The fall of the Jedi, according to the second draft of "The Star Wars".

I've always been a fan of the idea that Palpatine convinced the Republic of Jedi treachery in some way - and that was the reason for their fall.

Here's an extract from the 'Annotated Screenplays', referring to the second draft of 'The Star Wars':

"But as the Republic spread throughout the galaxy, the Great Senate became corrupt and the Jedi warriors tried to purge it. They were denounced as traitors and executed: The Empire was born."

This could well pan out. In Episode III, the Jedi realise what is really happening with regard to the Clone Wars, and perhaps realise Palpatine's true identity. They plan to overthrow Palpatine and his corrupt Senators, but their attempted coup fails and Palpatine condemns them as traitors.


Here's another interesting bit from the second draft:

"During one of his lessons a young 'Padawan-Jedi' named Darklighter came to know the Bogan (the dark side). He joined Sith pirates, and together they became the Emperor's bodyguards. They hunted the remaining Jedi warriors; with each death, the Bogan grew stronger."

Replace Darklighter with Anakin, and modify the Sith pirates/bodyguards idea and you aren't far off Anakin's fall and the 'Jedi purge'.

I thought these extracts were worth sharing. As we know, Lucas likes to use old ideas whenever he can.

 

This is interesting.

I think the whole "Turn against the Jedi - they're the cause of your problems!" idea will definitely pan out. Just how, we'll have to watch and see.

But your ideas are interesting.

 

Definitely.

It makes sense. At the end of Episode II one of the Jedi has begun to suspect that Palpatine is not the good guy he appears to be. Theoretically, in Episode III, this person discovers proof, and the rest of the Jedi rise up against Palpatine. Once they're in open rebellion against the Chancellor, Palpatine is able to turn the clones against the Jedi and overwhelm them legally. Branded as traitors, the Jedi are hunted to virtual extinction. This is the Second Clone War. The first was clone and Jedi vs droids. The second is clones vs Jedi.

The question that remains is the exact circumstances of Anakin's turn. Does he simply submit to the dark side, at which point Palpatine takes advantage of it and makes him his apprentice? Or does Palpatine pursue Anakin as an apprentice? I know of nothing in Episode II in which Palpatine tempts Anakin, which makes me suspect the former, that he is simply there when Anakin turns and takes advantage of it.

It would be interesting if Anakin is simply frustrated with the Jedi and their way of doing things, and after encountering Tyranus in Episode II, makes inquiries into the Sith and their "religion," perhaps deciding that their way, the easier way, is more for him than the Jedi way. Perhaps HE approaches Sidious. Would be interesting if he went willingly. That old quote about Darklighter almost makes it sound like that's what happens. While Luke had to struggle with the dark side, Anakin openly embraced it.

 

Dehrian: "...the rest of the Jedi rise up against Palpatine. Once they're in open rebellion against the Chancellor, Palpatine is able to turn the clones against the Jedi and overwhelm them legally. Branded as traitors, the Jedi are hunted to virtual extinction. This is the Second Clone War. The first was clone and Jedi vs droids. The second is clones vs Jedi."

I like that a lot! Especially the 'second clone war' theory.

 

Excellent Dehrian - if the second (or later) Clone War(s) involve Clones vs. Jedi in the situation you mention, that would explain Ben's quote in ANH that goes something like "Of course, I was a Jedi, the same as your father" in response to Luke's "You fought in the Clone Wars?"

{taps fingers together} Excellent.... {tap, tap tap}

 

Also, the prologue to the ANH novel, it states something like, "through deception [blah blah blah]...Palpatine exterminated the jedi knights."

So far in the prequels, the storyline is going exactly the way that ANH novel prologue describes. How, Palpatine "cuased himself to be elected President of the Republic."..."with the help of the organs of commerce." (Trade Federation)

Obviously, Palpatine will exterminate the jedi using deception as his tool, like the novel claims.

 

i like the idea of palpatine using the clones "legaly" to hunt down the jedi, very cool dehrian!

 

I had never heard of this before, but it work beautifully with everything.

It's very interesting...

Good work, Green!

