PT The factors of victory in Lightsaber duels (analysing them)

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by BoromirsFan, Mar 2, 2012.

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  1. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    One thing that has always boggled my mind is the way victory is played through the prequel ligthtsaber duels. I love them but I find difficulty in seeing a clear cut victor. I bolded some prominent situations that make me think.



    Perhaps I am looking into this too much, but I want a discussion nonetheless.

    Lets get started then shall we?

    1)Qui-Gon vs Darth Maul on Tatooine. No real conclusion but Qui-Gon seems absolutely floored when he comes up. Was it the desert that tired him or just being plain caught off guard?

    2)Duel of the Fates. Darth Maul doesn't attack much, he is constantly retreating underthe assault of two Jedi, he seems to be in control of the duel though, as he knocks Obi-Wan away, then later takes him out of the duel temporarily. With Qui-Gon he kicks him away three times, but Qui-Gon is constantly on Maul, forcing him back relentlessly.

    3)Qui-Gon vs Darth Maul. Qui-Gon gets a bit of time to rest but it seems to be to no avail. The forcing Maul back seems to backfire as the shape of the room allows Maul to reverse it on Qui-Gon. Some say he was just getting older and tired, and one slipup did him in. (Maul's stun maneuver) So is it assumed that Maul is the superior fighter despite Qui-Gon being a Master?

    4) Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul. Obi-Wan is not pleased. Very nice duel, though i wished it was longer :'( we see Obi-Wan fighting with a newfound fury, and he actually manages to break ground on Maul and reduce his threat (cutting the saber in two, plus he lands a kick on Maul) Still it seems Obi-Wan used a burst of energy and slows down at the end, and his positioning allows Maul to throw him into the pit. Obi-Wan then cuts Maul in half in a surprise move. Does this mean Obi-Wan is the greater fighter or like Qui-Gon, did Maul just make a mistake of no return?

    I will post the other duels later, I don't want to post a whole storm only for a Mod to lock this for being irrelevant or redundant.

    I hope there is something useful for discussion from this post! :)
  2. MandalorianDuchess Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2010
    star 3
    Didn't Qui-Gon & Ani more or less have to run back to the ship?
  3. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    5)Obi-Wan vs Darth Tyranus. Weak. For someone who fought with such fury 10 years before, he seems to be struggling so much here. Dooku doesn't seem to be fighting as intensely as Maul did, or should I not consider choreography when thinking of Dueling power? Or did the Arena tire him out? its sad to see him lose so soundly to dooku twice.

    6)Anakin vs Darth Tyranus. Not a question here. I wished the dual saber and glow in the dark moments were longer. The duel was simple, Dooku was better, Anakin was nowhere near his level.

    7)Yoda vs Darth Tyranus. No question here. Yoda is better

    8) Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Tyranus. Much better duel than all of episode II's duels. Obi-Wan puts up a better fight but still gets caught of guard. Dooku gets defeated but wait. How come Dooku could compete with Yoda but is defeated by Anakin? I know Anakin has improved but he didn't fight at the same speed as the Yoda/Dooku fight.

    9)Obi-Wan vs Grievous. one of the worst ligthsaber duels in the saga.

    10) Mace Windu and crap jedi vs Darth Sidious. The decision to make the other Jedi look completely incompetant saddens me, but I understand the rationale, as they wanted to show Sidious was amazingly powerful. It just looked like the jedi sucked though, not that sidious was powerful. The duel is not particularly fast, so as someone who viewed intenser duels in the past, it makes me wonder if these two masters are truly as powerful as they are hyped up to be.

    11)Yoda vs Sidious. Yoda fights with less intensity this time. Sidious is slower than ever. I understand the need to visually make the duels look different so there is no sense of redundancy, but I felt Yoda and Sidious should have been faster, it makes them look weak.

    12) Obi-Wan vs Darth Vader. Quite possibly the most intense duel of the saga, it starts out very fast and showcases the power of the wielders. Makes me wonder if Vader was truly stronger but lost because he made a fatal mistake (like so many others)

    My point is this. If i judge these duels based on the intensity of the fights and the overall records of the fighters, i could say this.

    Obi-Wan > Anakin > Darth Maul > Yoda > Darth Tyranus > Qui-Gon > Darth Sidious > Mace Windu > Grievous > Fisto > Tinn > Kolar>the rest

    How can I believe that Mace Windu is #2 Jedi when he fights at a walking pace?
  4. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Fights are never stone, paper, scissors.
  5. Darthbane2007 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2007
    star 4
    The TPM novel more or less states that Qui-Gon was nearing 60 and as a result has become a little rusty.

