The Fifth Installment of the 2004 Jedi Draft.

Discussion in 'Star Wars Community' started by bburditt, Sep 29, 2004.

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  1. JediMasterRevan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2004
    star 4
  2. EMPEROR_WINDU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2002
    star 5
    Corran combines the intense competitiveness and the compassionate conservatism that makes a great GM in these Jedi Drafts



    OK, seriously Corran had a monster team there guys....Thon as a number 4?!?! Well that's just craziness.But Thon wasnt well known and his skills were underrated...But thanks to Corran, he's now a low-tier first round pick

    I'm not saying he has put the best team ever together, but the guy deserves some respect....Even if he does like Dubya :p
  3. EMPEROR_WINDU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2002
    star 5
    Looking back on my past in the Draft, I've underachieved a bit... I did put together a 3rd place awhile back, and I guess I finished tied for 3rd in this one, correct?


    I hope I'm not one of those GMs that just can't seem to put it all together and win one...Although I was pleased with my performance in this last draft
  4. Pellaeon-Firke Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2004
    star 5
    Want to make a deal??

    Sure.

    If I lose, I'll give you all my Star Wars guys. NO! Except Boba Fett. No matter how sure I am, I never bet the Fett man.

    --Paraphrase of Peter Griffin

    And Corran Horn (IMO) shouldn't go in the second round. The second round this game was:

    Round 2

    1. GenMadine - Nomi Sunrider
    2. HandofSkywalker86 ? Ulic Qel-Droma
    3. solojones - Qui-Gon Jinn
    4. Talon_Kenobi - Plo Koon
    5. EMPEROR_WINDU - Vodo Siosk-Baas
    6. darth_nemisis - Naga Sadow
    7. Darth-Horax - Darth Maul
    8. PadawanEmily - Shaak Ti
    9. Suzuki_Akira - Darth Malak
    10. SecondBest - Saesee Tiin
    11. Ghost_Jedi - Bastilla Shan
    12. JediMasterRevan - Mara Jade Skywalker

    Who on that list could Corran beat? Shaak Ti, the Tiin Man, and maybe MJS, with a very very outside shot at Plo Koon. He went 3rd round, above 2 or 3 people I'd say are better than him (KK, Depa, and Sora). Add that up, and you get that he should be about 25th overall.
  5. MoronDude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    Listen, guys.
    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
    So lets realize that changes happen for a reason.
    To me, this whole restructuring the draft is a nessesary part of growth.

    Personally, I think that things have been getting tense lately.
    Only a handful of participants are to blame, but a few rotten apples spoil the bunch.
    Seriously though, I'm sure we'll get it all worked out.
    Together, we can make the draft better than ever.
  6. darth_nemisis Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2004
    star 6
    What is that stuff about Last Post

    darth_nemisis
  7. Corran-Horn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2004
    star 4
    WINDU: Thanks for the kind words ;)

    Firke: Personally, I would vote Corran over many of the PT Jedi Masters, including Depa and Tiin. Granted other people probably don't agree with me, but that's there own business. Corran, however, is in my Top 20 Jedi/Sith in this competition.

    EDIT: I just saw this:

    "I hope I'm not one of those GMs that just can't seem to put it all together and win one..."

    *cough*e_s*cough*

    Sorry, couldn't resist :p


    ~Corran
  8. Ghost_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2003
    star 5
    "I hope I'm not one of those GMs that just can't seem to put it all together and win one..."


    wouldn't know what you are all talking about there willis.



    And isn't it funny how some of the original gm's rather be 'retired' then face the competition that is around today?
  9. Suzuki_Akira Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2003
    star 7
    Come on, Corran. Kar Vastor does not get any special power from the jungle. Argue it if you like but I just finished reading Shatterpoint.