 

"I fought on the same side as your father in the first war, and againist him in the second. Ah, the good old Clone Wars." I like it.

Now I would like to go off on a bit of a tangent.

"But as the Republic spread throughout the galaxy ..."

Could we see the Republic under go an agressive expansion under Palpatine's leadership, adding planets like Tatooine to its membership. During the early 19th century rapid expansion of the American west the political powers in Washington formulated their policies, as to territories reaching Statehood status, State boundaries, and territory wrested away from Mexico upon gaining a political advantage over their advesaries.

"... the Great Senate became corrupt ..."

Palpatine, using the power of the Chancellorship and his evil alter ego, manipulates the influx of new blood to the Senate into his fold. Already having the Senate eating out of his hand for saving the Republic from Dooku, he now has enough Senators in his pocket to declare himself Emperor.

"... and the Jedi warriors tried to purge it."

The Jedi realize that Dooku and his forces are just an elaborate diversion to affect changes in the Senate favorable to the Sith. But what has the war done to change the Senate? The rise of Palpatine's image into a hero and the infussion of outer rim systems into the Republic. They put two and two together. Palpatine is the Sith Master and the outer rim systems are under his control, along with whatever ones he controlled before. He has too much political power and the only way they can rid the Republic of him is to openly revolt.

 

it is a good theory greenie, but just one thing. jedi arent mutinous. they preach use of the force for defence, not attack. it isnt in their nature to be so confronting and aggressive.

 

about second clone war idea:

that fits perfectly with lucas' evolution of war parralel. 'The Great Clone War'->'The Great War', later called World War I; 'The Second Clone war'->'World War II'. And it fits technologically and historically; World War I was nasty because of new technology mixed with old strategies;'new technology'=clones. and in World War II, there was Hitler's holocaust; in The Second Clone War, theres palpatine's holocaust of the Jedi. Maybe its like it was in WWII, where the public doesnt even know the extent of the atrocities at the time...


and on a different note, i quote Obi-Wan in ESB(to Luke on dagobah) "I don't want to lose you to the emperor like I(we?) lost Vader."

and whiel im talking about ESB quotes, heres one from yoda that relates to episode 2 strongly: "Excitement and adventure a Jedi crave not." *cough* Anakin *cough*

 

Dagsy, the Jedi ARE by nature reactive, not proactive. Still, as we saw with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in TPM, they can be moved into an offensive posture if it's in defense of something they believe in. If they feel that Palpatine represented a signifigant threat to the Republic and the Force, they could be moved to confront him, opening themselves up to retaliation.

They would likely try to confront him privately, but Palpatine would maneuver things so that it happened publicly. Were it known to the Senate that Tyranus was a former Jedi (and they would likely be aware of this by the beginning of Episode III), then this could be the nail in the coffin of the Jedi. A former Jedi had turned to the dark side, and now the Jedi themselves are attempting to take down the Chancellor! The Senate, alarmed and in Palpatine's pocket, denounce the Jedi and give the thumbs up to using the clone army against them.

Let the Second Clone War begin...

 

i could see palpatine using the sido-dyas guise to add to the jedi appearance of rebelion against the chancelor.

 

Germany, post WWI

Hitler(=palpatine)
Jews(=Jedi)

After WW I the Jews had a lot of power in germany (they had a lot of money) There were alot of problems (economy) (defeat) and so one man, eventually, claimed it were the Jews who were responsible for the problems in Germany.

Through manipulation, fear, agression, hate people started to believe this (or were affraid to think something else)

"so in the end they had to be wiped out in order to save the future of Germany!"

Same story different setting:

Rome

Nero(palpatine)
Cristians(=Jedi)

Troubles in the empire. Nero seeks scapegoat->cristians(minority)

It's clear Lucas is teaching us elementary facts of life. Maybe you and i know all about the horror which happend in the past. Fact is al ot of people hardly know anything about it at all! This way they get a change to see things in a different perspective and maybe they start thinking about it and will get interrested in this. It's the same with the religion aspect of the movies. Many people are faithless these days. Through the force people will have a change to get in touch whith it, maybe even starting thinking about this ( your soul, balance etc.)

