The extreme PT bashing/LOTR fanboys

I agree with dp4m.

When I stepped out of TTT, I loved it, but was a little disgruntled about how some scenes and characters were treated. The more I've thought about it, the less I like the movie. My initial gut reaction was along the lines of "OMG!!1! Th1s m0v13 15 t3h b0mb!!!!!11!!!", but the way that Faramir, Treebeard, the entire second half of the Frodo/Sam/Gollum plotline, and other changes were made, my reaction at this point is much more restrained.

When I stepped out of the theatre, I would have given it a 9 or 9.5 out of ten. At this point, I?d probably give it a 6, a 7 at most.

 

My favorite character was Gandolf.

 

Gandolf the third archer from the right, the one that got decapitated. His only line was ?Aaaaaarrrrrgggghhhhh!? or maybe ?Aaaaaaoooooaaaaaggggggghhhh!? It was hard to tell.

Personally, I liked Gandalf.

 

Let me ask this question: Do you think there is such a thing as "extreme PT gushing"?

Even if there is, liking something a lot doesn't insult people, at least not in a forum designed for it. You don't have to be tactful about things you enjoy, as long as you don't outright insult people who don't.

Say, you go to the opera, and you're standing out on the street afterward. One person is expounding on the similarities between Wagner's cycle and Tolkien's Ring; another is vigorously arguing against it, including Tolkien's acerbic comment that the only thing they have in common is a Ring. A third interrupts to say "That was a dumb story, and here's why it was a waste of everyone's time and money."

Down the block, someone is talking about what a genius Wagner was, and how the opera has really lifted her spirit. A passer-by glares at her and says, "Wagner was an anti-semite! No one should perform his operas!"

Meanwhile, back on the steps, a bunch of first timers are still enthralled. They're not exactly making brilliant arguments or talking about life in general, they're just saying things like, "Gosh that was pretty!" or "That lady had the best voice in the world!" or "That was the best show ever!" A little annoying for someone who didn't like it, and no one's idea of highly evolved debate, but still, a pleasant enough way to pass the time after an enjoyable experience. A member of the group hated it and hopes not to go to the next one. He could say, "Well, I didn't particularly care for it." But instead, he says, "This whole thing was irritating beyond belief. The story was bad, the music was ugly, I've heard better singers in the subway, and if you want to see a real show, you should catch a Broadway musical."

In each case, the negative opinion is genuinely held and the person in question is presumably knowledgeable about music. But what they've done is taken people who are happy enjoying something and deliberately tried to argue that they should be unhappy instead. That's inherently unkind.

Each opinion can be expressed in polite conversation without it coming out that way, but the person holding it is the one responsible for being gentle.

The first might say, "You know, there were some parts of the story that really didn't seem like they fit. I had the same problem with Tolkien. Do you know why...?" and then engage the story-arguers in a discussion about those aspects of the story without making it a fight.

The second might say, "I've been bothered by things I've read about Wagner's anti-semitism, and I've heard that it actually shows in the Ring cycle. Did you think it was present?"

The third might say, "Sorry, I just really didn't care for it. Hey, next time we get together, I know a cool Broadway show we could hit... and there's a great singer in the subway stop, too, like a bonus. I bet you'll like it."

The neat thing about that trick is that it then puts the etiquette shoe on the other foot, because responding abusively to any of the latter versions is now rudeness.

 

Episode III is two years away and already the bashers are spreading their hatred and nastiness and "LOTR is so much better!" crap into the Episode III forums. Here's a typical post:

Hey DarKnight and Blobo,

You guys are exactly right. Lucas has totally his vision and sold out for Jar Jar lunch boxes.

And LOTR is far superior than the PT so far. Even though Jackson deviated a little from TTT story, it was well directed and the acting fantastic.

I said this before, GL must have been crapping his pants once he saw FOTR and TTT.

http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=10092821&page=3

If this person is in such ecstasies over LOTR, why is he wasting his time at a SW message board when TheOneRing.net is just around the cyber-corner?

His post projects his own "film rivalry" issues onto Lucas, plus it accuses Lucas of "selling out" without saying how, exactly, he's "sold out" (during the OT, there were C3PO lunch boxes and Yoda lunchboxes, as well as gobs of other SW-themed merchandise).

