The FFUK War Council

Can I just say, it's really nice to see how balanced and grown-up this conversation is

 

Hi

War is bad. War is very bad, expecially this one.

War is the last resort of diplomacy. Some could call it "aggressive negotiations" but in this instance the conflict is senseless. One of the motivations behind the terrorist instances in Washington and New York was the first Gulf War. Do people think that by having another war, the risk of terrorism will evaporate!?! I don't think so.

However, politics has run its course and the democraticly elect representitives of our government have decided to send in the troops. It is now time to support our troops. They are some of the best soldiers in the world, and have always done their best for their country. Just like many people back home, I am sure that they too would rather the war was not happening. However, they have a job to do and they will do it well.

Apart from the loss of service personnel, possibly the second most tragic aspect of this conflict will be that the media will never concentrate so much effort on how to rebuild Iraq once the military has gone.

We do not live in the '90s any more, unlike the US admiral with his "Hammer Time" remarks. The British Army does not have the huge budgets of the US or Swedish military, but we go in, get the job done and return home. Our special forces are legendry and with the Desert rate and the Dambusters squadron in the area, historical precedence is in our favour.

I wish our troops the best of luck in their jobs out in the Gulf. Whatever postion they hold, they will do the job they have trained for and they will do it in a professional manner.



V.

 

However, you have not provided a scenario other than war to deal with this situation, and it would be interesting to read what you think we should have done.

I would have allowed diplomacy more time. I would have given the UN Weapons Inspectors more time. I would have spent more effort seeking the support of the international community. I would have only expected war to be waged with the sanction and support of the UN.

Instead we have been hurried into this war. The massive military build-up in the Arabian Gulf and surrounding region meant that war has been inevitable for many months. I know the argument that there has to be a credible threat but it is clear to me that you don?t invest that much military hardware and personnel without the intention of using it. Wouldn?t it be true to say that the USA would have suffered a huge loss of respect and standing, if it Saddam had left the country and complied with the UN resolutions? Wouldn?t it have been a humiliating climb down for the US to bring its troops home without a single shot or missile being fired? Think of the monetary cost of the military operation that did nothing? Not to mention the political cost.

I personally think we were boxed into a position where there was only one possible way out ? to use military force. No wonder the international community did not support us.

And just consider for a moment that NEVER has the UK gone to war with its population so divided by the need for conflict. NEVER have we seen such massive demonstrations against war. The government suffered the biggest revolt by its own MP?s against military action, only this past week. We are divided country in a divided international community and despite the propaganda, I fail to be convinced for the need for this war.


If we waited for France and Russia, both aillies of Iraq to agree to a war, we would have had to wait another 12 years.

And? We have waited more than three decades for Israel to comply with UN resolutions.


In case you didn't notice the UN has seased to function, its a worthless and pointless orginsation, and should be reformed before things get worse.

No, the UN hasn?t ceased to function. The UN is the voice of reason and its role is to ensure international security and peace. It has been used disgracefully by the US, which as the last remaining superpower feels it can wield its will and military muscle without the rest of the international community. That is the tragedy of all this. The UN is a strong organisation, a worthwhile and necessary one. The fact that it has been so badly abused by one of its key members is deeply concerning.


Its pointless and toothless, why make Resoulations, if your not going to back them up by force, one of us breaks the law, we get fined, or sent to prison, not let off without anything happening.

Again, the UN is there to uphold peace, not to wage war. It is not a militarily based organisation. The use of military force is not the only way you ensure that countries comply with resolutions. There are also economic sanctions, which can be brought to bear on countries that do not meet the UN?s will and I am sure that there are other routes of redress as well, such as diplomatic pressure.


War is the last resort of diplomacy. Some could call it "aggressive negotiations" but in this instance the conflict is senseless. One of the motivations behind the terrorist instances in Washington and New York was the first Gulf War. Do people think that by having another war, the risk of terrorism will evaporate!?! I don't think so.


I quite agree. If anything this conflict will inflame the feelings of extremists against the West. Again, I would point to the unfairness of this conflict. Why Iraq? Why not Israel, which at the risk of labouring a point, continues to illegally occupy Palestine? Where is the justice and morality in this war? Especially when we armed Saddam Hussein! Not just the French and Germans as someone else tried to point out earlier. But us! The UK ? Margare

 

Our troops need all the support they can get right now. Moral must have suffered due to the events overnight. I'm not just referring to the friendly fire incident, but also the US Marine who cracked up and threw a grenade into a tent killing one of his own colleagues.

I hope no one starts attaching blame for the friendly fire incident at this stage as at the moment it would appear to have been an automatic defence system error perhaps brought about my incompatibility of technology. It is a known fact that the US military computer systems are not compatible with the UK ones and this has caused similar problems before. Hopefully, they will have an explanation soon in order to prevent it happening again.

 

Hands up all those who thought that the shot into Iran was an "accident"?

V.

 

I dont make assumptions when there is barely any information.



It appears support is rising


I wouldnt be in support of attacking Iran though, not yet at least.

 

I would have allowed diplomacy more time. I would have given the UN Weapons Inspectors more time. I would have spent more effort seeking the support of the international community. I would have only expected war to be waged with the sanction and support of the UN.

And the fact that in the past 12 years, the three meagre concessions that Iraq has made to us are the only headway we have. Quite frankly, it is pitiful in relation to the amount of weapons that they are expected to have. If we kept on the speed we were going, we would have still been here in five years. They are playing for time by feeding this pitiful amount to us, and it is frightening to consider what plans they are considering.

