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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The extreme PT bashing/LOTR fanboys

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Shelley, Jan 5, 2003.

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  1. Master Salty

    Master Salty Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 1999
    The BYS is still alive and kicking. You should visit the thread sometime.


    As far as policies changing...it's always good to express them to the forum mods as well as Comms. It's not out of the question for policies to change, but it takes time. I don't see anything unreasonable in your thoughts on the AOTC forum.
     
  2. Amidala_Skywalker

    Amidala_Skywalker Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 2001
    ...ignore the trolls and they'll go away.

    It doesn't work this way. LOTR fanboys and bashers post everywhere, throughout all of the threads. A few of them are determined to keep it up for months on end. There is too much to ignore.


    Consider this: if you were ignored by every user at JC for months on end, wouldn?t you go away? Unfortunately as you implied, since there is ?too much to ignore?, users respond and toss fuel into the fire. People who make comments like ?LOTR rules! SW is old and sucks!? thrive off the reaction they receive from SW-lovers, and when they don?t receive a reaction, they?re disappointed. These people want attention, want a reaction, and you?re playing into their hands when you give them one.

    Focusing the forums more tightly would help this.

    I?m sure the mods would love to hear any suggestions you have, Zidious. I think redirecting certain threads to appropriate forums would be a good idea.

    It is a copout for a teacher/principal to tell a fifth-grader who's being mercilessly picked on (to the point where it affects his health and grades) to "just ignore" the kids who are being cruel, and it's a copout to tell people who are sick and tired of the viciousness and negativity of posters trashing movies they like to "just ignore it." The trolls will NOT go away. Even if they leave, they only come back under new socks to start a whole new round of trouble.

    Shelley, can you tell us what actions the parents of the said child would take to stop the bullying? Would the bully be expelled? Applying it to our situation, should we expel/ban all the users that give their opinion of SW in comparison to LOTR?

    With a more focused forum, the positive/negative balance may return to normal.

    What?s normal? More positive SW talk, less LOTR?

    I don?t mind threads where users are comparing LOTR and SW civilly. Discussions are great; bashing isn?t. Everyone has a different opinion on what constitutes as bashing. There are so many people here possessing different opinions they would like to voice - with most supporting more than one fandom - that they are bound to clash some point along the line. We can?t have everybody thinking the same thing. I agree that if a person is bashing SW because they?re on a crusade to prove LOTR is better, get the mods involved. But if one person is making an observation of both fandoms and wants a true discussion, they should be permitted to hold one. I don?t want to see us going out, drawing up policies and saying, ?You can?t talk about LOTR here. Go to theonering.net?. How bland and discouraging. We should be welcoming everyone under our wing, not making JC a selective group of SW people holding all the same opinion. Whoever said the conversations would become "I like that", "Me too", and "So do I", I agree with.

    There seems to be bashers for everything ? SW in general, EU, Movies, LOTR bashers (*gasp*), Matrix bashers, and even sci-fi bashers. Even if you stop SW in general/Movie bashers, won?t there be the EU bashers to ?deal? with? Shelley?s sig seems to indicate she frowns upon Mara Jade from the EU. Should that be banned because it might be considered negative to some people?

    Am [face_love]

     
  3. ksid

    ksid Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2002
    My Statement :

    The rules already exist. They need to be enforced.

    Ban people for insults. Ban people for flames. i.e. ban people if there isn't courtesy to other users. That should bring the boards into balance.

    Otherwise let their be free and fair speech.

    Also, this thread is skewed and is not representative. I haven't seen much mention of LOTR in the AOTC forums lately anyway. It's already died down.
     
  4. Master Salty

    Master Salty Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 1999
    I've noticed the same thing. This is almost to the point of being a moot issue.
     
  5. Amidala_Skywalker

    Amidala_Skywalker Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 2001
    Sounds like a dictatorship rather than a Star Wars internet message board.

    If people are banned for the smallest things ? for example, one user thought another wasn?t courteous enough to them ? it would create much conflict. People would oppose bannings, state reasons, poke holes in why they were banned, etc. The amount of people banned would go up. In effect, banning a user on the basis of their statements depends on interpretations. Everyone sees things in a different light.

    At the moment, I feel the mods are doing their jobs. I would think this discussion made the mods think deeper into this issue ? which has been stated to be almost insignificant. We seem to be getting onto what defines general rudeness, not LOTR fanboys and the sort.

    The mods are the ones that ban people. They decide. We have to trust that they will do the job they were picked for. If they?re not, they will be reported to Josh, Vert, or anyone of those high-ranking Admins.

    Am [face_love]
     
  6. ReaperFett

    ReaperFett Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 9, 1999
    One problem with the freedom of speech thing. This was directed at me in the TTT thread in Community:


    A little off topic, but don't you just love it when overly critical fanboys without an ounce of apparent movie industry background review movies as if they have the mysterious power to channel the spirit of Gene Siskel rip every aspect of a movie, then claim to love it anyways, only to cry and moan when nobody else agree with them?


