The Failures of the Sith

It is most interesting to note that while the Sith Lords spent 1,000 years plotting to rule the galaxy, they saw it all come to ruin within a quarter century. Let's recount & discuss some of the missteps the Sith made to bring them to this sorry state.

One that struck me is the astounding level of trust shown by Lord
Sidious of Lord Vader. Knowing that the Sith are always conspiring against each other, why in the Nine Hells would a Sith Master allow a Sith Apprentice unfettered access to the biggest gun in the history of the galaxy? What's even more egregious is that the Apprentice then proceeds to allow it to be destroyed!

Had Darth Vader been a worthy Sith Lord, Tarkin would've been dead soon after making the incredibly arrogant decision to launch only a tiny fraction of the Death Star's fighter complement.

Then there's Darth Loquacious, Lord Vader's master. Darth Sidious had the perfect apprentice in his grasp, and despite the errors in judgement that I'll recount another time, has him right on the verge of making him his servant, and then he wouldn't shut up! When a hero is about to do something villainous, you let him! You don't tell that he's about to perform an evil deed!

More to come. In the meantime, please discuss other observations of your own...

 

One thing I find somewhat ironic is that the same arrogance and hubris that makes Darth Sidious so certain he can co-opt the Chosen One for his own ends ultimately becomes his undoing.
The Jedi Council initially refuse to train Anakin as a Jedi because they sense that he's an unpredictable X-factor in the cosmic scheme of things, and disrupts their sense of order. When they do decide to take him on and let Obi-Wan train him, they do so reluctantly, and Anakin feels like they're keeping him on a short leash. So Palpatine is actually correct (at least to some extent) when he tells Anakin that the Jedi fear his power because they won't be able to control him.
Palpatine has no such doubts about his own ability to harness Anakin's power for his own ends, and that sheer audaciousness is what gives him the edge over the failing Jedi. On the other hand, this means that Palpatine never saw it coming when Vader picked him up and threw him down the reactor shaft!
"Faith in your new apprentice, misplaced may be. As is your faith in the Dark Side of the Force!"

 

There are some good points here. Let's not overdo ourselves though and say that the Sith went extinct after 1,000 years, books accepted, C'boath etc. And as far as Palpatine having Vader be his undoing in the end, well, he did have a few decades run at ruling the entire galaxy which ain't bad. He couldn't have done it forever, so in essence he did achieve his goals. He wiped out all the Jedi, save Yoda and Ben, and he brought the Sith back to power and became supreme ruler. Nothing lasts forever, and he would have known this. If there was a failure in the Sith's reigns it is this.....they don't work together very well. Independently though, they are dangerous.

 

Darth Loquacious, this is great --- I've been argueing this point myself for quite some time. If he'd just kept his mouth shut Luke might actually have turned. But talking too much instead of getting the job done almost got him into trouble at the beginning of the fight with Yoda already.

I'd like to add another possible failure on Sids part, one I just realized recently, when reading this info posted by sithreaper on the ?ultimate star wars visuals guide?: As of the start of ROTJ Vader was still planning to kill palpatine (with Lukes help) but when Palpatine told vader that Luke would surrender himself to Vader & Luke did, the darklord believed that Palpatine powers were so great that he had foreseen everything. So he knew he was simply destined to be a pawn in Palpatines plan, however when Luke refuses to kill Vader, Vader realizes that Palpatine is fallible & thus can be defeated.

When rewatching ROTJ I also had the feeling that Vader had sort of given up on the attempt to kill Sids with Lukes help, at the latest when Luke actually arrived on Endor and surrendered to him. He makes no statement in that scene talking to Luke that he has any inclination to overthrow the Emperor with Luke's help, quite contrary to their confrontation in ESB. "It is too late for me, son."..."He is your master now". Not much hope in these lines.

And in the end, yes, he realized that Sids could be defeated, but I think he also realized that this would cost his own life as well. In a sense, then, couldn't it be argued that he had already quit being a Sith by that time. Your model Sith apprentice doesn't give up on the idea of overthrowing his master and seizing power himself, does he? Up to, let's say, about the middle of ROTJ, the whole issue with Luke and trying to overthrow the Emperor still was about power, but in the end, it wasn't about power at all any longer, since he knew when attacking Sidious he was going to be dead. It only was about saving Luke from death.

