Saga The 'Feel the Love for Your Unloved Film(s)' Thread

RotJ:

- The Emperor's arrival;
- Banthas roaming the Dune Sea;
- Yoda's death and Ben's conversation with Luke;
- Every scene between Sidious, Vader and Luke;
- Battle over Endor;
- The duel between Vader and Luke;
- Galactic celebration;
- The soundtrack in general, but particularly The Dark Side Beckons;

 

Cool thread.

It's "Attack of the Clones" for me-


1. Coruscant at night. An image that sticks with me when I'm trying to picture the film.

2. Double meanings in dialogue...
- "I will not let this Republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two." ie. united as an Empire.
- I'd much rather dream about Padme" is ironic foreshadowing of ROTS.
- "Patience. Use the force.Think." inverts Qui-Gon's training (and OT Yoda's/Obi-Wan's training of Luke) "Feel, don't think. Trust your instincts." "Stretch out with your feelings!" If it isn't coincidence perhaps some subliminal re-enforcing that Obi-Wan was the wrong mentor for Anakin.
- Also Obi-Wan's "This weapon is your life!" inverts Yoda's "Your weapons. You will not need them."
- "Why do I get the feeling you're going to be the death of me?" / "Not again. Obi-Wan is going to kill me."
- Padme: "Who's gonna make them. You?" Anakin: "Of course not me." Can seem like playful banter (particularly if you haven't seeen the OT yet), but Ironic as we all know he becomes Vader, the Empire's most reknowned enforcer.

3. Anakin and Padme being brought into the Geonosis arena to be "executed". The music and the metaphorical foreshadowing of their eventual demise is moving.

4. Anakin and Obi-Wan both losing to Dooku with the same blue saber.

5. Anakin holding Padme's hand with his robotic hand at their wedding.

 

I know the thread is not for heavy discussion, but...

I don't think there's a direct contradiction in teachings. In that instance, Obi-Wan was proven right. It's not about one or the other, but what's right for a certain situation/person.

 

I'd say it's a matter of discernment and seeking of balance.

 

This is actually tougher for me to do than I originally thought. I could list the things I liked about them, but it's most of it, in most cases. I thought about listing the one or two things I didn't like, but was afraid it would be misread as my insulting a movie, which wouldn't have been the case, actually.

I guess the best I can do is say that there are things I don't like about each movie, but enough that I do like that I am able to enjoy myself enough to sit through even the ones I personally consider the weakest installments.

 

Hmm. You do have a point, the differing situations/context are relevant, but I hold the belief that a lot of prequel dialogue can mirror if you look at literal interpretation of the lines. Just out of interest, do you see a contrast in Obi-Wan's "This weapon is your life!" and Yoda's "Your weapons.You will not need them."?

I'm by no means saying this as a slight on the PT, the saga is quite rich for me when (IMO) Yoda and Obi-Wan have adapted somewhat after the prequels. Qui-Gon telling Obi-Wan to "keep his concentration here and now" mirroring Yoda's "All his life as he looked away, to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was!" works great with the concept of Yoda learning from Qui-Gon at the end of ROTS.




More on the main point... If you look at the Jedi/Sith mentoring over the six movies there are patterns.

TPM -
Qui-Gon: "Feel, don't think. Trust your instincts."
AOTC -
Palpatine: "Soon will learn to trust your feelings. Then you will be invincible."
Obi-Wan: "Patience. Use the force. Think."(IMO put in to show Anakin being drawn to Palpatine, and a mentor saying something like this seems exclusive to AOTC).
ANH-
Obi-Wan: "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them." "This time let go your conscious self and act on instinct." "Stretch out with your feelings."
It's interesting to me that the prequels show the Jedi are slowly losing the tug of war (on Anakin's soul) with Sidious, perfectly demonstrated by the interplay between Jedi mentor dialogue and Palpatine dialogue. The abscence of a Jedi telling Anakin to use his feelings in AOTC (if I recall) gives Palaptine the opportunity to swoop in and fill the void. Obi-Wan tells Anakin "Use your feelings, something is out of place!" in ROTS. It just seems to me AOTC is the odd one out in terms of training, and to me it feels a very symbolic demonstration of part of the reason Anakin turned.

Another within ROTS-
Yoda: "Death is a natural part of life..."
Palpatine: "The darkside of the force is a pathway to many abilties, some consider to be unnatural."


Another trivial thing I noticed... Obi-Wan never talks with Anakin about midichlorians in AOTC (the word isn't used in the film), whereas there is a "Jedi lesson" and "Sith lesson" involving them in TPM and ROTS respectively. Qui-Gon attempts to teach Anakin about passively co-existing (and symbiosis) with the midichlorians related to doing the force's will, where Palpatine (at the opera) tells Anakin the story that snares him, the contrasting idea of imposing one's own will on the midichlorians and the force to create or sustain life.