And why do you think that they have started to concede illegal weapons to the inspectors?
Because they have been threatened with military action, which at the end of the day is the only language that they can understand.

And at then end of the day, will these inspections see the downfall of Saddam Hussein? No.
He would have still been there at the end of all this, making plans for more weapons to be built.

 

Perhaps DarthBurns, perhaps not It's one of those things we will never find out.

Iran is next? Oh please - surely not. I've been to Iran. It's isolationist with regards to international affairs and leaves everybody else alone and just wants to be left alone. They are not an extreme Islamic nation. There are Christians living next door to Muslims in Iran. Women work and there is no strict dress code - not all women wear the scarf in Iran nevermind the Burka. To attack Iran would be extreme folly indeed considering its current neutrality.

If the US starts to push for an invasion of Iran, then I would seriously have to question the sanity of the Bush administration.

EDIT: typo

 

Yeah. In Iraq's case, I cant see one reason why Hussain shouldnt be removed. With Iran, I can't see many reasons we should go in TO remove.

 

Exactly, especially since Iran is probably very happy with the US and UK right now.

 

Reaper -= I read your comparisons of Hitler and Saddam.. And your talk of how Saddam has killed Kirds.

I take it from what you wrote that you are, therefore, disgusted with the US governments trippling of the Turkish military budget and the continued use of that extra warfare equipment in the killing of Kurds {argubly more then Saddam ever did kill}

Also you will be disgusted at the current Turkish invasion of the Kurd areas in Northern Iraq.

Finally I take it you wish for action to be taken against those in the US government who sold Saddam his Chemical Weapons and put out propaganda during the attacks pretending it was Iran who had done the Chemicaling. {essentially the US were supporting Saddam when he killed the Kurds, just as they support Turkey now.}
Ofcourse - much in the government has changed since those times...

[image=http://www.thegeekhost.com/tyranus/images/rumsfeldsadam.jpg]

Oh, no it hasn't! There's Mr Rumsfeld smiling and selling to Iraq! {He's the current defense secretary you know!}

 

Has anyone else noticed that the "live" coverage on ITV often looks like the reporters are against blue screen? The other day it was so apparant that the news reader wasn't actually there The shadows were all off ,there was line around the bloke and the camera was far to steady for a field report-

I don't blame them -Hell I wouldn't want their job - but the fact is they tried to pass it off as live from the fied

 

Yes America did provide weapons, and most likely plans for WND to the Current Iraqi rulers, BUT at that time it was what was best for the Country, the cold war on, the Russians and their aillies had to be contained, so at the time it was the right decision.

Last night there were reports of chemical weapons factories been found, if this turns out to be true the UN will have to support the war.

But there are going to be a hell of a number of problems, when ever the war ends, the Kurds in the north will call for an independent country, which will annoy Turkey.

 

There's definitely gonna be a problem in the North especially since Turkey has already sent troops across the border.

The Chemical Plant - if it does turn out to be a chemical weapons factory it would be surprising considering where it is located. Hmm, perhaps that makes it an ideal place.

 

''Yes America did provide weapons, and most likely plans for WND to the Current Iraqi rulers, BUT at that time it was what was best for the Country, the cold war on, the Russians and their aillies had to be contained, so at the time it was the right decision. ''

Yes, just as 'now' it is the right decission to give weapons to Turkey to murder it's Kurds and invade Notrthern Iraq............?

I reiterate. Such policies are short-sighted if they are meant to fulfil their stated goals.
More likely though they are designed to do what they have done for the last god knows how many years. Keep the middle east fractured and at war with each other.

 

America will lose a hell of a lot of support if it lets the Turkey attack the Kurds.

 

You mean if they let the news of it leak...

 

It's hard to believe that Turkish troops entered Northern Iraq to protect the Kurds considering that the majority of the Iraqi forces are busy engaged with the US and UK in the South and around Baghdad. The excuse they gave is that they are trying to stop Kurdish refugees from crossing the border into Turkey.

 

Yeeees, because - as a Kurd - you would really want to go to a country that has been murding your people :rolls eyes

The murder of Kurds by Turkey IS BAD and, like when Iraq did it, is being done with the tacit approval of the US.
Makes you want to laugh whewn the US talks of being 'humanitarian'

 

Exactly - the Turkish announcement did make me chuckle slightly, in a sad sarcastic kind of way.

Apparently our troops are now 60 miles south of Baghdad - will be interesting to see if they keep going north to flush out the Turks once they've secured the city.

 

toochilled, you make it sound as if the US is giving Turkey these weapons on the basis that they should go out and blatantly slaughter the Kurds.

George Bush has made it clear the Turks should not cross the border into Iraq.

 

The Chemical Plant - if it does turn out to be a chemical weapons factory it would be surprising considering where it is located. Hmm, perhaps that makes it an ideal place.


Yeah, that's why I think it could be true. Best place to hide them is in a strange place





Heard Madonna's protest song yet? Jeez, she could at least try to make a decent song

 

I had the pleasure of seeing the entire Madonna video uncut and have to say, good for her. Ok, I know some people don't like it and say that showing such images is sick, but war is sick and the images of death that the video contains reminds people of the realities of war.

 

Not seen the video. Just saying the song is garbage

 

Ah - well that needs no debating

Her political awareness may have gone up, but her music standard has dropped.

The best political video so far has got to be George Michael's - I believe that wasn't shown in the US?