Ironic... when Sids finally had managed dismantle all of Anakin's ambitions and turn him into a completely loyal and obedient servant, this very fact paved the way for his own downfall. He practically induced the reverse development compared to what he did to turn him in ROTS. In ROTS, he turned him to become a Sith by promising him power - in ROTJ he in essence lead him to accept that he was powerless and thus contributed to his turn back. Somehow his psychological insight failed him during that time. Didn't he realize that someone who had given up on all ambitions to achieve power couldn't any longer be considered a Sith?

 

There were 2 main problems with the Empire: Vader was, in my opinion, never a TRUE Sith in his heart, and his children were allowed to escape. If someone like Darth Maul (someone baptised by the Sith, never corrupted by the Jedi philosophy or family/romantic attachments) had been his pupil while Palpatine was Emperor, there would have been less friction between them and more communication. Of course, Maul would try to overthrow him someday, but would make sure that it would have been a bloodless coupe or simple assassination, so there would be minimal damage done to the Empire, and no threat of a civil war. He would want to keep the machines working properly, so he could pick up where his master left off, and run the galaxy while searching for a worthy pupil.

I think Vader regretted his decision to become a Sith from the moment he woke up on the slab and heard that Padme (the reason he betrayed his Jedi family) had died. Now, he's horribly maimed, encased in a walking prison, his love is dead, he believes his child is dead, the Jedi Order is gone, he betrayed Mace and killed Younglings, and now he's signed a contract with the Devil himself. And it just so happens that the Devil is the Emperor of the galaxy, so it's not like he can just run off. He can't even kill himself because he's so filled with rage and hate, all he can do is try to maintain order over others by crushing a rebellion.

So, if Sidious and Maul are ruling together, and all the Jedi are dead (Obi-Wan and Yoda would have no heirs to pass their knowledge to), I don't think the Rebellion could have lasted. The Empire collapsed because of Leia, Luke and Anakin. Without them, the Empire could have ruled for a very long time (but not forever!)

 

He couldn't have done it forever, so in essence he did achieve his goals.

i'm thinking that he wants the extraordinary power of luke and anakin to achieve immortality, so that he could rule forever, in essence.

i agree with most of your points, mandragora, i think his fabulous insight failed him when he had dismantled anakin. or his ambitions.

it seems that his insight fails him throughtout the OT, maybe he also becomes too sure of himself, like a certain order, or he's just too detached from what is really going on.

essentially he has to make anakin believe that he can never turn back (probably just like the jedi preached all day long 'forever it will dominate your destiny' anyone?). but by doing that he also kills his ambition.

essentially, just as the jedi lose contact to the real world, palps has in ROTJ.

other than that i cannot think of a failure on his side.

 

How about the possibility that Emperor holds back time and again from taking the opportunities to destroy the rebels. "What of the word of a rebel fleet massing near Sullust?" This line tells me that the Emp had bigger plans to wipe out the Alliance once and for all with his trap. But here is the dilema. Wasn't he smarter than that to put all of his eggs in one basket? I guess not. That was a pretty big failure to me. As was the dicision to turn Luke in ESB rather than kill him. I know they wanted the "great asset", but did they really need it. It seems fool hearty to attempt something so difficult when you had so much to protect and so much to loose. They should have killed him. But here I suppose, the Emp thought it might be too much to ask of Vader. I don't know........but a failure?

 

i'm not sure. if palps needs a greater power than anakin's it was well worth trying to turn luke.
and i guess he pretty much thinks vader is beyond caring for his son, he will ask him to duel his son.

 

Another couple of failures on the part of Lord Sidious:
By saving Lord Vader on Mustafar, he sowed the seeds of his own destruction.

He assumed that Luke turning to the dark side would make young Skywalker automatically loyal to him. Bad assumption on his part. Actually, compared to the effort & patience he showed in luring Anakin to serve the Sith, Darth Sidious was incredibly impatient when it came to turning Luke.

