The fate of fanfilms - a prediction

Discussion in 'Fan Films, Fan Audio & SciFi 3D' started by Michelangelo, Jun 18, 2001.

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  1. Thayne_Correlles Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2000
    star 2
    Okay, Thou shalt not invoke the fury of the Overseer of Keanu. God Damnit he can act... He's very subtle and okay has done a few ropey performances.. but people think that because in reel life he seems so much like the Characters he plays. It's called Typecasting and he is the BIGGEST sufferor of it.. [Dracula not included, although part of it he was good.] I've seen him do Shakespeare and he was very good.

    As for TPM, lay off it okay. I've been watching The Holy Trilogy since I was Four, and everytime I watch it it reminds me of why I liked it as a Kid, Adventure, Excitment.. Forget the Bad acting and Cheesy Diolouge... and we all hate to admit it but it is there. and it's there in TPM, but would it be Star Wars without it? And as for Jar-Jar, People Hate the Ewoks, but the Kids love em' he didn't annoy me, heck I warmed to him, He's not that bad, Luke was twice as annoying in IV. People loved to pick flaws with TPM BECAUSE it's Star Wars, and people couldn't let it get away after all that hype... True, Anakin was annoying when he was screaming "WIZARD!" and "WOOPIE" but that's what kind of kid he was... stick some Rittalin in him and he'd be fine. I see no flaws in TPM that weren't there in Star Wars, but like a Girlfriend, they have flaws but you love em anyway.. and would they be the same without the flaws. And everytime I see that Storm Trooper run into the door frame, or here the Jawa's say 'Here comes the windowclean man' Or See Luke's head spring into shot in the Carbonite Chamber Or Han Grab Lea's Breast [outside the power generator on Endor :D] or Luke Whine thru half his lines, Or Han scream, 'You could use a good kiss!' Everytime I see them I remember WHY I love Star Wars... and why I'm Single... Apparently. You Gotta love the Saga.

    Thayne 'Gonna get some Sleep' Correlles
  2. Semaj Ovured Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2000
    star 4
    Perhaps a petition is in order. Something along the order of ...

    We, the undersigned fanfilmmakers, wish to go on record that we are against such projects as "The Phantom Edit." Fanfilms are an homage to the creator of the original stories, characters, and situations of such films as Star Wars, but to re-edit one's original work constitutes a violation of creative rights. We thereby denounce this activity and do affix our names to this petition."

    Set it up as a website that Fan Filmmakers can go to and sign. Then get word to LFL and see if that doesn't quell the fear.
  3. Darth Parilis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 1999
    star 1
    To all you that complains over TPM, you are forgetting something.

    George Lucas makes this movies for himself. He is just happy that other people to like his films.

    And I must say that Star wars isn't only a movie serie. It is a masterpeice.

    I say Go Lucas!

    (This maybe was a little of the subject but whatever).
  4. Semaj Ovured Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2000
    star 4
    Your passion for your position undermines your accuracy, Michaelangelo. Eps 4-6 and Apocalypse now were re-edited by the copyright holders, the creators, and the owners of the film property. This was done by someone on the street. It dramatically alters the storyline, the characters, and essentially the vision that Lucas has. And to say that the individual has a right to because they think it sucks is no excuse. What's to stop someone from re-editing Citizen Caine because they think it's slow or they don't like it that Caine doesn't win in the end? What's to stop Fox from saying they can re-edit Indiana Jones even though Paramount did it?

    The answer ... CREATIVE RIGHTS. EVERY filmmaker has it. You don't agree, then I'll take a look at your film and see how much "better" I can make it. I bet you'd be just as offended.

    And don't think for one minute that looking through rose colored glasses will prevent LFL from clamping down on this whole magilla. This is exactly the kind of thing that can endanger the fan film community.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, the fan film universe exists at Lucas' (and others) sufference. They can send everyone Cease and Desist letters anytime. And TFN would shut down the film section in a heartbeat because they know it's folly to mess with the 800 pound gorilla.

    Lucas doesn't have to sue you. He only needs to make you stop.

    We would well to publicly denounce this effort. I know I do.
  5. Darth_Gehenna Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2001
    star 3
    Well I for one think A New Hope is REALLY goofy, but that's just me :D
  6. sjsuamidala Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2001
    star 3
    Make a petition, but I think the "fear" that you're talking about is a fear created by the fan film community. There has been no reaction from LFL that hints at all about shutting down fan films.

