans; they sneer at us and try to sound wise about how the difference in the media requires the presence of Arwen on a horse, and indeed hint that Jackson has improved on Tolkien, who should have known better...) It didn't even occur to me when the rumors of the movies were first starting to come out that one would have anything to do with the other.

The critics are basically doing the same thing these guys are doing--jumping on the latest bandwagon to bash SW. Though I do have to grin... the amount of effort people put into it really does indicate that SW is still the standard that people measure by.

 

Part of this is that you aren't a LOTR film fan, Shelley. Most of the time when you read posts in this "conflict" you respond with at least one mention of "Peter 'Cue heavenly choir of angels' Jackson", which only serves to perpetuate the problem.

Most of the posters who discuss LOTR here are both fans of SW and fans of LOTR. The mods recognize first, that we have a diverse fanbase; second, comparisons between the films *will* occur; and third, that some fans will like one more than the other. It's exceptionally unrealistic to expect us to edit discussions or prevent comparisons of the two trilogies.

I would also like to see some proof of this "Darth Media" conspiracy. I've been here quite a while too, I don't live under a rock, and yet I have yet to hear of any conspiracy to keep SW down. If anything, I see Darth Media publicizing the films, the fanbase, and sensationalizing the saga.

Regardless, we are principally a SW board, which is why the other film forum moderators and I were so busy locking myriad redundant AOTC/TTT threads for the past few weeks. To what extent do you want us to be Thought Police and prevent any discussion of LOTR?

And J-G, there is nothing wrong with the topics you mentioned. Even a cursory glance at the threads you mentioned demonstrate a passionate and diverse fanbase - if anything, it shows that the SW fanbase isn't simply a collection of sycophants.

 

Edit: Q-S has taken appropriate action in the situation I described.

 

I have to agree with Shelley here. It's one thing to have a right to your own opinion. It's another thing to bring up a totally different movie to try to defend your position.

I happen to adore Lord of the Rings, including the movies, but this is getting out of hand. Pointing to Jackson's Fellowship and saying, "Why couldn't Lucas have been cool like that for TPM?" isn't good discussion technique. (For one thing, the special effects technology has improved so drastically between the two movies that that's not even a valid argument, but I digress.)

Even comparisons between acting quality and script quality fall flat - at one point I saw someone say that FotR was a better movie because Orlando Bloom made you believe that he was an elf and stabbing an orc in the face with an arrow, pulling it out, and firing it at another orc, with little reference to Star Wars. Umm, excuse me, but how does that prove anything? If you want to figure out what it was about AotC that you didn't like, wouldn't it be best to compare Hayden's performance in AotC to other films of his, or other scripts written by Lucas, or other scores by Williams? Saying that it's not as kewl as LotR is not the way to win friends and influence people, and it's not a valid way to prove your point in a discussion. (Of course, I think part of the problem in the movie boards is that no one knows how to discuss and debate things rationally, but that's an issue for a different thread...)

YodaJeff, I understand your point and I agree with you, but it seems like every time someone complains about the excessive amount of bashing that goes on in a forum that's supposed to be a gathering place for fans, the only response we get from the administration is "everyone is entitled to his own opinion." Well, yes, everyone is, but I don't see how the atmosphere on the boards allows people to actually like the prequel movies. What I see is protection of bashers and little support for those who want to discuss the movies like rational adults. This may have changed since the last time I was in the movie discussion boards, but that's precisely why I stopped visiting them in the first place.

Mel

 

"What I see is protection of bashers and little support for those who want to discuss the movies like rational adults."

That comment is ironic, as "bashers" often complain that they are treated worse than "gushers".

I try to be fair in the AOTC forum. Whether or not someone like AOTC or LOTR isn't important to me. What is important to me is that they are respectful to other members, give reasoning behind their ideas, are open minded, and that they follow the TOS while posting.

 

I try to be fair in the AOTC forum. Whether or not someone like AOTC or LOTR isn't important to me. What is important to me is that they are respectful to other members, give reasoning behind their ideas, are open minded, and that they follow the TOS while posting.