The Jedi and patience is a cool running theme as well...
TPM-
Anakin: "What are we gonna do about it?"
Qui-Gon: "We shall be patient."
AOTC-
Obi-Wan (to Anakin): "Patience!"
ROTS-
Anakin: "I say patience."
ESB-
Obi-Wan (on Luke): "He will learn patience."
Love that Obi-Wan's comment is now based on his experience with Anakin.
Obi-Wan also tells Luke to be patient when he is leaving his Dagobah training to help his friends. Also, Palpatine in AOTC blows smoke up Anakin's ass by telling him his "patience has paid off" when Anakin gets his first assignment. Obi-Wan on the other hand is surprised when Anakin suggest patience in ROTS, and later in the farewell scene tells Anakin "... But be patient Anakin. It will not be long before the Council makes you a Jedi Master."

Sorry to derail the thread

 

Not necessarily, because Yoda never discards the importance of the lightsaber (which Obi-Wan reinforces in Episode IV with it being a Jedi's weapon), his point in that scene is that Luke won't need it in the cave.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I agree that there was some development regarding their mindset after the events of the prequels, I just don't think some of there was a drastic contradiction in their teachings between the trilogies. The first conversation between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan is an example of what I'm trying to explain:

"Keep your concentration here and now where it belongs."
"But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future.
"But not at the expense of the moment."

Qui-Gon doesn't say he should ignore the future. The lesson is to be mindful of both, not one at the expense of the other. Qui-Gon is considered a maverick because the Jedi in the PT were too mindful of the future (which is only half of the whole), to the point where they largely ignored the present (the other half). That's why Qui-Gon spends his time preaching the moment, the living Force, the concept of "Feel, don't think. Use your instincts". That's what the Jedi need to be reminded of.

 

Attack of the Clones

1. Obi-Wan and his Side Story of Awesome
2. Darth Tyranus
3. From the opening until Obi-Wan leaves on his aforementioned Side Story of Awesome
4. The Score
5. Jango Fett
6. Everything from the Arena until the End
7. Padme and the Droid Factory of FUN!

 

I agree with most of what you've said.

He won't need it in the cave, though, symbolising that by going into a situation expecting a fight you've lost before you start. Lucas said the Jedi should love the Sith, and although Lucas contradicts himself a lot, it is implied that Luke is truely a Jedi when he throws his weapon away (of course you are aware), and since the prequels were made it seems Luke has actually surpassed the Republic-era Jedi including Obi-Wan and Yoda, and hence saved Anakin's soul. My point being that although the lightsaber is indeed neccessary in the GFFA (and a stroke of genious on the creator's part), the Jedi were destined to lose in the prequels just by going to war in the first place. I could be wrong, but I think Obi-Wan is demonstrating here that he didn't have what it takes to teach a special case like Anakin, yet he gets it right the second time with Luke.

On another thought-thread all together; I've sometimes wondered if Obi-Wan's line "This weapon is your life!" is a metaphor symbolising the sabers as a sort of reflection of a Jedi or Sith's lifeforce. Afterall, they often lose them at important moments (eg, Mace's going out the window when Anakin dismembers him, Yoda's zapped out of his hand at the end of the Sidious duel, Anakin dismembering Dooku and using his own saber on him,etc) and Luke uses his father's until he is dismembered by Vader, who then reveals himself as Anakin, destroying Luke's image of his father as a heroic figure killed by Vader, and prompting Luke to build his own saber and follow a different path than his father did.

Agreed, well put. I understand what you are saying, I just liked the similarity in the two lessons.

 

Cool thread.

Attack of the Clones

1. Anakin losing it in the garage
2. The understated parts of the score - emphasising both the mystery and approaching doom
3. Palps and the Senators watching the new Grand Army of the Republic heading off to war
4. Watto
5. Obi-Wan vs Jango in the rain

Notable mention - the 'Breathing' teaser trailer for AOTC is easily one of the best SW trailers of the whole lot.

 

Phantom Menace

1. It was shot on 35mm film instead of digital.
2. Maul looked cool.
3. There was some actual location shooting.

 

Revenge of the Sith

1. The Score
2. Obi-Wan and his Side Story of Sadness
3. Darth Sidious vs. Master Yoda
4. Order 66
5. Opening until "another happy landing"

 

It sounds like a cliché, but...

I don't have an "unloved" Star Wars film. I love them all in different ways.

Each is like a child -- uniquely gifted, each with their own personality.


I do feel that AOTC could probably do with a bit more love, though. So...


1) The locations. Varied and great.
Visual design is pretty extraordinary. Lends this installment great scope. It feels the busiest, the broadest, and the most expansive of the films (to me).