 

This is really getting tired and old. What difference does it make if people bash SW or claim LOTR is better? Who cares? I think less attention to what others like or dislike and more attention on what you like is the key to enjoying yourself at the JC. I also think thicker skin is in order.

BTW...I've looked around the JC and I've seen several "anti-SW" threads. I ignore them and their posts. The only way I'll acknowledge one of their posts is if they attack me directly. Other than that, they're just as free as I am to post their opinions.

 

Some more posts in the same thread:

true but i dont think many people other then complete star wars freaks would disagree that the first two lord of the rings films are far better then the first two star wars prequels

Hey Shelley,

Here's a fact, not an opinion. The acting, chemistry and dialogue between the characters of the LOTR saga has been far superior than in Ep's 1 & 2.

I've been banned for being less rude, contentious, and nasty than these two posters.

 

Those people are entitled to their opinion. Should they go elsewhere? Probably, but you can't force people to leave just because they disagree with other posters. If you're having that much trouble, PM a mod about it. Bringing it here every time someone says something to you is both childish and annoying. Handle it in private or ignore it.

 

The second comment, being directed at Shelley, is a borderline flame, imho, though I'd want a forum mod to look at it. And stating an unfounded (and imho wrong) opinion as "this is a fact" is... well, not against the rules, but certainly arrogant beyond belief.

Certainly the comment that only freaks would disagree with his assessment is a flame, not even close to the border.

 

I think it's more baiting than flaming and it should be treated as such. It's still something that can be handled in private.

 

One of the reasons I think, is that there is no good forum for lord of the rings on any of the sites. Theonering.net has one but is all disorganized and impossable to understand so they all come here. Where else can they go?

 

Is there any particular reason why this thread needs to stay open? We've already *reestablished*:

• Posters should be polite.


• There are not many LOTR threads.


• Moderators will continue to do their jobs and prevent redundant topics.


• People will disagree on the films, and so long as it's respectful, there is no reason for them to go elsewhere.


• There are different definitions of what constitutes "bashing."


• Shelley dislikes "bashers," and really dislikes "bashers" who champion LOTR over the PT movies.

I'm inclined to lock this, as I don't see it resolving any particular issue (which is my understanding of the purpose of the Comms forum). Does anyone else believe that this topic needs to stay open?

 

I have an opinion:

I don't think bashers ever make a point, without stating a reason for why they feel that way. They're usually logical people. At least as far as I've seen.

Secondly, when most people say they wish the PT was more like LOTR. I presume they mean in terms of grandeur. Not in a literal sense of Anakin becoming an Elf, or Obi-wan becoming a hobbit.

So, they mostly make film-to-film comparison's. And that's not surprising as it's now the latest movie released. When the time for Matrix comes, they'll do the same thing for that. And after all this is a Star Wars board. They wouldn't come here to compare Matrix vs. LOTR.

Thirdly, I am a Star Wars fan too, as are many others, Shelley or nobody else has any right to tell us where to go repeatedly. Or, segregate and contain people. Specially in potentially interesting topics of discussion.

I think it's a flamable offense to keep telling people where to go. I personally have never been to onering.net, as I'm not an LOTR fan.

Lastly, There are varied topics of discussion. Why would people want to stifle the vibrancy and shut people up? How would all these boards look without these dynamic threads? It would be a pretty boring place.

 

If this is going to be locked, I'd like to mention this:

If this person is in such ecstasies over LOTR, why is he wasting his time at a SW message board when TheOneRing.net is just around the cyber-corner?


While they may have interests in another movie series, that doesn't mean they don't like SW. That's why they origonally came here!

And this place is a community. I've made alot of friends here in the time I've been here, and just because I'm somewhat interested in another topic, I might like to discuss my other interests here with those people.

 

Thirdly, I am a Star Wars fan too, as are many others, Shelley or nobody else has any right to tell us where to go. Or, segregate and contain people. Specially in potentially interesting topics of discussion.

I am not telling people where to go. I am pointing out that there is a message board for LOTR fans: it is called TheOneRing.net. If you think LOTR is so much grander, better, etc., why not go there?

My posts are much more civil than the posts I listed above, where the posters insulted those who like the PT better than LOTR and declared their opinions to be fact.

 

So where are people to go who want to discuss distinct topics of LOTR and SW, specially since it's the hot topic right now?

Thoughts will pop up. We can't control those thoughts.