    Pelekotan=The Jungle=The Force

    Kar Vastor is in tune with the Jungle, he doesn't draw any power whatsoever from it. The pelekotan he draws power from is the Force, and something teeming with life like a jungle is naturally symbolic to the Force. Pelekotan is no more potent on Haruun Kal than any other life dense area is, the concept of the jungle is a cultural one and not one of the Force. Kar Vastor's power is his own, his ability to connect with the Force with the jungle as a conduit, not an amplifier. Kar Vastor's power is amazing and its his own. I dare any of you to try and prove me wrong. Meanwhile I'll prove my side of the argument:

    "Vastor had power on the scale of Master Yoda, or young Anakin Skywalker..."

    -Shatterpoint Page 268 Paragraph 7


    It doesn't get any more clear than that. If the jungle increased power then anyone with Force ability could manipulate it. Regardless of Light or Dark, regardless of Korrunai or Jedi. Anyone. But Mace never even mentions the jungle having any power, all of your opinions on the matter are conjecture based on misquoting. None of you can find me a point where Vastor saps power from the jungle, because you forget that pelekotan, the Korunnai word for the jungle power and the Force have been established as the same thing.

  10. PadawanEmily Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2003
    star 8
  11. HandofSkywalker86 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2004
    star 4
    I agree with Suzuki, I recently read Shatterpoint and that is the exact same feeling I got with regards to Vastor and Pelekton. To me Vastor should definitely go before Depa as he owned her in more ways than one. :D

    Hand
  12. EMPEROR_WINDU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2002
    star 5
    I still hold that the jungle is to his advantage...Both in Force strength and in using it against his opponents...


    Mace found it so hard to concentrate in the jugnle that he feared even meditating or he could fall to the dark side. He is also apprehnesive about using Vapaad on Haruun Kal because of it's tendencies to push the user to the DS, and on Haruun Kal that was a big problem. Vastor is a beast, but without the jungle to amplify in my opinion there is no way he could stand up to the likes of Windu or Depa
  13. HandofSkywalker86 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2004
    star 4
    As Suzuki said the jungle is a cultural issue. When Mace refers to the Jungle I think he is simply reffering to the atmosphere of the war and its effects on the Jedi. It was this atmosphere that lead a weaker willed Depa to damnation, while the psychologically stronger Mace refused to be damned. Vaapad IMO opens a force user up to there basest emotions and Mace is able to narrowly overcome this while Depa falters.

    Depa, IMO, is surely weaker than Vastor in that she states that she doesn't think he has any weaknesses.

    Hand
  14. Pellaeon-Firke Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2004
    star 5
    I still hold that the jungle is to his advantage...Both in Force strength and in using it against his opponents...

    Home field is always a big deal, which is why I've had a stupid idea kicking around in my head to pick a planet to hold each draft on, thereby giving some Jedi an advantadge over others. 5 that pop into my head are Korriban, Yavin, Dantooine, Ossus, and Coruscant, each giving advantadges to a different group, but there are probably others we could use.

    Back on topic, when they are in the city (not the jungle, so if anything Mace has an advantadge) is when Mace remarks that he couldn't beat Vastor on his best day. If some people take Mace's remarks about Depa at face value, I see no reason why Vastor can't be a higher pick than 70th overall.
  15. Suzuki_Akira Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2003
    star 7
    Windu, there isn't an ounce of factual support or truth in what you're saying. PPOR. The jungle has no power of its own-the carnage and evil of the war and the evil of those on the planet was what threatened Dark Side for Mace. The whole point of his worry over Depa is not the effect of the jungle but that she went sane, which meant that she realized some things psychologically out of seeing the horrors of war. The jungle is merely a symbol of the primordial, the primitive, the lack of civilization. Vastor's power is the Force, and it is stronger than even his cousin/clanmate Windu.
  16. GenMadine Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 6
    He beat up Mace, becauseMace did not use a saber and Mace toyed with him

    The book says that. Mace did get hurt, but if the saber was involved, Kar would have been turned into chunky salsa.

    That is why Kar is overrated. He is not a saber combatant, and while it is not the only thing we judge here, when a weapon is coming at you and you cannot defend against it, well, when Jedis are concerned, you lose.