2) Anakin's pursuit of Padme and Padme's growing intrigue.
Most people hate the love story and its attendant artefacts, but I find it very well-done and love all the peripheral aspects.

3)The cinematography.
AOTC has a wonderful colour palette. The framing, composition, and lighting are perhaps the best of the saga (IMO).

4) The "spacy" vibe.
AOTC is ... Star Wars From Outer Space! And it's all about inner space. And the space between spaces.
Am I being enigmatic? Great.

5) College Jedi.
This is more of a random note to finish on, but I think AOTC has a "collegiate" feel that opens up our sense of who Anakin is and what he is striving toward or what he thinks he should be (in the same paradigm: TPM is "Sunday School" and ROTS is simply being cast into the unknown). The canvas of the film is similarly widened as we peer into Jedi-dom and get a sort of Jedi's eye-view of their internal goings-on. Early scenes, in particular, have a sort of meditative, scholastic vibe, we get taken into the Jedi Temple, and the "padawan" look of Anakin -- cropped hair, clipped tail, braid with "progress" colours; all atop a toned, lanky frame -- is just about perfect. While a contrivance to some, the love scenes on Naboo represent a space in the film where Anakin and Padme get to know each other, continuing the college feel (with idyllic, pastoral tones), and the culmination of this passage (for me) is Anakin retreating into meditation after his sweat-inducing nightmare, trying to bat away Padme's concern with the immortally tragic line: "Jedi don't have nightmares". The film then transitions into a new realm as prior clemency and learning are forgotten; and murder and war seep forth. Somehow, I find that very cogent and evocative; and in this regard, I perhaps appreciate AOTC most of all.

JMO, anyway.

 

Wow. I actually understand what you're saying, and it really brings together some of my more nebulous thoughts on what's wrong with, well, not necessarily entire Star Wars films, but many portions of them. I think AotC did really well in that "mysterious space feel" you mentioned. Not everything needs to be put on a map, and then explained. It's often more fun to let the imagination run wild instead.

With this I agree also. The color selection is fantastic. The grays of Coruscant play nicely upon the somewhat "routine" mission of chasing somebody down. While I don't like the banter in that scene, the tone of their mission is great. I also like the scene on Tatooine where Anakin is chasing down the Tuskens. The dark red and subsequent nightfall make Anakin's anger and undertones of fear make that scene very powerful for me.

I also think the locations were great. We see Coruscant, Kamino, Geonosis, Naboo... They all feel different and aid the scenes.


A list of my own, so that I'm not just an echo....

The Phantom Menace:

1) The Jedi Council Room at night. While the scene in and of itself is mediocre, I love the lighting of it.
2) The droids actually being competent in taking over Theed.
3) Qui-Gon-Jinn
4) Palpatine.

 

Yes. Although, just to be sure, I was definitely talking about the overall look, feel, and attitude of the movie. Not its presentation of outer space or space travel. Although, feeding into that, there is obviously the mysterious world of Kamino, erased from the Jedi Archives, home to the saga's closest depiction -- thus far, anyway -- of those elusive "grey" aliens of contemporary folklore.

For a closer instantiation of what I mean, I will adduce the example of floating. Note how many objects either float or appear to float in some manner in AOTC. Even the camera "drifts" up at the start of the movie. It's much more of a surreal landscape: a dream world. Above all else, I think the colours, the framing, and the soft-focus look of the film all reinforce its murky, moody, diaphanous nature.

Now, again, yes. I would just like to say that I conceive of the Coruscant chase scene differently to you, however. My mind's eye doesn't see greys, but gleaming pastels, erotically daubed all over the screen. It's as Anakin describes Padme (IMO): intoxicating.

I'm not all that keen on the Jedi Council scenes in any of the movies, actually. They feel quite anodyne to me (though, I suppose, that is also the point). I do very much like Anakin's "testing" scene, though; and I'm quite fond of the night-time one you refer to.

 

Certainly nothing so literal as actual space-travel. I think this film captures, not space itself, but the vastness of it better than perhaps TPM or other sci-fi films. There is a certain ineffable quality to Kamino, and how much it differs from the "civilized" Coruscant, also with Geonosis or Tatooine. Allow me to say that it just feels like a galaxy far, far away.

 

Revenge of the Sith ...just a few random highlights, some with visuals aids (any excuse to go visual, really).

1) The slightly comical timing/nature of General Grievous' chronic breathing complications—alone, as his own audience: "Time to abandon ship! ...Hehehehehehagh *cough* "

2) The look of the Jedi's battle briefing room for which Anakin arrives late. Once Obi-Wan shuts off the hologram projector, the room goes considerably dark and the two characters converse as silhouettes. A very business-like scene nonetheless subversively lit.