Just as a question -- if these are the "Jedi Council Forums" for Star Wars discussion, then why, in not-clearly marked LOTR-to-SW comparison threads, are comparisons allowed -- even if respectful and fulfilling the TOS?

In the EU Lit forum we have people on both sides of the NJO camp. Those like me who despise what it is doing to Star Wars and those who think it's the best thing since sliced bread.

However, those of us who complain about the NJO do so with respect to the source material of STAR WARS, not by saying other novel series are better. I've said that the NJO is turning Star Wars INTO other fantasy novel series or used marketing decisions in other novel franchises to examine possible marketing decisions of the Star Wars franchise -- but never "this is the worst -- this is so much better."

The closest I've come is saying that I've been enjoying a Trek novel series better than the NJO but NOT saying "Trek kicks Star Wars' butt!"

Again -- why can't all LOTR literature discussion take place in Amphitheater (or with small portions in EU Lit as we have going now) and there be one OFFICIAL "LOTR Compared to Star Wars Movies" thread in the movie forums?

 

That comment is ironic, as "bashers" often complain that they are treated worse than "gushers".

I'm sure they think that, but I see little evidence of it.

 

What I see is protection of bashers and little support for those who want to discuss the movies like rational adults.

I find this especially funny because of the not-so-subtle flame: either you're a rational adult or a basher. This is extraordinarily funny because instead of "protection" of the "bashers," all YodaJeff and I have been attempting to do is make sure that *everyone* is treated with respect, regardless of his/her experience of the films. Historically, the only complaints I've seen about "protecting bashers" have come from people who's flaming of them had gone unnoticed for far too long.

Shelley- the person who posted that comment has been banned, and rightly so. What doesn't help is adding fuel to the fire.

Re: film comparison. We've gone back and forth on this, and I don't think we'll find a solution palatable to everyone. If we were discussing James Bond vs. T2T, then yes, the Amphitheatre would be a better forum. However, these threads are explicitly "Other saga" & "SW PT film", which makes them germane to the forums in which they occur. I think permitting myriad threads on LOTR/PT comparison is excessive and beyond the forums' scope, but I don't think that one thread out of 500+ is unreasonable.

EDITS: ima speling whyzz

 

Im gettig sick of all the LOTR stuff too. And although I never bothered to read the books, I liked the movies so far. But I sick of "LOTR vs SW" or "NJO is based on LOTR" threads.



And I ask you this. If I kept doing all this but with John Woo films, or Deadpool comics, or the future Daredevil movies, would it be the same? I doubt it. Because LOTR is currently the fanboy flavour of the month (Im not saying everyone who likes it is a fanboy, but there are a lot of em these days), a thread involving LOTR can quickly degenerate into flamefest, and a SW thread can quickly become a LOTR gushfest.


I cant think of how this can be solved, but I do feel it is something that does need some sort of sorting.

 

Part of this is that you aren't a LOTR film fan, Shelley. Most of the time when you read posts in this "conflict" you respond with at least one mention of "Peter 'Cue heavenly choir of angels' Jackson", which only serves to perpetuate the problem.

I suppose you're right. But IMO the problem has long ago gotten out of check.

Most of the posters who discuss LOTR here are both fans of SW and fans of LOTR. The mods recognize first, that we have a diverse fanbase; second, comparisons between the films *will* occur; and third, that some fans will like one more than the other. It's exceptionally unrealistic to expect us to edit discussions or prevent comparisons of the two trilogies.

Why not? The negativity seems to be contained quite nicely in the EU forums. And surely there need not be so many threads which either start out as LOTR vs. SW or turn into LOTR vs. SW. What's so hard about having a single thread, or maybe a couple of threads, on one forum, that people are directed to if they start in on the comparisons -- which do little but cause trouble anyway?