    The stance has not changed, and won't change.

    Besides, would you not have made Rogue if TFN didn't exist? You still would have made it, I would imagine, because you made it for your own benefit. So you still would make it.

    Andrew
  7. DarkATX Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2000
    star 4
    Sjsuamidala - O.K. I've seen Keanu act in an older tiny unknown movie where he played a son with serious emotional problems...he was very animated and quite unlike the Mr.Reeves we see today. He reminds me of a Jeff Goldblum of sorts (lacks some of the offbeat charm) but very subtle in his acting :)

    TPM was the first part of a Vader/Anikin trilogy. How far back does one go into telling a rich and full story about a person who would reach great heights only to fall? I'm pretty sure George has put more thought into telling this story than we can appreciate and when the other 2 sequels are released we might have a new found appreciation for TPM and all its Jar Jar Binks goodness. :D

    As for the Phantom Edit...it ain't even worth the worry. I find a title like Sex, Drugs and Natalie Portman more scary than the Phantom Edit. Now if this site was dedicated solely into hosting off-colour, adult, politcally incorrect and deviant Star Wars fanfilms then I could see where GL and his gang would come a knockin'...
    ;)
  8. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    I'll chime in with my two stances-

    While I'm very intrigued by the Phantom Edit (and I admit I'd like to take a look at it out of curiosity), to allow it to be distributed and get such wide press as it has is very wrong, as it is a public insult to Lucas's work. However, I'm not opposed to it's existence, if someone wants to do it for fun for their own private entertainment and do a good job at it at that, they should have the right to do it. But to allow distribution is very wrong and that falls on the creators responsibility.
    For example- I have every intention to, in the future, create my own personal versions of all 4 star wars films. Not for my own particular enjoyment, but rather for my children's enjoyment when I have my own eventually. I'd like to be able to show them a version of Star Wars that doesn't have Greedo firing first but that also has the enhanced special effects in the space battles from the special edition. Lucas has made mistakes here and there, in my own opinion, and one day, when my kids first expierence that galaxy far, far away, well, I want them to have the best possible expierence I can give them, to inspire their dreams with the fantastic world Lucas has created, so from there they might be interested in seeing how these movies have evolved over the years and enjoy the original versions, the special edition versions, and my own person edition versions. Will I show my version to others such as friends and family? Yes. Will I allow copies to be made and distributed like bootlegs? Absolutely not. It's just not ethical to me. The version I make will be for me, my family and my friends. I won't make copies for them, but I will let them enjoy them.
  9. sjsuamidala Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2001
    star 3
    But it took over a year for TPE to make it to the public mainstream.

    If one person handed it to one other person once a month, it'd have to go through over 12 people before it someone "distributed" it.

    The creators are not responsible for the distribution of it because THEY didn't distribute it. they gave it to family and friends.

    They probably had a brother who lives far away so they sent it to him. His kid copied it for his friend and off it goes.

    Not the fault of the creators.

    Andrew
  10. Michelangelo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2000
    star 1
    <<The creators are not responsible for the distribution of it because THEY didn't distribute it.>>

    sjsuamidala, thats like saying the guy you grows marajuana isn't legally responsible because he wasn't the one dealing the drugs, just growing it. It doesn't matter if they originally made it just for personal use (which I don't know if I buy anyway. Do you know them, Andrew?) its out and they created it, making them, as well as the distributers, liable

    <<Will I show my version to others such as friends and family? Yes. Will I allow copies to be made and distributed like bootlegs? Absolutely not. It's just not ethical to me.>>

    The2ndQuest, your right I don't think LFL will go after anyone for their own personal use of the movie, just like they don't go after people for copyright infringement when they record something off the radio. But just be careful because if what sjsuamidala is saying is true, then even if you try to keep it private it can still get out and you would be legally responsible.

    Semaj Ovured, I think you need to reread my original post because you just didn't miss my point, you thought I was saying the exact opposite

    And to those who think that this isn't that big of a deal...check out the editiorial on the frontpage

    http://www.theforce.net/theater/filmsnews.html#430

    "give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile"
  11. Nik Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2000
    star 3
    <<thats like saying the guy you grows marajuana isn't legally responsible because he wasn't the one dealing the drugs>>

    Wow! I can't believe you just compared a re-edit to an addictive substance. The reason that weed is illegal, is because of the social problems associated to it, and what it does to young people.