It's very easy in today's life of haste to forget such important matters. Now you have these Starwars movies. They are like a mirror, they show what's life is about, the importance of friendship etc. If you don't respect these values youre gonna fall!

Amen


(this is why i love em, all of them!)

 

The Jedi have already acted against the Republic. TPM opens with the fall of the Jedi ensured by their illegal interference with the Trade Federation's legal blockade -which is what emboldens the TF to host Vallorum?s ambassadors in the first place. Palpatine / Sideous wanted Jedi involvement to escalate, and ensures it by ordering them killed at the beginning; if they die, more will show up to oppose the TF openly; if they survive they will witness an invasion. Either way, Maul will still be brought in because Palpatine knows that the TF will not be able to manage the increasing Jedi interference. Thus, Palpatine has clearly set a trap in which the Jedi must continue acting illegally because they make the first mistake of obeying Vallorum instead of waiting for the Senate. As Palpatine has planned, the longer the Senate deliberates, the more the Jedi must act autonomously in their fight against the Sith-led TF. It is difficult for me to envision a giant court scene where the Jedi are officially named as fomenters of the Clone War, but if Lucas needs such a scene to drive home the point, he has seeded TPM with more than enough for it.

The Jedi don't need to turn on the Republic; they already have.

See the Seperatist thread for more.

 

Well Newt, your theory is well thought out, but it really hinges on whether or not Palpatine knew that Valorum had dispatched Jedi to Naboo.

On one hand, it seems logical that even though Valorum is "secretly dispatching" the jedi, he would have at least told the Naboo senator. But on the other hand, Sidious seems genuinely surprised (and annoyed) when he finds out the jedi are there: "The Chancellor should never have brought them into this. Kill them immediately."

Personally, I believe the latter because I doubt Sidious would risk involving the jedi so early in his grand scheme. Things are still too delicate at this point.

But there is no doubt that tarnishing the Jedi is indeed part of his eventual plan. There are plenty of hints in the OT that the jedi and all force-users are looked upon in a less-than-favorable light: "Hokey religions...", "Sorceror's ways...", "Crazy old wizard..."

 

Twisted Sithster:

When Sideous says: "The Chancellor should never have brought them into this. Kill them immediately."

He is merely ensuring that Jedi involvement will escalate. His tone of voice disguises the fact that the Nemoidens are being used to ignite the spark that detonates the Clone Wars of E2 and 3. The TF and the Jedi are bieng set up to collide in a way that will eventually eliminate the Jedi and bring Palpatine into absolute power. See the "Jedi threat" and "Seperatists" threads for MUCH more on this

 

Palpatine just has to be Sidious for all this to work out.

Remember that Amidala is probably in constant communications with Palpatine since the begining of the blockade (it lasts for a month by the time of TPM, according to the novel).

She is aware that ambassadors have been sent to command that the TF reach a settlement. Palpatine told her, obviously. It makes a lot of sense that the Chancellor would discuss a bold diplomatic move with the representative of the world he's trying to help. He could not afford the risk of having Palpatine opposed the move for any reason and expose it in the Senate.

There are many many ways Palpatine could have influenced Valorum to send the Jedi. Face-to-Face, through convincing Amidala to ask for them, through pretending Amidala asked for them, through a mole advisor in the Chancellor's office that suggest the move to the chancellor, etc.

The last one is quite likely, go read the biography of Valorum's assistant on the official site, I think her involvement will be revealed in the EU book "Cloak of Deception" that will cover the political machinations of Palpatine before the Naboo Crisis. Hopefully this book will be written from a set of Lucas' notes on the backstory of TPM. I'm quite sure it will follow his ideas in any case - there's no point in publishing a book like that, related to the central plot of TPM, only to contradict it a year later in episode II.

 

Well, Dom and Newt, your discussions in the other threads are exceptional and I now see things much more clearly. (I had earlier ignored the Separatist thread because it starts rather weakly with a discussion on whether the PT Separatists become the OT Rebel Alliance). This is FINALLY a sensible explanation for the treaty subplot, and for why Palp wasn't upset about the Queen's escape from Naboo.

