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  1. Casper_Knightshade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2000
    star 6
  2. Ty-gon Jinn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2000
    star 4
    Whoa, Rok, I think you hit the nail on the head there. Everybody is semi-obsessed with her... I think Enothchild is only not really obsessed because he's forced himself not to be, too. He was there when she went into the coma the first time, he was there when Bendian was killed... Though I realize "She is not your daughter" was not a shot, and referred, at least in part, to the miscarriage, I can't help but think of it also as a gentle reminder that Juna really isn't his daughter. Enothchild is more of a father to her than Sidious could ever hope to be, though that may not last long. Both know that neither could ever near Bendian's stature, but I think Enothchild is partially trying purposefully distance himself from his fatherly love for Juna by concentrating on Naressa.

    Now TSM will have to concentrate on how Padawan Casper falls in love with her...
  3. Delight Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2001
    star 4
    Whoah. I really like the portrayal of tension between the characters. The awkwardness. The tension. The unspoken recriminations and the reluctant caring. :_|

    At what lengths would you go for obsession, indeed. Thanks, Casper, for this wonderful post.
  4. Grand_Admiral_Jaxx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2000
    star 5
    How did I guess?

    That's a good question.

    Let's look at it this way...

    Enothchild: Light side. Passionate about Juna. Willing to die for his honor and his Juna. Has one idea of how to handle Juna.

    Naressa: Sith. Passionate about Juna. Willing to die for her honor and her Gessa. Has one idea of how to handle Juna.

    See how easy it is for them to suddenly be in opposition?

    It's like a game of tug-of-war, and Juna is the rope. But if they're not careful, they'll break the rope.
  5. Grand_Admiral_Jaxx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2000
    star 5
    In retrospect, I could write a critical analysis paper on your works, but since I have a Spanish presentation Thursday, psychology exam Friday, and two papers to write; I may not want to do the critical analysis so soon ;)
  6. Casper_Knightshade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2000
    star 6
    Ty-gon: It took a while, but I think folks were holding out, waiting to see if the obsession angle was really true. In TDH it didn't seem that clear as it went to everyone else; Pern and Prophet were the dominating obsessive forces, but clearly Prophet wanted Juna more; and you know what they say about wanting it more.

    That's why I worked the infatuation angle into a growing up-maturing Juna Rapier to reflect that Sith Maiden alluring aspect. Goes back to The Black Rose, its just in this case Juna's allure is far stronger than Naressa and it affects people far more strongly. What's more it isn't all sexual in nature, which I did that on purpose because I thought just one instinctive point of view would be too predictable and boring if it were the only view taking. To some Juna may appear more charismatic than she all ready is naturally, or she easily readible as kind and gentle. Her presence, one that isn't so dominated by the dark side like Naressa's was even in it's lowest of levels in The Black Rose, brings out the best or worst of people based on who they are. She empowers them, and in turn those emotions that bled off empower her or influence her actions.

    A good example of this is found in two characters not mentioned: Ros and Dizzy. Clearly Ros was just a little infaturated with her on a sexual level, but he was more intrigued with her intellegence; he really, really wanted her to help them and it wasn't because she had access to resources of a material level. For Dizzy, who has Muriel, it's not sexual but still it affects their friendship by making it stronger. Dizzy could be critical of any of his other friends, even his wife, but when it comes to Juna ninety-nine percent of the time he falls on her side. Without the affect the friendship is solid, but with it its like a Wookiee life debt between them.

    Casper is another story......... ;)

    Delight: Thanks. At what lengths says it all, but its not meant for the moment; it's always meant for the things to come. :eek:

    Jaxx: That's a good way to look at it. If this were TDH, you might say you would actually throw in Muriel as well with Naressa and Enothchild and call Juna a three ring puppy chew toy. :p

    You could count Muriel in it again except the last post showed she had enough of the tug of war emotionally. She can't win with Naressa on that front (you should really read that one infamous talking down Naressa gave Muriel in TDH - it's longer but not as worse as this last one.), and really her and Enothchild, unlike TDH, don't have a fight.

    Now remember this as well: in Tug of War, do the individuals purposely go against themselves? They have a center point, and yes two different ways at getting Juna there, and those ways come with risks and weights for themselves: Naressa doesn't want to infect Juna with the dark side, and Enothchild doesn't want to directly interfere in the mother-daughter relationship in any way.