    EP1 is by far, not harmful to your health. Nore does editing in secret on your computer make you a drug lord.
  12. Thayne_Correlles Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2000
    star 2
    Lets not get into a Drug Conversation... Winners Don't do Drugs... although why they screen marathon runners for pot, Weed the drug that makes you come last in a race of 500 people, all dead.

    Thayne
  13. sjsuamidala Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2001
    star 3
    You said let's not get into a conversation about drugs - so stop talking about them!!! :)

    "sjsuamidala, thats like saying the guy you grows marajuana isn't legally responsible because he wasn't the one dealing the drugs, just growing it. It doesn't matter if they originally made it just for personal use (which I don't know if I buy anyway. Do you know them, Andrew?) its out and they created it, making them, as well as the distributers, liable."

    Ok, so somewhere under the surface of the streets tehre is a black market funneling a dollar here and a dollar there from these conventions. The money from the sales of this Phantom Edit goes directly to the creators! That's it! they are so smart.

    No, that's not it. The guy who makes marijuana either uses it, gives it to friends who use it (after they use it it's gone) or sells it to dealers. if he sells it to dealers, then he's in the wrong. It's completely different, for many, many reasons.

    But, if what Michaelangelo says is true, then we should probably start wondering if Duality and Rogue creators should start getting lawyers. Because they created something that is now being sold illigally. I bet Mark and Dave are making a fortune off of this - that's hwy they let TFN users download it for free!

    Oh - then shouldn't TFN be illigal too? No. The distibuter of it for free is not in the wrong here. The peole who sell Duality and Rogoue and other Fan Films are.

    Crew of two and others invovled do not condone the selling, so they are in the clear. It's as if you can blame Paramount for the illegal copies of paramount movies goign around. Or you can blame Fox because of the illigal copies of teh Fox movies goign around.

    It's silly.

    As for that editorial, it said nothing new to me. I would however like to know who wrote it - I think that isnce an editorial is by default an opinion issue, it is very important tthat we know who wrote it and what their background is.

    I agree with the editorial. Don't remake starwars. But Duality was fine, so was Rogue. And so was Legacy of the Jedi and countless other movies. So don't worry your pants about it.

    Andrew

    Oh - I don't know the guys. But, I do know that in one of the reviews it's stated that they just did it for their own benefit.

    Andrew
  14. Azeem TFN Staff, Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 1999
    star 4
    I don't know which Editorial you are referring but I wrote the one from today.

    The NY guys said they did it for themselves. The LA version is causing the stir with LFL.
  15. andakin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2000
    star 4
    Titanic WAS edited in several locations for content. When most of these stopped, the threats of lawsuits did too. They claimed creative rights were being infringed. However, to my knowledge, they brought NO LEGAL AUTHORITY against the ones who edited pre-purchased tapes. There is a thriving business close to me called CleanFlix- you give them your video tape, and they have a list of videos that they can edit using a digital system. They edit out content with volume drops and tape cuts. Although the cuts can sometimes be very rough, it is their own property that they're working with, and opens up some films to audiences that would otherwise never view them.
    I don't believe that distributing copies of The Phantom Edit was right. However, if they had already purchased a copy of The Phantom Menace, they were well within their current legal rights to edit the content. I believe that lucasfilm handled the situation very provessionally. I think there would have been less opposition if they had handled it in a way similar to CleanFlix. Still, I would be very insulted if someone was to re-edit my film just because they thought parts were "Boring" or "Annoying"
  16. sjsuamidala Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2001
    star 3
    Yeah the NY guys did it for fun. So there's no harm there.

    Andrew
  17. DarthZome Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 4
    First of all, The Phantom Menace did anything but suck, although it could have used a few enhancements.

    Second, the problem with The Phantom Edit is that you now incorportate actual movie footage into your film, and there's no telling where to draw the line.