3) Darth Sidious. He's just so goddamn evil. He friggin loves it. It's as if he schemed the whole trilogy plot simply for the excuse to entertain himself with cackles and various Halloween faces; as if the guy had since grown tired of "hiding in the closet" so to speak and therefore, with a newfound 'gotta-be-me' philosophy, aimed to stage the most elaborate 'coming out' bonanza in the history of the galaxy. And you know what? Good for him.

4) Anakin playing Tetris on a couch in Padme's apartment. Yes, it was Tetris. Not inventory, not important war updates ...Tetris.

5) Yoda outright confessing his failure to Bail Organa. It takes a big man to admit when he drops the ball.

6) The transitioning 'meanwhile' scene where Obi-Wan resurfaces from a cavernous sink-hole lagoon with a nearby searching probe droid. I dunno, in the immediate wake of the whole Order 66, Jedi purge operatic, it's just comes as an ethereally quiet "spacey" moment, in the depths of some strange alien world with strange far away happenings. I like the way it looks and feels, reminding me of the utmost fantasy construct that are these films, at their weirdest core.

 

Could you show that? I don't remember it.

 

I like this scene too. Obiwan abruptly shutting off the projector, followed by the darkening of the lights, silhouettes and the hushed tones really helps to create a feeling of paranoia and cloak and dagger.

 

The canvas feels larger, the world more dynamic and enveloping -- no disagreements there. Once again, however, I was talking about the strangeness of the movie generally: Star Wars: A Space Oddity. "From Outer Space" was just my way of idiomatically suggesting weirdness.

But you're right about that "ineffable" quality of Kamino. In fact, when I think about it, AOTC is markedly stranger in giving us three "desert"-like environs: Tatooine, Geonosis, and yes, I'd put Kamino in there. A trifecta of moody, desolate "otherness". Note how "distant" all these worlds are with respect to the Republic.

And AOTC's total sums to five planets traversed by main protagonists (on which they undergo trials or reach ekstasis) -- another difference with respect to the other movies. The other movies tend to break down into three worlds or schema. AOTC paves the way for ROTS, but still pulls something back for itself. ROTS is very busy with no less than twelve worlds (really -- count 'em), yet it doesn't violate the "three world" pattern all that much (roughly: Coruscant, Utapau, Mustafar).

Ah, another post of mine that starts to read a bit more like a tabulation. I can see how some might think that AOTC is cold or robot-minded, but I kinda see it as an art film for the 21st Century. Maybe we even need a bit of "machine" intelligence ("Machines making machines -- how perverse!") before it really starts clicking; before we can really unlock its secrets.

I also like the austere ambience of that scene. If you look at the frames offered by Ingram, two of them show white lights streaming down like pins or daggers; or ghosting stars. The characters are very nearly trapped in a sci-fi prison.

Also, I like the way the scene is directed. Pay attention to the end when the characters mount the steps. Obi-Wan gently ascends one step at a time, but Anakin aggressively takes two in each stride.

The closing line of dialogue also echoes earlier lines from Obi-Wan in TPM and AOTC when he communicates similar woo: "All of this is unusual and it's making me feel uneasy." (Like the way McGregor recites that line, too).

And as (un)-(un)usual, Obi-Wan seems to inadvertently bat away Anakin's small ray of ego-sensitive hope: "That's unusual, isn't it?" Well, yes, Obi-Wan thinks it is; along with everything else. Don't get ahead of yourself, Anakin.

A small but very well-done scene, IMO!

 

Good catch on the light-strip prison! What a succinct metaphor for the Jedi Order's unknowing entrapment. Obi-Wan senses the prison bars closing in, despite the war "going very well", but he doesn't know what it is he's sensing.

I've always loved the difference in how they ascend the steps. Also, I'm intrigued by the bas-relief sigil to their left at the top of the stairs. I initially thought it looks somewhat fern-like, but recently it's struck me more and more like (this may be a little far out) a stylised anatomical diagram of the female reproductive tract --- just something about the curves and positive/negative play of shapes. Fascinating to have that juxtaposed against war room briefing and political intrigue between the Jedi Order and the Chancellory (which I've begun to see as being, respectively, the mother and father, in a sense, of the monster Anakin became --- Vader was in a way born of their increasing, unholy intimacy in the war).

 

This is starting to resemble the 'Hidden Meaning' thread. Interesting observations. Do you really think the light strips are an intentional metaphor though. Couldn't they just be ... lights? Maybe the green and red buttons on the door panel are a metaphor for a decision as to whether they go ahead with their plan or stop...

 

LOL, sorry. I don't un-love any of the films, so I didn't think I really had anything to contribute to the thread. I'm just enjoying what others have pointed out. Thanks for starting a great topic!

 

I'm not complaining. Just an observation. Thanks for all of your thoughts. Interesting reading.