    Well.....too late on the latter. :(

    As for critical analysis: First of all you have plenty of writing to do, so therefore I wouldn't dare ask or beg or accept such an offer from anyone. ;)

    Believe me, I am trying to summarize this story alone on my off time: I can't keep it down to twenty pages. [face_laugh]

    Secondly, I wouldn't want a critical analysis. No offense to ya, Jaxx, but.....it just sounds too much like a downer to me. On one hand it would sound like constructive criticism, and be it bad or for the good I kind of balk at the idea. It's not that I'm afraid of the negatives or the positives (the latter which I get enough of), it just seems out of place when I don't want it. You know how I get when you and excal ask for opinions at the end of your stories, Rok can testify to this too because he did recently: I'm very reluctant because, hell, I was entertained and enjoyed the story: if anyone accomplishes that in a story then I am happy. I actually hate to point out another storyteller's faults when they all ready know them.

    I can honestly say I have made some character errors in the characterization short term, an
  7. Grand_Admiral_Jaxx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2000
    star 5
    what if this entire scene that was actually organized by Rune and the Sith Maidens was just to cause Juna to finally fall?

    I certainly hope not. Although that would be a bit TOO extravagant/extreme, since there are WAY too many variables involved.

    Then again, you never know...

    as for the critical analysis...

    Sorry, I wasn't being clear ;)

    I was thinking critical analysis as a college student's version...

    the topic may have been something like this...

    "Juna is a girl that is torn between characters in a way that she is not aware of. How are her actions a reflection of the other characters? (i.e. When she lashes out in anger- is that because of her Sith upbringing, or is it because of her torture by Magus Prophet, or is it because of the Jedi Council's fumble of her stewardship, or is it because of misguided efforts of Enothchild and Muriel, or is it because of her father's womanizing ways, or is it because of the rape of Jurivicious Pern?) Using that sort of knowledge, what will Juna be like when she finally reaches full maturity?"

    That sort of critical analysis ;)
  8. Ty-gon Jinn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2000
    star 4
    Pick one of the following to clearly answer in an essay, 3-5 pages, double spaced.

    A) As we see here, Darth Sidious is a conflicted character. He is balancing a genuine desire for power in the galaxy with the envy he has against Naressa for being in constant contact with their daughter. Based on the story, is this genuine paternal love? Is it anything more than a plan to get closer to the Dark Hope of the Sith? How does it help to exemplify the conflict between the Sith Order of the Dark Jedi and the true E'sithropic race? Predict the effect this would have on his character based on The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, and Return of the Jedi.

    B) Destruction runs rampant in the Dark Hope/Fading Light story arc. Compared to the actual movies, the stories have far more grand-scale violence, ignoring even Prophet's brutalizations for things on a wider scope. Compare and contrast the destructions of Vhanba, Evramora, and Sanctuary with that of Alderaan. How does this contribute to the chthonic feel of the story?

    C) Define the universe. Be concrete and specific. Give three examples.
    :)
  9. Djuva Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 25, 2000
    star 4

    Just wanted to let you know I'm lurking on page 125! I'm catching up, yeah!
  10. Grand_Admiral_Jaxx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2000
    star 5
    In college, it'd be more like 8-10 pages, at least. ;)
  11. Ty-gon Jinn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2000
    star 4
    Yeah, Jaxx, measly little high school me, I'm still used to the suggested five-page length. :) Of course, I tend to write with a smaller font size than everyone else, so that adds another page right there...
  12. Grand_Admiral_Jaxx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2000
    star 5
    haha, and some people here make their font size slightly larger, and make their spacing 2.5 ;)
  13. Rokangus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2000
    star 5
    And don't forget adding large diagrams, Jaxx. ;) If you space it right you can take up a whole page with a graph of statistics or what not.

    Personally though, I like adding in the ultra-redundant appendixes to the back. That'll usually make up for a page or two. ;)

    But ooooooo, yeah...getting back to this critical post we definitely see a lot of interesting things. Not the least of which, Jaxx already touched upon with the whole idea of just what Faradi and the Deceased Sith Maiden Society are up to. :eek:

    But also I think we're beginning to see the end of the relationship between Naressa and Enothchild, or at least an end to this stage of it. I think Naressa, at least, has realised that the two of them can't be lovers anymore, for Juna's sake if nothing else.