    What if you took out one shot in TPM and then claimed you could distribute it however you want because hey, it's not EXACTLY like the film, and therefore is a fan film.
  18. Michelangelo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2000
    star 1
    <<Wow! I can't believe you just compared a re-edit to an addictive substance. The reason that weed is illegal, is because of the social problems associated to it, and what it does to young people.>>

    It is what we call, a comparison, my friends. It is used commonly in debates so that a new perspective can be seen on an issue. It is of course the nature of a 'comparison' to hold several commonalities btwn two things, this is what makes a comparison useful. However it is also the nature of a comparison to be very disimilar from each other. By comparing the manufacturing of drugs to copyright infringment, I am simply showing that these two things that are illegal. Just as someone who grows illegal substances is doing something against the law, so is someone who creates somthing that infringes on a copyright. Any other parallels that could be drawn from this such as "this makes no sense, you don't 'grow' fanfilms you shoot them on a camera" or "does he mean fanfilms are chemically addictive" are misguided

    <<But, if what Michaelangelo says is true, then we should probably start wondering if Duality and Rogue creators should start getting lawyers...I bet Mark and Dave are making a fortune off of this.>>

    guess what, they did create something legal, but because of an unwriten agreement between fanfilmmakers and LFL, (1. we do not DIRECTLY (this is a key word and I think it bares repeating) DIRECTLY profit from our films and 2. they are in good taste.) we are not prosectuted or shut down.

    <<Oh - then shouldn't TFN be illigal too? No. The distibuter of it for free is not in the wrong here. The peole who sell Duality and Rogoue and other Fan Films are.>>

    if you want to be technical, what TFN is doing is illegal, they are distributing copyrighted material, however like I said above they follow the unwriten rules established by LFL, so they are not shut down. Whether you selling it or giving it away its illegal, thats why those people distributing copies of TPE at Mann's Chinese theater got in trouble

    <<However, if they had already purchased a copy of The Phantom Menace, they were well within their current legal rights to edit the content.>>

    Now I agree with you that those who do alter movie in private, purely for personal use, more than likely won't have to worry about legal action. But if you buy a copy of TPM, it is a misconception to assume that you 'own' the movie. you don't. when you buy a copy of a movie you are simply purchasing the right to watch in the private sector.

    If you want to go as far as those people at CleanFlix (I've never heard of this before so i'm not sure of the legality) you better be sure it doesn't get out your hands because if it ends up getting distributed you would be in trouble. Whether it was for fun or not, you are using images and ideas that are not your own and you will be held liable

    <<The guy who makes marijuana either uses it, gives it to friends who use it (after they use it it's gone) or sells it to dealers.>>

    Lets not be naive.

    <<if he sells it to dealers, then he's in the wrong>>

    He's only wrong if he sells it to dealers? I'd like to hear that argued infront of a judge.

    It just feels to me that people have forgoten that it is our privlege, not our right, to make fanfilms. Because of this people have started to push the envolope of what will be tolerated and I want people to be aware of that. Thats why I started this thread


  19. Michelangelo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2000
    star 1
    <<guess what, they did create something legal, but because of an unwriten agreement between fanfilmmakers and LFL...>>

    I meant illegal...sorry if that didn't make any sense
  20. PrairieDragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 1
    In a way, this has all been healthy for fan films as a whole, and was bound to happen sooner or later.

    Up until now, the boundry has always been fuzzy. But we have finally heard from officials at Lucasfilm about what they consider going too far. That's a valuable piece of information and one that wasn't going to get answered until someone pushed.

    I applaud all the attention the topic has been getting, because it spreads the word and educates the fan filmmaker as to what is unacceptable behavior in their backyard.
  21. sjsuamidala Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2001
    star 3
    "It is what we call, a comparison, my friends. It is used commonly in debates so that a new perspective can be seen on an issue. It is of course the nature of a 'comparison' to hold several commonalities btwn two things, this is what makes a comparison useful."

    Yeah, but an analogy is supposed to make sense.

    You can't compare apples and oranges.

    Let's say for a moment that you have a son. You buy a movie and he let's his friend borrow it. His friend likes the movie, and copies it for their own viewing pleasure. Then the friends older brother goes out and makes mass copies. These copies end up geting sold. Who is in the wrong?

    In your analogy, you would be in the wrong and liable for all damages.

    There is no evidence that the NY version (and I believe the LA version, but I' mnot sure about that) was made in order to make money. It was made 14 months ago for personal pleasure. It mushroomed recently, probably by some person 8 times removed from the creators.

    Ooops. But that's not the creators fault.