    Is that not against my freedom of speech? I put down my opinions for others to read, and get insulted for it?
     
  7. Master Salty

    Master Salty Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 1999
    That was an asinine thing to say towards your review.
     
  8. ksid

    ksid Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2002
    Is that not against my freedom of speech? I put down my opinions for others to read, and get insulted for it?

    Yep people always insult the critics for some reason.
     
  9. royalguard96

    royalguard96 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2001
    While no one wants to squash exchanges of opinions, I think a lot of the bitterness Shelley and other feel is the amount LOTR-fanboyishness seems awfully high for a Star Wars message board. Are people allowed to like or love other films? Of course. But it's taking the next step, the extreme SW bashing in this place in particular that has people all riled up.

    There is a middle ground, and if people respect each other's opinions, remember where they are, there shouldn't be a problem. And when there is, hopefully we'll have good enough mod coverage to deal with it.
     
  10. JediGaladriel

    JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 1999
    Not so fast. RF has a point, and I agree, though I think it's a bit more subtle than a "freedom of speech" issue.

    Theoretically, anarchy is perfectly fine. Everyone is tending his or her own affairs without interference. But there's a reason every society ends up with a government: in practice, without some kind of system of rules to protect those who are shy or not physically strong or whatnot, you end up with the rule of the fist--the one who is loudest/biggest/strongest etc ends up dominating, and that's no more fair or democratic than having the government shut down presses... though it's less inherently dangerous, since the bullying in question isn't likely to lead to jail time or execution or whatnot, as it is with the government.

    I think there is something of a responsibility to help people have a pleasant experience, make sure that they aren't shouted off the floor when they try to present their opinions, and generally create an atmosphere of civility appropriate to the tone of each forum (obviously, there's a lot more jocularity in YJCC than in the Senate), and the reason is to protect freedom of speech, so that those who prefer to speak quietly still have a chance to be heard.

    What Shelley's question boils down to, once all the specifics and digressions on the thread are set aside, is simply whether or not the discussion threads should basically be the same--is it a legitimate expectation to assume that what is permitted in discussion of AotC is permitted in discussion of the Thrawn Trilogy, or that what is forbidden in discussion of the Truce at Bakura is forbidden in discussin of The Phantom Menace?

    There's also the technical question of whether or not repeated LotR threads are redundant or point out different things, and whether LotR posts in the course of other topics are considered off-topic.

    The first question, of whether or not it's legitimate to expect different forums to have the same parameters, is one that we're all going back and forth on with no answer. I haven't made a secret of the fact that I agree with Shelley: you should be able to get a general feel for the level of civility on all discussion boards based on the one you're participating in. But I also understand the perspective that people who disagree are coming from.

    The second one is just slippery. IMHO, of course the use of any movie (LotR, The Matrix, Spider-man, etc) as a bludgeon against the movies we're all actually here to discuss is a de facto flame... but not so fast on the question of, "Hey, I watched both of these movies, and I think you can see some parallels." And if you're discussing thematic influences on Lucas in a Misc thread, it would be insane not to mention Tolkien.

    At any rate, before the next flavor-of-the-month comparison movie comes out, it would be a good idea to have a set policy: one official comparison thread, or as many as people want?
     
  11. anidanami124

    anidanami124 Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 24, 2002
    Ok people want a comparison thread. But the comparison threads end up becoming My movie was better then your movie. It is no longer a comparison thread.

    I would like to give any exmaple of what I mean. There used to be a thread where me and some other people I know posted. We don't any more. It was the Love Story thread. We would talk about the Love Story. Well some people who did not like it came in to the thread and started telling about how they did not like it. In fact it was all off topic. In time someone came in and wanted to talk about how much they liked the Love Story and what parts they liked about it they wre bomberd with posts about hwo Anakin was a killer and Padme was dumb. So we left that thread. It was no longer about the Love Story in AOTC. It was know about how people hated it.

    So what I am I getting at here. Well it's this: If there is a thread that is about AOTC don't go any and start posting TTT is much better then AOTC and you all know it. That is off topic and trolling. If you have nothing to add to the topic other then that then don't post. If there is a comparison thread then compare. Don't start posting TTT is much better then AOTC and you all know it. Compare then movies. Don't give your reveiw of TTT. Remember this is a Star Wars fan forum 1st. If you want to talk about just LOTR here then you can go to the

    YJCC Here's a link to it.

    Here's a link to the Misc

    This borad is for thing that have to do with SW but can't go into The OT, EP3, AOTC, or TPM borads because it has to do with more then one of the movies. I'm posting these links so people will go to those part of the borads. Oh on a side note if it's ok to talk about TTT in a thread that has to do with AOTC's or TPM. Then I want to talk about the WWE/ECW/WCW.