    And I know earlier Enothchild had a vision from Nadja about Juna, but I wonder if he still remembers it? ?[face_plain] It was just before he set out for Sanctuary...

    Well! That's certainly a lot to stew on! ;) Great work!
  14. Whiskey in the Jar-Jar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2000
    star 4
    I'll comment later on the post, Casper...it'll be the usual gushing reply filled with compliments and perhaps a little bit of analysis (not too critical ;) )

    But for now, can I just say to the RIAA: You want people to pay for music? Here's my solution:



    -




    -





    -




    -




    -




    -





    -




    STOP PUBLISHING CRAP!

    Why should I part with $20 of my hard earned money for one bloody song on a CD? Why am I paying for a pile of crap just to have that one nugget of a good song? To that end, why buy that CD when I can turn to any poop...er...pop station and listen as that song is played EVERY 20 MINUTES!

    You want my money, RIAA, Sony, and all you other guys...be like a stripper and WORK FOR IT! OH! OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

    Sorry...had to be said :p (possible spoiler for a rant coming up...)
  15. Grand_Admiral_Jaxx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2000
    star 5
    The RIAA versus Whiskey?

    End result?

    RIAA- OWNED by Whiskey! :p
  16. Delight Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2001
    star 4
    Enothchild heard this all before two years ago and pointed out, "We're never too old to learn from our mistakes."

    Naressa peered downward and said, "Then why haven't I applied what I have learned all ready? Why do I when the very worst has happened? I'm smarter than this."


    [rant]WHY? Why does Naressa have to say the one statement that I ask myself every single day of my life?[/rant] [runs away]

    What lengths indeed. *shamelessly clamours for more of the post*

    Essay Question A sounds good. :)




  17. Rokangus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2000
    star 5
    "Then why haven't I applied what I have learned all ready? Why do I when the very worst has happened? I'm smarter than this."

    Because Naressa has failed to recognize one solid truth about herself.

    Despite all of her super-human powers and abilities...she is still mortal.

    I've been down that way of thinking too. Heck I'm always thinking to myself, "Doh! Not again! I know better!" But then I remember that I'm not so different than everybody else. And believe it or not, everybody has been down the road of "Doh!" before. That's part of the whole blasted, 'human condition'. I believe the scientific term is "Chronic Idiocy". ;)


    And LOL Whiskey on that rant! [face_laugh] Oh man, is funny because its so true. What I never understood was why these record companies never got into the file sharing business themselves? I mean hey, why should they complain, laisse faire, right? Survival of the strongest business? I say, if the Recording business can't keep up with the change of times and technology, then poo on them. :p
  18. Ty-gon Jinn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2000
    star 4
    Chronic Idiocy a symptom of the human condition? Amen, Reverend Rok.

    (At least, I'll keep telling myself he's right... ;) )
  19. Casper_Knightshade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2000
    star 6
    Look at the conversation and discussion! It isn't Late Night Naboo, but it's pretty damn close! :D

    Let's see....

    Jaxx: Oh, that kind of analysis. Well, I was almost right: it seems like a psychological evalutation of sorts. One thing I would change in that is the upbringing part; Sith upbringing would be more like Sithian heritage based on the two parts that created her.

    In general upbringing, Juna was a well sheltered, well protected child with no real social interaction with her own peers until she entered politics and met boys and girls here age. With what appeared to be in the distance on an outsider's point of view was an off scaled relationship with her parents. She appeared to be around her mother more than her father, which wasn't directly Juna's fault. But this is where the preception is flawed, for Juna didn't care if Bendian was there only twenty percent of the time; she cherrished that small percentage and she didn't go way out of her way to seek his approval: as far as she was concerned she was accepted. Also in spite of the lavish surroundings and the guarantees that she wouldn't ever be in poverty Juna wasn't raised to be snobbish or diabotically aristocratic. Although Naressa may be womanly in her charms and ways she still lives life as that of a librarian who lives very meagerly in a house that could fit inside any of the living quarters inside Rapier Manor.

    I could go on, but....

    But I haven't gotten to that part of college yet. ;)

    More or less I'm still in the profiler stages of amaturer psychology. It's not my major or even minor btw. I'm just like everyone else: I read it in a book somewhere. ;)

    Thanks about the spacing deal too.

