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The Final Duel: NO INTERCUTTING, please!

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by IronParrot, Jun 26, 2002.

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  1. IronParrot

    IronParrot Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Aug 2, 1999
    George Lucas loves to do simultaneous battles. He proved as much in ROTJ and TPM's respective climaxes, and he admitted as much in the TPM audio commentary.

    But if I have one big, big wish regarding the editing of Episode III... it would be to make the Obi-Wan/Anakin duel continuous. The flow of the mood needs to remain consistent - not like ROTJ, where the (in my opinion) most emotionally riveting sequence in the entire saga, the final confrontation between Luke/Vader/Emperor, is broken up into pieces with the space and Endor battles in between. It's about time George Lucas realizes that the power of the Obi-Wan/Anakin duel will be maximized by drawing the audience in - and keeping it there. The final confrontation in Dooku's hangar in AOTC already attests to the effectiveness of staying in a single setting continuously; while the emotional power of Anakin going off to find his mother and his subsequent actions - specifically, how it was broken into so many short segments - shows how unwelcome sudden interruptions in an involving mood could be.

    Agree? Disagree?
  2. DarthMak

    DarthMak Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jan 4, 2001
    I agree totally. If the scenes are switched around, audience emotions are switched as well. Keeping one powerful scene in would be the way to go. I wish they would have done that for the lightsaber battle in TPM.
  3. That_Wascally_Droid

    That_Wascally_Droid Jedi Knight star 6

    Jul 29, 2001
    Depends on how long it is and what it's interspersed with.
    DotF would've lasted five minutes max without intercutting.
    Plus, in the story that is Star Wars, you need intercutting so that you don't get drama overkill. Then the drama will start boring the audience. You want to build to a point to catch the audiences interest, then lte go with something else, build it back up, let it go. Build it and let it rip.
    That's what he did with TPM, ESB, and RotJ. In ANH and AotC he only had a very brief interlude. I think the intercutting elongates the scene and thereby makes it more suspensful.
    But you have to intercut it with something of near equal value. In ESB it was the rest of the group's attempted rescue of Han and their escape.
    In RotJ it was the ground and space battles.
    In TPM it was the ground and space battles and to a lesser extent, Padme and co. Weather or not that worked for you in TPM is besides the question. The point is, you have breathers in there.

    In Ep III I'm imagining the duel interspersed with at least Padme's story whatever it might be.
  4. stinrab

    stinrab Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jul 9, 1998
    Oh, I agree. The most memorable moments in the OT for me (the Death Star trench run and the ESB Luke/Vader duel) had almost no intercutting at all. The Dooku/Yoda/Anakin/Obi fight of the PT likewise carries on this trend and is probably the best sequence in that trilogy so far. The emotional impact of an Obi/Ani duel wouldn't be the same if it was intercut with something else
  5. SDPadres13

    SDPadres13 Jedi Youngling

    Mar 10, 2002
    I also totally agree. This is one of the most intimate fights in the entire saga. Episode I, it was strictly business, thus the intercutting. The whole point of intercutting that was to show that there was little hope that Naboo's side was going to win. However, in Episode III, which should be more personal, we're dealing with one of the major events of the saga: when Anakin turns to the Dark side. It's the biggest question the PT's going to answer. So, imo, it should be a one-on-one duel, without any one of them (Obi or Anakin) fighting right before or after it.
  6. That_Wascally_Droid

    That_Wascally_Droid Jedi Knight star 6

    Jul 29, 2001
    I definately seem to be in the minority here :)
    But remember the saying 'Too much of a good thing. . .'
    ESB was good, but it too had intercutting at crucial times IMO.
    Right after the duel starts, and after Luke pulls himself back onto the catwalk. It gives you breath time.
    I'm not saying cut it like cheese after a bean grande meal, but some breaks between action are needed. I actually think ESB could've used a cut right after Luke enters the tube right before the telekenisis battle. Dunno what they'd put there, but it might be good. Then it also frames the telekenisis battle into it's own scene. How it is now, Luke goes from oneduel right into the next.
    TPM is actually played very much the same way duel-wise. They start it, break. Let it go into the generator room and break again (much like a break in ESB would be), go until they're stopped by the force fields (logical cut), and so on. Each seperate part of the fight has it's own frame so you can digest each one.
    AotC has an odd one. Right in the middle of the Obi-Wan/Dooku duel. Maybe if placed right after the beginning, or let the duel go a bit longer, and then cut, then cut back, add some footage and maybe a line, then have Obi-Wan bite it.
    See, how he could've done it (but he didn't and I don't care, I loved the duels reguardless), is have Obi-Wan fight, do the cut I mentioned above (the latter one) because Obi-Wan's fall is the start of Anakin's duel, make it a bit longer, and viola. The pause between Anakin's fall and the arival of Yoda is enough of a break. Plus, the display of Force powers adds to the break.
    In E3, I'm sure during the duel there'll be logical breaks for them to use.
    Maybe the ifght starts in one room leads into another and cut
    Cut back and they're fight in the other room, they wind up in the lava pit or whatever, and cut.
    Cut back and the duel is really raging, climax, something pivital happens, cut once more.
    Cut back to the final dramatic moment, send Anakin to his 'death' and finish the scene however.
    I only used rooms as an example. The logical cuts could be anything.
  7. Vonn