    Also you can say that the Jedi haven't fought Sith since the ruusan conflict and so are caught off guard by their fighting..
  6. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    I just always thought that if you had assumed a certain mastery of the force, there was no way you could lose to a lesser user.

    The true mastery of the Force would augment their skills with a blade, allowing them to have flawless offense and defense.

    I thought Yoda and Sidious achieved this, but perhaps I was mistaken.

    I do think the various factors enabling the duels makes it stick in my mind more. More stuff for my brain to process! Another positive quality of the prequels! Its never black and white!

    (another thing to ponder)

    The duels with CGI characters....are they short because they are expensive to animate or is it very difficult?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMaJzlAJXPg This one is really short.....

    I wonder why so much effort was put on the CGI characters dueling if it was going to be so short.
  7. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    That's not what the force is about. Like Yoda said: Wars do not make one great. Just like duels don't make one great. The force is much more than just a tool in lightsaber duels. It does help, yes, but I doubt it is THE deciding factor.
  8. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Lightsaber duels aren't a card game where you simply compare the two values of the combatants and determine a winner. A lot more goes into winning than who is the strongest in the Force. You've got to factor in fatigue, the environment, tactics and many other concerns. You can't just say "Well person A beat person B, and person B beat person C, so person A should always beat person C," because that sort of logic simply doesn't work.

    The Tatooine duel, for example, has a lot of factors to consider. Qui-Gon had a nine-year-old kid with him, not to mention everyone else who was on the ship. It simply wasn't prudent for Qui-Gon to have a protracted duel with Maul in that case, not with everyone else's lives on the line. The only reasonable course of action was for him to disengage from the duel as soon as possible and make his escape.
  9. JediofJade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 5
    WRT to the Dooku/Anakin duel in Episode III, I wonder if Palpatine was not somehow throwing the fight, so to speak, and either heightening Anakin's powers, messing with Dooku's, or both to ensure that Dooku is killed.

    I also wonder if Anakin, being more in tune with the Dark Side before succumbing to it (history of violent temper, breakdowns that lead to him touching the DS) is somehow better matched with Dooku in Episode III, having the advantage of more experience and better training, as well as a tinge of DS power(as opposed to Obi-wan, who would have no such DS influence working on him). Were the Jedi trained in all lightsaber fighting styles, including those influenced by the Dark Side? Would Anakin, tapping into those DS qualities of aggression and hate, be intuitively better equipped to match Dooku? [face_thinking]
  10. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Well, sure. The ROTS novel makes it clear that it's Anakin's rage that defeats Dooku; that, and his will to win at all costs. His physical strength was also a factor; Dooku was getting overwhelmed at just that.
  11. JediofJade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 5
    Would Anakin have been able to defeat Dooku without that Dark Side influence? Keeping in mind that Obi-wan, who probably had about the same physical advantage over Dooku as Anakin - who was also able to more than hold his own against Anakin - was unable to do much damage to Dooku.
  12. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I think so. In the novel, he was winning against Dooku even before he used the Dark Side. The film doesn't show it particularly well, but the novel makes it extremely clear that Dooku is in over his head against Obi-Wan and Anakin.
  13. JediofJade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 5
    Okay, yeah, the movie doesn't make that clear at all.
  14. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I think the only real point where you could kinda get that by implication in the film is right before Anakin and Dooku go one on one; if Obi-Wan had simply gone with a thrust instead of attempting that slow overhead cut, Dooku woulda gotten skewered.

    The book makes it quite clear that Dooku is outmatched, swords-wise, anyway. He can't penetrate Obi-Wan's defensive swordsmanship any more than Grievous could, and couldn't attempt an effective defense against Anakin's brutally strong offense.
  15. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    I don't think Dooku was outmatched against Obi-Wan. The film made it very clear that the Count is much more than Old Ben can handle alone.
  16. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    That's not what the book says; it makes it clear that Obi-Wan's defense combined with Anakin's offense is far too much for Dooku.
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The PT films have a lot of moments like that. Sometimes you have to chalk it up to suspension of disbelief.
  18. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    The crucial word being "combined." I have no doubt that Dooku was on the ropes with both of them attacking him, but I wanted to clarify that Obi-Wan alone is still no match for Dooku, as his nap beneath the collapsed walkway attests.
  19. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Don't think that was ever a question.
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