But why does he send Maul to Tattoine? If he's trying to get the Jedi panicked about Sith involvement, why not have Maul confront her on Naboo or Coruscant? Why bother tracing the ship to Tattoine?

Also, why does Palpatine seem panicked when the Queen states her intention to return to Naboo? According to your theory, he can only gain by having the Queen return to battle the TF along with her Jedi protectors.


This really casts Qui-Gon's words in a painfully ironic light: "I can only protect you. I can't fight a war for you." - but he has already started the war.

 

<<They would likely try to confront him privately, but Palpatine would maneuver things so that it happened publicly. Were it known to the Senate that Tyranus was a former Jedi (and they would likely be aware of this by the beginning of Episode III), then this could be the nail in the coffin of the Jedi. A former Jedi had turned to the dark side, and now the Jedi themselves are attempting to take down the Chancellor! The Senate, alarmed and in Palpatine's pocket, denounce the Jedi and give the thumbs up to using the clone army against them. >>

I agree with green and dehrian that this general scenario is the likely path towards Palpatine's rise and the Jedi purge simultaneously, which is how both must happen.

It's paramount to Palpatine's grasp for TOTAL power that he always appear as the defender, not the agressor (hence his in-Sidious deception). Were he to brazenly declare himself prime Emperor of a republic without support, his naked ambition would be far too obvious. He needs a scapegoat, an internal threat which will 'destabilize' the galaxy if left unchecked by his 'benevolent rule', and the Jedi are being served up as the problem. Naturally as things get 'worse', he can assume more power and control via the military to 'safeguard' the Republic, soon his Empire. His only trick is how to manufacture this public change in perception of the Jedi: it will be no small trick since the Jedi have acted as guardians of peace and justice for quite a long run. Ensnaring them in political upheaval seems the most likely tool at his disposal, given his prowess for Machiavellian manipulation.

One question I have, though, in light of Dehrian's quote above: exactly how will Palpatine blame 'dark Jedi' for trying to usurp his power in the Senate, AND ensnare Anakin as his right hand man by doing the exact same thing (i.e. recruit a former, fallen Jedi as his enforcer to wipe out the Jedi)? There will be a point where he cannot keep this move with Anakin a secret... I'm curious to hear how you think Palp will handle this situation, since given your excellent scenario, he will have to deal with this apparent contradiction in his motives and actions?

 

"why not have Maul confront her on Naboo"

He needs to be sure that the Jedi have bitten the bait first, that is that they either witnessed the invasion and survived or that Valorum sends other Jedi to investigate. Beside, sending Maul too soon may have made the TF panic and stop the invasion plan. He waited for the confirmation that the Queen had escaped. He also had his reason to impose Maul's on them : they have failed.

"or Coruscant"

It had to be linked clearly to the Trade Federation. To confirm their suspicions after Tatooine he sent him on Naboo again. Think of it, he had not much to do at this point since Palpatine's plan had already worked. He just gave the confirmation of the Sith' involvement and made sure the events would degenerate a bit more. Useful if you want to cast the TF in a dark light afterward.

"why does Palpatine seem panicked when the Queen states her intention to return to Naboo?"

He stays in his "Good Palpatine" character that care for his Queen, that's all. Notice his half-smile at the end. She just did what he wanted the most : make the Naboo crisis degenerate even more. Had he been lucky, she would have become a martyr of the TF. Either way he wins.

"he can only gain by having the Queen return to battle the TF along with her Jedi protectors."

He won at the moment the invasion started. Everything else was a bonus for him. The sympathy for Naboo was high after that and if the Queen didn't show up, he could simply kill Valorum to get his election. The principal suspect would be the Trade Federation. Sidious would have argue anyway that they should kill Valorum and get the guy from Malastare elected before presenting the treaty, because Valorum would try to oppose it to help his ally Palpatine who pretends that the treaty was signed under threat. He could say that Valorum will send other Jedi to get Amidala as a witness. If they kill her, they're done - if they don't they're done too. The only solution is to have a chancellor more attuned to their interest : as Lucas showed us, their ally is the guy from Malastare who second the commission proposal and is nominated for Chancellor.