Not everybody believes LOTR is grander or better. Sometimes they make valid comparisons. Believe me, their's a lot to discuss, being middle movies. Environments, Yoda and Gandalf, Obi-wan and Aragorn etc.

I agree though, nobody should insult those who like the PT.

Psychological insult should be a bannable offense.

 

While they may have interests in another movie series, that doesn't mean they don't like SW. That's why they origonally came here!

Yeah, and all they do is bash it and say how much better LOTR is. I don't see the point.

And this place is a community. I've made alot of friends here in the time I've been here, and just because I'm somewhat interested in another topic, I might like to discuss my other interests here with those people.

Discuss being the operant word.

What I am saying is not that LOTR fans shouldn't post here. I am saying that, IMO, to use LOTR as a bludgeon against SW takes away from the civility of the message board. There is no need for multiple threads on it, or for unrelated threads to degenerate into a LOTR vs. SW discussion.

Also, it takes away from the civility of the message boards to have practically every thread in the PT forums degenerate into bashers vs. gushers. Plus all the negatively-titled threads take away from the civility even more.

 

As I said, Psychological insult should be a bannable offense.

But, that doesn't take away their right to start topics of discussion. Unless it's redundant.

 

Psychological insult should be a bannable offense.

It has been in some cases, and I agree wholeheartedly with the policy of not allowing insults of persons.

Has everyone had a say here? Is there a general consensus on consolidating LotR/SW threads into one "official" thread, and locking others as redundant?

 

consolidating LotR/SW threads into one "official" thread, and locking others as redundant?

No, I think levity for comparison's should be allowed where valid.

 

What I am saying is not that LOTR fans shouldn't post here. I am saying that, IMO, to use LOTR as a bludgeon against SW takes away from the civility of the message board. There is no need for multiple threads on it, or for unrelated threads to degenerate into a LOTR vs. SW discussion.


Oh, sorry. Seemed like this thread was something of a rant against LotR fans/fanboys I agree that a policy should be set up with this. However, really, how big of a problem is this? I guess I haven't noticed, though that's just due to the forums I mainly visit...(Games, JCC, Lit...)

Has everyone had a say here? Is there a general consensus on consolidating LotR/SW threads into one "official" thread, and locking others as redundant?

^^^Seems like the best way to end this. Comparisons's should be allowed, but not to excess, as these are SW message boards.


edit: Clarification and markup.

 

Is there a general consensus on consolidating LotR/SW threads into one "official" thread, and locking others as redundant?

My preference would be that the AOTC forum be used to discuss AOTC (and AOTC's relation to the other SW movies). LOTR discussions would be directed elsewhere (to something similar to the Amphitheatre).

The analogy I draw is to a search engine. If a search engine spits back too many non-AOTC results for a search on AOTC, then I find another search engine.

Having said that, I want to reiterate that I think the mods generally do a good job. It's not the fault of the mods. It's the fault of the posters. Negative threads and posts I can handle, but a general culture of negativity and cynicism is tiresome.

 

Comparisons's should be allowed, but not to excess

I agree.

And no insults if someone doesn't agree with your opinion. This could take the boards a long way.

 

Is there a general consensus on consolidating LotR/SW threads into one "official" thread, and locking others as redundant?

No. "Jar Jar vs. Gollum" (in terms of fully rendered characters) is a separate topic than "Boromir vs. Anakin as tragic heroes." Both are separate topics than "Palpatine vs. Sauron as paradigms of evil." All are germane and would provide interesting discussions.

"Gollum rulez!", "Jar Jar vs. Gollum", "Lucas wishes he could have made Gollum", etc. are redundant and would be locked. I have no plans to create a single comparison thread in either of the forums for which I'm responsible; I will lock redundant threads and make sure new topics are germane, but I will not stifle original and authentic discussion.

 

All are germane and would provide interesting discussions.

...would provide interesting discussions in the Amphitheatre. Directing the discussion to a location deemed appropriate is not "stifling" discussion. It is done here all the time, and rightfully so.

There is a reason why different forums exist here. It is to make it easier for a consumer to focus on their topic of interest.

These rules would also be easier to enforce and to understand. The forums at televisionwithoutpity.com are strictly regulated, which makes them very useful for consumers interested in the topic at hand. Topics are also very easy to locate. Discussion is not "stifled".

Thanks for listening.