I know I am not the only one who is sick to death of the PT bashing, which often goes hand in hand with the LOTR vs. SW stuff. I am not saying dissent should be stifled. I am asking that it be contained, so that people don't have to wade through 15 bashing threads and 100 bashing posts before they can find some positive stuff.

I would also like to see some proof of this "Darth Media" conspiracy.

I didn't say it was a conspiracy. I've never said it was a conspiracy. I've said it was a bias. And I see plenty of evidence for it; Darth Media going out of its way to dis the PT, making generalizations about how the PT was "poorly received," ignoring any and all positive reaction to it, constantly stirring up the so-called "rivalry" between SW and LOTR, SW and Matrix, and so on.

I've been here quite a while too, I don't live under a rock, and yet I have yet to hear of any conspiracy to keep SW down. If anything, I see Darth Media publicizing the films, the fanbase, and sensationalizing the saga.

Yeah, it publicizes the films for its own benefit and then turns around and slams them. *cough*Entertainment Weekly*cough*

Regardless, we are principally a SW board, which is why the other film forum moderators and I were so busy locking myriad redundant AOTC/TTT threads for the past few weeks. To what extent do you want us to be Thought Police and prevent any discussion of LOTR?

Discussion is one thing. Using LOTR as a bludgeon against SW is another.

And J-G, there is nothing wrong with the topics you mentioned.

To paraphrase what you said to me: part of this is that you aren't a TPM fan, Q-S.

Although I give you kudos for doing a very good job moderating the threads in the forum for TPM, despite your own personal issues with the movie.

Even a cursory glance at the threads you mentioned demonstrate a passionate and diverse fanbase - if anything, it shows that the SW fanbase isn't simply a collection of sycophants.

'Twould be nice if the negative threads were consolidated (there's already a Bashers Sanctuary, after all) so that the diversity could be maintained without the negative overpowering the positive. Because if Darth Media looks at all this negativity, it only perpetuates the bias and only encourages more negativity.

Shelley- the person who posted that comment has been banned, and rightly so. What doesn't help is adding fuel to the fire.

Yes, I saw that you'd done that, thanks, Q-S. I altered my post.

 

I'm in the mushy middle re: the PT, so there are things I like and things I dislike. There are many like me.

I'm a fan of both SW and LOTR; I see good and bad in both. There are many like me.

Discussion of these two film sagas actually is largely contained. There is the trilogy comparison thread in the TPM forum, which, depending on how things work out in the Misc. forum, may be moving. There is the Gollum/Jar Jar thread, which is germane to the forum since they are both entirely CG characters. Praise and criticism of both Trilogies are present in both. Much is the same in the AOTC forum.

As to individual threads, for the most part, discussion is appropriate and on-topic. If a post happens to refer to another film for comparison, that isn't derailing it. If a post is simply "TPM/AOTC sux. LOTR rocks!" then yes, it is derailing the thread, but most of what I've seen isn't so facile.

Re: Darth Media - we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't believe that there is a media bias, as I don't consider Entertainment Weekly to be the be all/end all of the media giant. I see a lot of good and bad mentions of SW, which leads me to believe that GL will be praised and blamed for the choices he makes, which is eminently reasonable.

 

*stops lurking in Communications*

Hey. I'm an LotR fan, so I thought I should speak up.

Now, really, I hadn't realized that all the LotR stuff on these boards is so much of a problem. I don't go into the OT or AotC boards, so maybe I don't understand what is going on. If LotR posts are derailing threads in that area, warn the poster, and if they continue, spank them for about 24 hours or so.

Many people seem to be complaining about how LotR threads are taking over the JC, and the bashing is horrible, and how they want it to end. A policy should be set forth, LotR countdown/community threads limited to the JCC, and LotR discussion threads limited to the Amphitheature. Awhile ago I suggested that we simply take all the "major" LotR threads, and have mods edit links to the other big LotR threads into them, which would keep them contained. If a new redundant LotR thread comes up, someone can quickly give the thread's author a link to where the discussion may take place, and it can be locked.

Really, a policy needs to be set up for this, hopefully something that won't anger either side, but this needs to end.