    My two cents

    Madine out
  17. EMPEROR_WINDU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2002
    star 5
    I agree with a great deal of that Madine


    Suzuki: You don't have any evidence that Vastor isnt taking power from the jungle...but i think he is
  18. Qui-Gon-Jinn2 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2002
    star 4
    I would have a tendancy to think that Vastor is stronger than nearly all jedi in the force, but I do think like Madine said, that his weaponary (or lack thereof) hurts him greatly in this competition. My 2 cents.

    *Takes back 2 cents*



    Anyway, great job Suzuki.


    Edit: In all fairness Windu, the burden of proof falls on you, since you are making the positive claim (i.e he IS as opposed to he ISN't)
  19. Pellaeon-Firke Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2004
    star 5
    He beat up Mace, becauseMace did not use a saber and Mace toyed with him

    Proof, please. Mace specifically says that if he (Mace) wanted to walk away from their fight, he had to fight Vastor unarmed.

    The book says that. Mace did get hurt, but if the saber was involved, Kar would have been turned into chunky salsa.

    PPOR, please. Having read the book in question 3 times, I strongly disagree.

    What you're saying is equivalent to stating that Obi-Wan could have beaten Maul easily if he'd been trying. In the book, Vastor is to Mace as Maul is to Kenobi.

    That is why Kar is overrated. He is not a saber combatant, and while it is not the only thing we judge here, when a weapon is coming at you and you cannot defend against it, well, when Jedis are concerned, you lose.

    Ah, but vibroshields deflect lightsabers. They are far from normal weapons, and they can deflect any strike from a saber. Combine that with Kar's beastly power, unarmed combat skills, and experience, you've got a PT Jedi killing machine, because he can exploit all of their weaknesses: lack of experience, lack of non-Force combat abilities, and reliance on their superiority.

    And as to the line about weapons, that's not always correct: the Fetts, Kir Kanos, and Aurra Sing are just a few of the many people who have taken Force-sensitives down without using a saber.

    EDIT: WINDU, once again, the quote from Mace where he doubts his ability to fight Vastor at all is when the fight in question is in the city. Not the jungle. Vastor has very little, if any, advantadge in the cities of Haruun Kal, and Mace is still scared of him. That, to me, says that Mace knows that the power he draws isn't merely (or mainly) drawn from the jungle.

    And why would he bring Nick Rostu back as a Force-sensitive instructor for the GAR if he thought his Force abilities would be weak off the planet?
  20. GenMadine Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 6
    Mace specifically says that if he (Mace) wanted to walk away from their fight, he had to fight Vastor unarmed.
    rephrase this - it makes little sense the way it is written,

    And I cannot quote a book off the top of my head, and since I am at work, I cannot look it up for you. The final battle between the two of them, I remember Mace or Depa or someone saying something to the effect that Mace finally stopped toying with him.

    And you are truly telling me that Vastor can stand up to Mace with his wristbands or a virbroshield or whatever armor he had, off the top of my head, I Cannot remember, when Mace Windu is armed with a saber, out of that jungle, in the Jedi Draft arena?

    If you believe that, well, to me, that proves yet again why you are not the strongest candidate to be a judge. Because that is a skewed way of thinking...

    We are talking MACE-FREAKIN-WINDU here.

    Madine out
  21. HandofSkywalker86 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2004
    star 4
    Vibroshields are designed to be able to stand up to lightsabers. Mace and Vastor fight to a draw when both are using there weapons, both aren't at their fighting peaks. I trust that if Mace Windu says that he'd have serious problems with Vastor he knows what he's talking about. Only through guile does Mace beat Vastor and I don't think their would be any convenient debris lying around for his opponents to throw at him.

    I think Firke is a great judge: he explains all of his calls, backs them up with facts, and is IMO very knowledgeable about all the Jedi. I disagreed with some of his calls but I saw how he could of voted the way he did. I think he may lean slightly toward some Eras but he has very good reasons why. Plus he gave the nod to Kunstoppable over Mace which made me extremely happy and put him on my Christmas card list.