 

StarTours, I don't think he needs to blame the Jedi per se. As long as he maneuvers things so that they confront him publicly, he can denounce them. With Tyranus known as a former Jedi gone bad, all that would be required to further the impression that the Jedi could not be trusted and had too much unchecked power would be for them to openly challenge the Chancellor. Once that's done, he can turn the clones lose on them legally, and with the Senate's backing.

As for Anakin, given GCC's quote about Darklighter, I suspect that Palpatine does not so much "turn" Anakin as that he simply ensares Anakin as his apprentice when Anakin turns. I don't think Palpatine pursues Anakin as an apprentice as everyone supposes. I've heard of nothing that suggests he does so in Episode II.

That said, I think now that Anakin pursues the dark side himself. He becomes frustrated with the Jedi code and his own inability to master the Force due to his anger and impatience, which cloud his control. After encountering Tyranus, he pursues the dark side, seeing it as the quick and easy path, which seduces him. When he kills Tyranus, it is the nail in his coffin, and Palpatine simply tells him, "Come with me, and I will complete your training. Ours is the way of the future." Anakin embraces this and turns to the dark side.

This would require Anakin to be aware that Palpatine is a bad guy, yes, but if the Jedi have moved against him then it's because they already KNOW that he is a bad guy.

If you're asking how can Palpatine justify taking another Jedi as his right hand man since they're hunting down Jedi? - he can tell the Senate that Anakin has been working for him from within the Jedi as an informer. He sets up Anakin as the one Jedi who can be trusted to root out this menace, and sends him off to lead the clones against the Jedi.

 

And I think that Maul was only another pawn to Sidious that he was willing to sacrafice in TPM. Everything that happened in TPM would have happened regardless if Maul was involved or not. By throwing his apprentice to two Jedi (one who could be on the council) was clearly a move to let the Jedi Council know that The Sith were still around (perhaps to coax Dooku out?). Even more so to let the Jedi know that the Sith Master was still alive.

"At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi." Why reveal yourselves then, Maul? Because Sidious is about to screw you over, that's why.

 

As Dehrian said, it makes the most sense for the major war in E3 to be Jedi vs. clones (stormtroopers).

At the end of E2 after thousands of clones have been deployed throughout the galaxy, these clones probably occupy many planets. They will claim to be there for the "protection" of the people, but actually be exploiting the citizens.

Alderaan will probably be one of these occupied planets. Bail Organa will approach the Jedi, asking them for help. Obi-Wan will lead the insurrection against the stormtroopers on Alderaan. This could create tension amongst the Jedi ranks. Obi-Wan will try to convince the Jedi that Palpatine and his stormtrooper army will be the downfall of the galaxy. While Anakin will claim that Palpatine knows what's best for the galaxy, restoring it to order. Possibly this is when the two first split. Anakin leads the stormtrooper army while Obi-Wan leads the Jedi in a major war on Alderaan.

Now, how Dooku and the separatists will specifically fit into E3, I don't know. Any ideas?

 

Dom: I'm not quite with you yet.

"He needs to be sure that the Jedi have bitten the bait first, that is that they either witnessed the invasion and survived or that Valorum sends other Jedi to investigate."

Having Maul walking the Queen and her entourage down the streets of Naboo instead of a bunch of battle droids would've accomplished the same task, plus it would have saved the airfare to Tattoine, plus it would've kept the Queen on Naboo to sign the treaty.


"Beside, sending Maul too soon may have made the TF panic and stop the invasion plan."

I'd say they were pretty much fully committed at that point anyway.


"It had to be linked clearly to the Trade Federation. To confirm their suspicions after Tatooine he sent him on Naboo again."

It would have been clearer still if Maul was on Naboo to begin with.


On everything else, I absolutely agree with you.


Snoopy: Maul was definately a pawn, but Sidious had no intention of sacrificing him on Naboo. The novelisation talks about how surprised Sidious is that Oi-Wan destroyed Maul.