    Rokangus: Diagrams! YES! This is where doing the macaroni collages from kindergarten pay off! [face_laugh]

    And granted we're all like Naressa in that regard; that we convienently forget the obvious. However it is never ever more profound here and in real life when it reaches the point that it affects you and the ones you love with great impact. When it gets to this point filled with pain we do find ourselves ask that question of ourselves a thousand times over. It could be idiocity, but I dare not say that to a grieving family based on some circumstances for example.



    Whiskey: SCORE!

    Music has been for the last few years, mainstream stuff anyways, has been one big stinky pile of crap and worse that pile is just getting bigger and bigger. There are exceptions, but here's the problem: the exceptions to that are fewer now more than ever. Nu-metal is getting annoying and cliched; Rap/Hip-Hop/RB has finally hit a suck period; don't get me started on Pop; alternative should stay dead; and even the Old Foggies that still sound good have never been so damn lame it's pathetic because at 60, 70, and some areas 80 they're regulated to augmenting that small few that are making a market impact. I thought I would never see the day again that old style Country and Western, not the suped up pop style, was augmented the market greatly and truth be told this was happening before 9/11.

    Part of me is dying for the Opera/Death/Life Metal bands to storm the States from Europe and Canada and hell even from that foreign country called Los Angeles ( ;) )to save us from the hybrid junk and destroy it! Another part of me also says they should stay obscure so the RIAA or major record labels doesn't screw them up too: musically and artistically they are far more superior to anything out right now and a major record label would find a way to ruin them.

    Those few exceptions that are holding the market: even I can't get on their bandwagon. I'm sure Linkin Park is great, their radio stuff is good, but they lack something and that something is why I don't spend 20 bucks on their CDs. Creed's another, but although I like their sound I'm not racing to the store. Nowadays I'm just looking for that Iron Maiden album I grew up with on CD.

    Now there's even acts/performers that are screwing up their abilities. A good example: Evanescence. Folks hear that Linkin
  20. Rokangus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2000
    star 5
    They were now more than ever, and hence have come full circle in their relationship that began with Juna in trouble. Indeed, after all these years, nothing has changed.

    Yeah, that's irony for you alright. But I suppose we could have seen it coming. Personalities are among the most stable entities in the known universe. ;)

    Pity that Muriel and Dizzy did leave. I sense a growing rift between them and Naressa in the future...

    One more post to go!? :eek: Oy crud! Why do I get the feeling that this next post will be much like the last post of TDH? ?[face_plain]

  21. Casper_Knightshade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2000
    star 6
    Well, I think it will be the last post: I want this finished before Friday. I mean that's when X2 comes out for crying out loud!

    FARK!
  22. Delight Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2001
    star 4
    Interesting comparision with the TDH ending. I was just thinking the same.

    But things have changed. Whether they want it or not. Between the two of the them they might have returned to balance, but what about the rest of the galaxy? If nothing else it has become more, well, blinded to the politics that will destroy the Republic. Things are going down the drain at an ever increasing rate. That is what's changing.

    FRIDAY? *looks at the finishing line and sighs*
  23. Whiskey in the Jar-Jar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2000
    star 4
    Just one more day, eh?

    Well, just one or two more threads to go and I'll be leaving this board behind...'persuaded' to enter into the split project permanently...oye. :(

    But, I didn't come here to rant about that...been there done that got the hat 'cause they were all outta shirts ;)

    I think I'm understanding more of why Enothchild left the order, and it was to protect the Rapiers in a way he couldn't before. As a Jedi, Enothchild was committed to eliminating the Dark Side wherever and whenever it reared its supposedly ugly head. Common sense is replaced by the sense of duty, and the blinders of oath and edict replace the objective eye when you're a Jedi.

    I've done some studying up on medieval history, in particular the area around the Crusades. I'm amazed at how well your depictions of the three opposing sides of this galactic conflict reflect the attitudes of the opposing sides in medieval times.

    Did I say three? Yep.

    First you have the Jedi: Knights of the Light Side, or on the side of Christianity. To them, theirs is the ONLY true light in the universe, and to even be grayed slightly in that light is cause for your immediate elimination (out out damned spot, and all that felgercarb).