    Hand
  22. Pellaeon-Firke Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2004
    star 5
    rephrase this - it makes little sense the way it is written,

    If Mace believes that if Mace fights Kar, Mace will die unless the fight is unarmed. That better?

    And I cannot quote a book off the top of my head, and since I am at work, I cannot look it up for you. The final battle between the two of them, I remember Mace or Depa or someone saying something to the effect that Mace finally stopped toying with him.

    I just reread the last fight, and Depa and Nick aren't around for that part, so nobody says anything like that.

    The other fight, in the jungle, is won honestly by Vastor through his use of the jungle. I'll concede that the jungle was partially responsible, but Kar also demonstrates some primordial Dun Moch abilities (look it up) in the jungle as well as his general combat skills, so it still looks good.

    As to whether Mace threw it, reread Shatterpoint, paperback page 253.

    And you are truly telling me that Vastor can stand up to Mace with his wristbands or a virbroshield or whatever armor he had, off the top of my head, I Cannot remember, when Mace Windu is armed with a saber, out of that jungle, in the Jedi Draft arena?

    Stand up? Hell yes. Win? Of course not.

    One problem I've always had with this draft is that we (or at least I) don't really know where they are fighting. Are there objects in the arena, spectators, cliffs, or any of the other enviromental factors that might play towards one fighter or another, or towards one style of combat? The presence or absence of those factors is quite important to me.

    If you believe that, well, to me, that proves yet again why you are not the strongest candidate to be a judge. Because that is a skewed way of thinking...

    Skewed how? Towards the way it happened to play out? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
  23. EMPEROR_WINDU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2002
    star 5
    If a judge were to say that Vastor>Windu...I think we would be shocked...


    The fight was unarmed BECAUSE of the 6 Akk Guards and what? 12 Akk Dogs?


    He didnt fight Vastor with the blade because when he killed him, he would have been ripped apart by the Guards and Akk Dogs...As would any other Force user ever born


    He needed to make the fight personal to satisfy Vastor's basic instincts of leading the pack around the jungle

    And during the final fight Mace is absolutly a wreck...Cracked ribs, sprained ankles, lightsabre would all the way through his abdomen(Qui-Gon-like)...Yes he says that he wasnt sure if he could beat Vastor on his best day.But Windu also says earlier in the book that Depa was more skilled with a sabre in the Circus Horrificus

    So, maybe Depa>Mace?....No, I just take the view that Mace is actually willing to give out praise to others, even if it isnt totally true...


    Shatterpoint is full of quotes like that...Think back to Palpy's office at the beginning of the book when he,Yoda and Palps are talking and Mace said he had to go alone. Palpy suggests why not a task force of Jedi...Mace goes on to say that he is the only one in the galaxy that can stop her...And he did stop her, but does this suggest that Mace>Yoda? No.

    What is said by some of these characters in a very subjective POV needs to be taken for what it's worth

    Vastor is not better than Mace
    Mace is better than Depa
    Mace is not better than Yoda

    Although there are quotes in the books to suggest otherwise
  24. Pellaeon-Firke Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2004
    star 5
    Any word from the mods or burd as to when the next draft is? Hopefully soon, but I dunno when discussions will start or what the verdict will be, so who knows.
  25. Suzuki_Akira Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2003
    star 7
    That's because Mace's goal wasn't to kill her. It had to be someone who could bring her back and defeat her if necessary. No one else fit the bill. And Madine, just what are you talking about? You say Firke isn't qualified to judge because of his way of thinking, but you don't even know the slightest thing about Shatterpoint. The book directly contradicts you, saying that Vastor beat Mace because Mace couldn't possibly have won the fight, and that Vastor was so powerful that if Mace had been holding back then Vastor would have sensed it and killed him.

    You couldn't even remember what weapons Vastor used or anything about their fights, and yet you have the gall to speak authoritatively. Hell, you don't even know anything about the fight between Mace and Vastor at the end and the fact that Mace didn't beat Vastor with a saber, rather with a brilliant trick.

    No one, either, is saying that Vastor is better than Mace. On Mace's level? Sure as hell.
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