     
  12. Shelley

    Shelley Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2001
    I just would like to ask the people in charge on this site: do you want a message board full of people who do nothing but complain and whine about the very movies this board is supposed to be about? It seems to me like everything about the site is slanted toward the basher mentality, from the PT forums to the news section, in which negative news is regularly posted and vicious, hateful comments in the press are described as "funny," to the reviews of so-called "rival" movies, which contain remarks about how "such-and-such filmmaker realizes what Lucas doesn't: that effects should be part of a story, instead of the story itself."

    Expounding on that, the so-called rivalries between SW and LOTR/Matrix/whatever are regularly played up, with stuff like Joshua Griffin's editorial in which he said Lucas had to "win back" fans with AOTC or they'd leave for LOTR/Matrix/whatever. (Well, what's stopping them? Good riddance, I say!) The online petition to have Peter Jackson take over Episode III was treated as a serious news byte, and it was only after much complaining that it was shunted off to the "Humor" section, as if it was actually a joke (which it wasn't).

    I am not asking for a site full of gushers. I just don't see why things have to be so encouraging of negativity.
     
  13. Master Salty

    Master Salty Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 1999
    I think you're reading WAY too much into what's happening around this site. I'll ask you again. What difference does it make if people slam what you obssessively love? How does that affect your fandom?
     
  14. Shelley

    Shelley Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2001
    Consider this: if you were ignored by every user at JC for months on end, wouldn?t you go away?

    Probably, but I am not a basher.

    Unfortunately as you implied, since there is ?too much to ignore?, users respond and toss fuel into the fire. People who make comments like ?LOTR rules! SW is old and sucks!? thrive off the reaction they receive from SW-lovers, and when they don?t receive a reaction, they?re disappointed.

    But they don't go away, and usually redouble their efforts, using socks to make their numbers seem higher.

    Shelley, can you tell us what actions the parents of the said child would take to stop the bullying?

    Complaining to the principal, at the very least.

    Would the bully be expelled?

    No, unless the bully repeatedly ignored warnings.

    Applying it to our situation, should we expel/ban all the users that give their opinion of SW in comparison to LOTR?

    Not at all. It is one thing to give an opinion, it is another to use LOTR as a bludgeon against SW.

    What?s normal? More positive SW talk, less LOTR?

    More positive SW talk, less use of LOTR as a bludgeon against SW. If you like LOTR better, what's stopping you from going to TORn?

    get the mods involved. But if one person is making an observation of both fandoms and wants a true discussion, they should be permitted to hold one.

    Of course. But I've seen very little of that. I've seen plenty of "Why can't Lucas be more like Peter Jackson?" "TTT rules, AOTC sucks!" "If Episode III isn't any good, I'm leaving for LOTR!" (although of course they claimed the same thing about AOTC, and while some of them said they liked AOTC, they never said anything positive about it, which leads me to believe they only said they liked it to justify their continued presence on these forums).

    I don?t want to see us going out, drawing up policies and saying, ?You can?t talk about LOTR here. Go to theonering.net?. How bland and discouraging. We should be welcoming everyone under our wing, not making JC a selective group of SW people holding all the same opinion. Whoever said the conversations would become "I like that", "Me too", and "So do I", I agree with.

    You don't need vicious bashing for conversations to be interesting.

    There seems to be bashers for everything ? SW in general, EU, Movies, LOTR bashers (*gasp*), Matrix bashers, and even sci-fi bashers. Even if you stop SW in general/Movie bashers, won?t there be the EU bashers to ?deal? with?

    The difference is that the EU bashers are instructed to keep it in one or two threads. Not so in the movie forums. Plus, it is interesting how bashing of the movies is allowed in the EU forums, but if someone criticizes the EU in the movie forums, they're jumped on by fifty EU fans demanding that they justify their stance.
     
  15. Quixotic-Sith

    Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2001
    Okay, this thread is going nowhere. If y'all want to open up a new thread, discussing solely the question of consolidated LOTR threads, feel free. I'm happy to discuss the proposal of ideas for the TPM and AOTC forums, and I know YodaJeff will help, too.

    The question of "bashing" is a null set until some sort of definition is agreed upon - as of right now, the conversation has been:

    Bashers suck!
    They sure do!
    Wait! Other opinions count!
    You're right! But not bashing!
    Hey, what do you mean by bashing?
    ...
    Bashers suck! Let's kick them out or make them go somewhere else!
    Yeah!
    No!
    What constitutes bashing?
    ...
    Bashers suck!
    What constitutes bashing?
    ...

    And therein lies the problem. We don't need threads that don't see fit to define their terms as we will equivocate ourselves to death.

    Again, the LOTR thread issue, which can be resolved, is separate from the "basher" issue, which cannot be resolved. And in regards to the "same standards" issue, both Lit and the Movie Forums are bound to the common standard of the TOS; beyond that it's a judgment call. But that is also an issue for a different thread.

    Click.
     
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