    Now, you have the Sith: Beings (not agents, not lords, not knights) of the Dark Side...or what at least is perceived as Darkness by the Light because it is different. Their ways are more primal and much closer to nature in their ways. Bereft of the technological advances made by other civilizations, I see the ancient Sith as beings who made do with what they had and came up with an interpretation of the Force that was all their own. I see the Muslim side of the Crusades conflicts in this light: Different, exotic, and more pragmatic than the Anglo-Saxon Christian way of life.

    As much as this pains me, I see a parallel to Enothchild and Naressa in El Cid. In the movie, Roderigo's Christian army joins forces with a large Spanish Muslim army to beat back their foes at Valencia, while drawing the ire of the Christian king of Spain.

    In the case of TDH, we have Enothchild realizing that the very faith he serves is seemingly lacking in open-mindedness, and in order for him to do what he believes to be right, he has to forsake the institution that raised him and follow a path that even the Jedi fear: The path of union between light and dark.

    DISCLAIMER: I'm not comparing Enothchild to Charlton (Or charlitan, your call ;) ) Heston...I would NEVER equate such a fanfic icon to him.

    Oh, that third side of the conflict? Dark Jedi (the TRUE corrupters of the Force), akin to greedy leaders who try to turn normally peaceful people into holy warriors. For a better description of these glaring justifications for lifeguards in the gene pool, see most of the Middle East. ;)

    <hands cramping up now...must rest ;) >

  24. Rokangus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2000
    star 5
    Woohoo for X2!!! And I have no class on Fridays!! You know what that means! ;) :D

    Wow, Whiskey! :eek: You know the more I thought about that little comparison the made, the more I thought: "Oy, Crikey! I think he's done got something there!" :eek:

    Pretty dag-gum on the money. Though technically, form what I remember of history, the Muslims of the era were more technically advanced than the Christians. The moors had developed a way of curing cataracts while the Christians were still carving crosses on peoples' scalps, sprinkling salt, and praying for the best. Coincidentally, it was all the Knights returning in the eleventh or so century who brought back a lot of the greek texts and learnings that got the Rennaissance off the ground a century or two later.

    Oy, that went longer than I meant it to. :(

    But eh, judging from the Sith we've seen through Casper's imagination, I think they've got a few things figured out that the Jedi don't even have a clue to. That's what makes 'em seem so exotic and bizarre as you pointed out, Whiskey. ;)

    Hee, hee, Charlitan Heston, hee, hee. [face_laugh] That'll have e going all day!
  25. Whiskey in the Jar-Jar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2000
    star 4
    I remember my history prof telling the class about a Muslim-Christian doctor who travelled to Christian lands.

    He happened upon two people in distress: One was a knight suffering from a major boil on his leg, and the other was a lady who was exremely ill.

    Now, the doctor examined the Knight and did what he normally does in such a situation: Made the Knight bite some wood while he lanced the boil and then packed it with clay to draw out the rest of the crud.

    As for the woman, he talked to her about her symptoms and concluded that she was allergic to garlic (poor lady :( ). He advised her to lay off the garlic and she began to recover.

    Not too long after, a Christian doctor showed up, took one look at what was going on and wigged out!

    He figured the Knight had been beset upon by the Devil in the form of a boil. So, the Christian doctor calls an axeman into the place to amputate the leg and exorcise the demon within. Three strokes with a dull axe later, the Knight bled to death.

    Now, for the woman. The Christian doctor in his infinite wisdom figured an exorcism was in order to dispel her fever of the mind (btw, from which she'd recovered by this time).

    He shaved her head, cut a crucifix shape into the top layer of her skin on her head, rubbed it with salt and prayed. When it was done, the woman was in agony but believed she was cured of the demon. She went back to her normal garlic filled diet and died not soon after.

    Needless to say, the Muslim-Christian doctor went back to civilization shaking his head all the way.

    ---

    Gruesome, eh? :eek:

    I wasn't trying to say that the ancient Muslims were primitive, but that they viewed things around them with a much more perceptive eye, giving them a more natural perspective on things. IMHO, praying for a cure to a disease seems more primitive, especially when there are treatments designed to cure said disease.

    I'm not knocking religion by any stretch, folks. Believe what you will and how you will; that's your right. You have your ways and I have mine, and that's okie-day wit' mesa :D
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