    I'm not saying that TPE is legal - it is not. But I am saying that just becaues some people will get in trouble for blatently selling TPE, we as fan film makers will not.

    That "unwritten agreement" (which must not exist if it's unwritten - it must only exist in our minds) is untouched. LFL didn't say, "Duality is illegal." They said, "TPE is illegal."

    Big whoop? Who cares? If a year ago someone asked the quesiton on whether or not a reedit of TPM would be illegal, we all would have said, "Yes, it would be against the law."

    But Duality is to growing marijuana in your backyard adn smoking it yourself as TPE is to the Columbia Drug Cartel.

    That's an analogy that makes sense.

    Andrew
  22. Michelangelo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2000
    star 1
    This is almost getting to a point where we should just say we agree to disagree but I'm willing to give it one more stab.

    First of all let me clear up some definitions, like the word illegal. When I said "[Mark and Dave] did create something illegal" what I mean is that if LFL decided they felt fanfilms weren't good for business or whatever, it would be in their legal right, because they used copyrighted music, terms and ideas, to shut down all websites that hosted that film (TFN and ifilm), and probably would have the right to make them take down all content of duality from their crewoftwo.com. Thats what what makes it illegal. However because of this 'unwriten agreement' (and the reason its unwriten is that i doubt the crew of two, TFN or anyother fanfilm maker signed any contracts with Lucas film confirming these rules. Thats why they are unwritten, it doesn't mean they don't exist....come on) they have yet to do that.

    <<Let's say for a moment that you have a son. You buy a movie and he let's his friend borrow it. His friend likes the movie, and copies it for their own viewing pleasure. Then the friends older brother goes out and makes mass copies. These copies end up geting sold. Who is in the wrong?>>

    I don't think this is an acurate analogy of what i'm argueing and heres why.

    <<you buy a movie>> this means that i have bought the right privately view and use the movie. It doesn't not mean I own the intellectual property of the movie

    <<he let's his friend borrow it.>> this would fall under private use of the movie

    <<His friend likes the movie, and copies it for their own viewing pleasure.>> this is were the copyright infraction takes place. If you read the FBI warning it says that ANY unautherized reproduction is strictly prohibited. what my son's friend did was unautherized. However I would also argue that this kind of infraction occurs quite often, then why don't companies go after this? because it would be inpractical and very expensive and almost imposible do go after everyone who did this, and since it is still on a small scale it doesn't do that much harm. but make no mistake it is an illegal action.

    <<Then the friends older brother goes out and makes mass copies. These copies end up geting sold. >> This is also an infraction but on a much larger scale so it is more likely to attract the attention of the autorities.

    <<Who is in the wrong?>>obviously those who sold the copies, the older brother for making alot of them, and to a lesser extent my son's friend for making the first copy. but not me. I did not break the law by buying the movie, my son's friend broke the law.


    <<There is no evidence that the NY version (and I believe the LA version, but I' mnot sure about that) was made in order to make money. It was made 14 months ago for personal pleasure. It mushroomed recently, probably by some person 8 times removed from the creators.>>

    it doesn't matter if they didn't make it to make money. that is irrevalant. Those people at the mann's chinese theater got in trouble for GIVING away copies, they weren't selling them.

    if the NY version was made for personal use, fine. They should have kept it to themselves since you said yourself "I'm not saying that TPE is legal - it is not." It is jsut as much a crime to create something that infringes on copyrights as it is to distribute it, whether they are giving it away or selling it.

    This has gotten kind of off topic I think so this is the last i'm going to say about it. Maybe we just fundamentally disagree on the boundries of the law in this case.

    Eric

  23. sovknight Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 1
    I just thought I'd go and dig up an extremely old thread and bump it up for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

    SK
  24. DorkmanScott Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    I'd like to take the respond pointlessly to the last comment in this thread:

    Now that Duality has an original score, the only thing they could get in trouble for is the sounds of the lightsabers, really, and even there they gave full credit to Ben Burtt. It's a tricky line to walk.

    I'm wondering when we'll reach the plateau of the fan film that threatens LFL and ILM so much that, far from ordering it taken down (since given the free distribution they actually have no legal discourse to do so), they just make it official.

    Hey, it could happen.

    M. Scott
  25. citizen-tom Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    id like to here more opinions on this extremely old thread
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