 

Then again, Luke was standing right there before him, poised to destroy the Sith. It was either Luke turns, or the Emperor goes down. Remember, Luke, at this point -- silly midichlorians, silly Lucas -- is as powerful as Anakin had been before his injuries, which -- according to Lucas -- was twice as powerful as the Emperor. It was turn Luke to his side, let Luke join Vader and die by his hand, or have to kill Luke and lose the best option for apprenticeship and continuation of the Empire that he had.

Then again, this is part of the Emperor's failure. This is a desperate grab for power. He knows that Vader will kill him. Such is the way of the Sith. In having Luke kill Vader, the Emperor would secure, not only "a new apprentice, far younger and more powerful," but a few decades left to his reign.

Of course, another failure of the Sith -- besides Anakin's getting maimed and becoming less valuable in the Emperor's eyes, and in Sidious' being fooled by the ruse played at Padme's funeral (being prepared to appear pregnant) -- is Palpatine's inability to know the extent of Anakin's hunger for power. Whereas Maul was completely devoted as a fairly young man, and Dooku was old enough to want to usurp his master aftert ten years, Anakin chooses to overthrow the Emperor about half a day after turning.

 

Mandragora has some interesting points. I would add that I believe that Vader often rationalizes what that what he's doing is right when it's wrong. We see that during Revenge of the Sith. At one point Anakin lies to Padme in such a way that he lies to himself. I think that Anakin honestly thought that he would be a greater leader than Sidious/Palpatine. In the ROTS novel, he tells Padme on Mustafar that the Emperor will do all the messy work to the unite the galaxy...unite it against him, that is. Afterward he would overthrow Sidious to become a greater leader. Of course, Anakin is so blinded by the dark side that he doesn't know that in taking Sidious's place he could become the very evil he deplores.

By the time we find Vader in the suit, he has lost everything except the dark side. That's all he can live for. However, I believe that Vader was fighting the Rebel Alliance because he viewed it as a "destructive conflict." Like Sidious, he believed that the ends justify the means in how the Empire fought in the Galactic Civil War. When he found Luke, a hope arose within him that he could destroy Sidious and "bring order" to the galaxy.

By the time Sidious told him that he had "foreseen" everything, Vader may have believed it was impossible to overthrow him. I'm certain he could tell that the Emperor wanted to replace him with Luke. It was a no-brainer. Sidious had used Tyranus to replace Maul until brought Vader under his wing. In away, I see Vader in ROTJ in a sense of complete despair. He believes Sidious could make Luke kill him. However, I imagine his sense of love comes within him. He sees so much of himself in his son, so he doesn't want him to be lost to the dark side as he was. When Sidious is killing Luke with that Force lightning, I imagine Vader must have stopped rationalizing and did what was right.

Both the Sith and the Jedi believe in a Chosen One. The Jedi believed theirs would destroy the Sith. The Sith called theirs the Sith'ari. The Sith'ari was said to be a perfect being who would rise to power and bring balance to the Force. According to prophecy, the Sith'ari would rise up and destroy the Sith, but in the process would return to lead the Sith and make them stronger than ever before. It is believed that the prophecy of the Sith Sith'ari and the prophecies of the Jedi Chosen One refer to the same individual; namely Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, who made the Sith stronger than ever by wiping out the Jedi Knights and assisting Darth Sidious in his rise to power, but then destroyed the Sith when he betrayed and killed Sidious, thus fulfilling the ancient prophecy of the Sith'ari.

When Anakin destroyed Sidious, he also destroyed himself. He was technically still a Sith. Therefore, destroyed the Sith. I think that Luke's "New Jedi Order" would pave the way to beings who were both like the Jedi and the Sith. Many of you have said that people like Mace Windu knew that using some impulses of the dark side were useful. It's only human to be morally ambivalent by nature. Things in this world are not black and white but often have shades of gray. Though ambivelant, human beings can strive for what they consider the divine.

 

I think that Anakin knew what he was doing was wrong the whole time. In order to cover this up, he lies to himself, like you said. For example, "They're animals, and I slaughtered them like animals!" He knows it was wrong, but he's trying to make it right. There are so many bad things he has done by the time he's in the suit that he stops trying to rationalize his actions and just stops feeling (more machine than man).

Where did you find this information?

 

Wikipedia.org. Look at the Sith article.

 

/\/\/\ Thanks!