    Vonn Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jun 3, 2000
    Considering how AOTC is the only SW film to NOT intercut and considering everyone I've talked to in real life has said they thought the fight with Yoda was too short and the fight with Obi-wan/Anakin and Dooku was not nearly as good as Obi-wan/Qui-gon and Maul, I'm inclined to disagree with you 100% on this one.
  8. TheVioletBurns

    TheVioletBurns Jedi Master star 4

    May 27, 2002
    Meh, I don't really care either way, as long as it's well done.
  9. Luke_Clone

    Luke_Clone Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jun 15, 2002
    "ESB was good, but it too had intercutting at crucial times IMO."

    Wascally_Droid is right. Even ESB had some intercutting going. I don't want a lot of intercutting like in TPM or ROTJ... actually AOTC didn't have much intercutting either I think.

    Basically, if the intercutting is done in the style of ESB I will be happy. As long as the focus is on the duel. ;)
  10. Twink_Kee

    Twink_Kee Jedi Knight star 5

    Oct 1, 2001
    I think it would be fine if it's simply intercut with a Padme escape attempt.
  11. Mace Windy

    Mace Windy Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jul 3, 1999
    I too would like to see no intercutting during the final duel. I was thrilled while watching AOTC to discover the linear finale, and I am hoping for the same in Episode III.

    The intercutting can really take you out of the action if done anyway less than exception. If cuts are made at the wrong times, you become upset, disjointed, and untimately your caring for the characters and the situation suffers. In my opinion, there is no other moment in the saga (save maybe Luke/Vader/Palp in VI) as pivital and emotionally important as the Obi-Anakin duel.

    I have faith that it will deliever....

    :cool: Mace Windy,
    as windy as a hurricane, as unpredictable as a raincloud!

  12. Patches

    Patches Jedi Youngling star 3

    Mar 4, 2002
    I agree. It's one of the reasons I think the Battle of Yavin is still the best climax. If it is intercut, I hope that it is not excessive. It's difficult to become emotionally involved, then be forced to change to another scene in which you are emotionally detached.
  13. AdamBertocci

    AdamBertocci Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Feb 3, 2002
    I agree. No intercutting. Intercutting makes Rick McCallum cry.

    Rick McCallum loves you!
  14. merlin

    merlin Jedi Master star 4

    May 29, 1999
  15. That_Wascally_Droid

    That_Wascally_Droid Jedi Knight star 6

    Jul 29, 2001
    I'm beginning to see the need for bashers on the forums ;)
    Yes/I agree/absolutely does get tiring after a bit ;)

    So lemme ask ya this.
    What are the chances you think that Lucas wouldn't intercut it?
    The only times he doesn't is when everything else at that point in the film is pretty well taken care of by that point. I have a feeling by the time the duel takes place (and it'll most likely be a long one), there'll still be quite a bit to wrap up. Mainly everything that isn't wrapped up by that point or in the OT.
    There's gonna be intercutting, and that's not neccesarily a bad thing.
    It'd be like watching stuff explode for five minutes. Explosions are cool FX, but if it's alll you see for five minutes, it's just a jumble.
  16. Luke_Clone

    Luke_Clone Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jun 15, 2002
    "Yes/I agree/absolutely does get tiring after a bit"

    Well that is the last time I agree with you then Droid. ;)

    I don't think that there will be much wrapping up done during the duel. Anakin will be defeated in the duel, I think ;), and after that everything will come crashing down. The last bit of the film after the duel will be devoted to the "loose ends" that need to be tied up and just for good measure Vader appears at the very end of the film. At least that is how I see it happening so, no, I don't feel that the duel itself need be interrupted by anything else as those other things, which may or may not happen in Ep3, can be related to the audience after the duel has ended.
  17. markdil

    markdil Jedi Youngling star 2

    May 17, 2002
    Disagree 100%. Intercutting is necessary.