On a slightly different note, I don't frequent threads where PT bashing occurs, but I have seen it the other way around. A friend of mine bashes TTT, saying the PT is the best, blah blah blah. If we disagree, he uses this whole thing about LotR fanboys bashing the PT as a shield. I'd like for a policy to be set up so that this issue can be set to rest.


*returns to lurking*


edit: Just a thought, but why is someone who apparently hates Mara Jade complaining about people who dislike certain aspects of a Star Wars movie?

 

The reason there's so many threads about LotR is quite simple: most newbies don't know what the word "redundant" means. The PSA has always been that way, with multiple threads about the same thing all over the place. It's one of the worst places you can go to. This isn't the fault of the mods. It's simply because they're the most active boards with the most newbies coming in every day and they simply can't keep up with it. It's been getting worse for years. That's one of the reasons I stick mostly to the JC.

 

Well personally I would like to see a lot less LOTR discussion here because I am getting pretty fed up with it but I accept that there are many fans of both sagas who post here and these discussions are inevitable.

As for bashers being a problem, I would suggest that greater problems are caused by gushers who refuse to see any faults in SW and who cannot except that a genuine fan has every right to criticise a film.

 

I'm sorry, Q-S - I didn't mean that in the way you interpreted it. I lurked in the movie forums for some time, and I finally stopped because I never wanted to get involved with discussions. I rarely saw any good discussions that didn't degenerate into bashing or gushing festivals, and I'm not a fan of either. Goodness knows I'm not the biggest fan of the prequels, but I don't like the way the movie forums operate now. I suppose that's mostly my personal preference - I like the smaller forums anyway for discussion.

I agree that LotR discussion should be in the Amphitheatre - and LotR/SW comparisons should probably be in Miscellaneous. I know I've seen a Rings site with a SW board in the message boards (can't remember which off the top of my head), but I think that idea came up here a while ago and was pretty much universally rejected.

Mel

 

I wanna put in an opinion after lurking around and reading through the thread.

It's bound to happen that there are going to be comparsions between SW and LOTR, since many of the mainstream entertainment magazines have been hyping to the nth degree how great LOTR is and how it's going to bury SW or something to that effect. There are an abundance of SW & LoTR fans here on these boards, and I'm one of them. However, the problem is that people are thinking that these movies are the greatest thing since sliced bread and the media (Darth Media so says Q-S ) is spreading the myth that LOTR is the best thing and SW is old and decaying. This gives bashers of the SW fuel to add to the fire.

I mean honestly, I've seen TTT three times now and the romance there was no greater than that of AOTC. Yet I'm sure people have been panning the differences. The action scenes were comparable at times and there are several changes in the movie that as a fan of the books I didn't like. However, I appreciated the hard work that Peter Jackson put into the movies. And that's one of the problems that many SW fans seem to forget, this is not easy, this is hard work what Jackson and Lucas are doing.

Honestly, I think the bashers are just so desperate at time to make their points in showing the flaws that they will use LOTR to add fuel in the discussion. I think by doing this, it hurts discussion and leads to more problems than it solves.

These are just my two cents. I'll gladly discuss though.

 

I'm glad the discussion on this often-heated topic has stayed as mature as it has thus far.

I've thought a lot about this issue, being someone who paruses the movie boards the most. Do I like LOTR? No. Do I think all the silly comparisons are relevant? No. Are there people on both sides of the B/G fence who cross the line sometimes? Yes.

These are all issues which can make a place like this a real drag to frequent sometimes. But I think the AOTC mods - YJ in particular - have done an outstanding job of keeping the redundant threads to a minimum and maintaining civility in the discussions.

The best solution I've found for not getting worked up is to just ignore a lot of those inflammatory posts. I've loved SW since I was a kid, and do today as much as I did when I was 10 years old. I won't allow anyone's opinion to change mine, nor do I expect to "convert" fans of another series. If we respect where everyone's heart lies, this can still be a great place to discuss the films that have brought us together in the first place.