    Intercutting actually keeps the audience MORE emotionally involved. People have pretty short attention spans. By breaking up scenes you keep people on the edge of their seats. You also make people switch emotional gears more often, which keeps things fresher, and makes the scenes feel more exciting. Without intercutting, the emotional level of the scenes would gradually decrease through each scene. With intercutting, you keep the emotions at a frenzied level.
  18. Mace Windy

    Mace Windy Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jul 3, 1999
    I disagree. While people my age have a short attention span, most of the non-MTV crowd can be entertained by a seven minute, uncut, lightsaber duel. :p

    :cool: Mace Windy,
    gandolf the grey,, meet mace windy the purple!
  19. Vaderbait

    Vaderbait Jedi Knight star 6

    Sep 26, 2001
    I'm guessing there'll be two intercuts. Short ones.
  20. Luke_Clone

    Luke_Clone Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jun 15, 2002
    "I disagree. While people my age have a short attention span, most of the non-MTV crowd can be entertained by a seven minute, uncut, lightsaber duel."

    Actually I think he has a good point. Even Casablanca had intercutting in the final portion of the film which added to the excitement level of those last few scenes considerably. Rick, Lanslo (sp?), Elsa, Louis in one shot and then cut to Major Strausser racing through traffic in his car, then back to the 4 main characters again. Intercutting was also present in the Trench Run scene in ANH and without it Darth Vader would have magically appeared in his Tie and the audience would have forgotten about Leia and the Rebels on Yavin.

    Intercutting, in moderation, and if done well, won't hurt the final duel scene all that much... however I'm hoping that at that point intercutting won't be necessary. Everything else can occur after the saber fight as the falling action after the climax, which I suppose will occur during the saber fight.
  21. That_Wascally_Droid

    That_Wascally_Droid Jedi Knight star 6

    Jul 29, 2001
    Oh no L_C!
    See, the golden rule of mass agreement is it's ok so long as the mass agreement is going in the same direction as you ;)
    I don't think it's so much as an attention span thing (though for quite a bit, it is) as it is that any emotional scene dragged on too long can lose effect.
    It's like seeing a light flash at a strobing pace. At first it's all oo and ahhh. But then it's like. . . ok.
    There are ways he could do it without intercutting. But I don't think it's really in the Star Wars way of doing things.
  22. There_IS_no_Conflict

    There_IS_no_Conflict Jedi Youngling star 2

    Aug 6, 2001
    I also agree, no intercutting.. not just to keep us on the edge but also for another reason..
    GL has just become too predictable as a director in my opinion.. In the end of his films he just blenders it all in, cutting and then resuming from one battle to another, from air to ground and so on..
    And when something becomes predictable it looses its originality.. and in direction this goes 10 times.
    No intercutting. No standar starwars-end of the film formula, blender it all in and show everything to satisfy everyone.
    Thats how i see it
  23. SLAVE2

    SLAVE2 Jedi Knight star 5

    Apr 6, 2000
    Well the ESB duel was split into 3 parts. DotF before the fighters were split up, had 3 parts. ROTJ 3/2. ANH 2. AOTC 2.

    The only difference is the ESB parts were longer than the others and more issolated.
  24. That_Wascally_Droid

    That_Wascally_Droid Jedi Knight star 6

    Jul 29, 2001
    No Conflict brings up an interesting point.
    In a way, it is predictable. But this is because they are all the same set of movies. You really want them to match direction-wise. Feel the same which is what a lot of people claim TPM doesn't do.
    So if they're gonna feel the same it means intercuttings if there are multiple conflicts going on.
    While they don't have to be cookie-cutter, they should retain the same feel.
    That's only for a movie series though.
    For two different movies, the feels should definately be different and original.
  25. tabbafett

    tabbafett Jedi Youngling star 2

    Mar 16, 2001
    "GL has just become too predictable as a director in my opinion.. "

    Like wascally droid said, this is the same set of movies. And I don't know how many times George has said that he's writing all of these like a song, with hints of other parts in other parts.


    O.k. well i understand myself and I hope the rest of you do too. As for the intercutting, it just seems like there is so much ground to cover in this final episode that there will indeed be intercutting. But i dont think this means ALOT of intercutting, becuase like many have allready said, next to the redemption in VI this will be the most emotional moment in the entire saga.

    I said final episode. That sucks.
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