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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga The Final State of Lucas Canon

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by SlashMan, Dec 25, 2017.

  1. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 1, 2012
    @Alexrd If you prefer, discuss with me in a PM not in-thread. This is last warning for derailing threads for arguing with a moderator.
     
  2. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    He changed his mind more than he changed his flannelette shirts. TCW was said to be a lower level of canon. T-canon I believe they called it. Then later it was changed to movie level canon. Then of course there's this doozie:

    "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX." - Lucas, 2008. Then a few years later he's selling an outline of Ep VII. He tried to wriggle out of his previous statements by saying he won't be making it, so what he said was true. As we can see above though, it was a clear contradiction & change of mind.

    Then there's all of the details of canon that changed. As one small example, he flip flopped back & forth for years in interviews as to whether the Stormtroopers in the OT were clones, recruits or a combination. There are countless other examples.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  3. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 1, 2012
    That may be the quote of the year.
     
  4. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Awesome, & there's only 3 days left :cool:
     
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  5. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Lucas is not Licensing and Licensing is not Lucas.

    Please, be honest and don't cherry pick: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything."

    Which was true, at the time it was said. Then he thought of a story and developed it. That still has nothing to do with canon or changing his mind regarding what is and isn't canon.

    No, it isn't because that has nothing to do with what he considers canon (which is what's being discussed). To him, canon are only his works. Nothing else. That's Episodes I-VI and TCW. Had he made a sequel trilogy, those would have been included too, because he was involved. Still canon = his works.

    Details that are, again, irrelevant to what's being discussed. His works are still his works. And his works were what's canon to him.
     
  6. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Details, like facts matter.

    But isnt Lucs also free to change his mind after the fact, which @Darth Downunder has pointed out, he has done quite frequently.
     
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    A case could be made that TCW was a bit more "Lucas collaborating with others" than the movies were.

    At what point does "collaboration" become "not exactly Lucas's work anymore"?

    The Force Unleashed project might qualify as "someone else's work, but Lucas provided lots of input and guidance".

    Are there things intermediate between TFU and TCW in terms of being "Lucas's works"? The Ewoks movies maybe?
     
  8. Darth Weavile

    Darth Weavile Jedi Master star 3

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    Oct 10, 2017
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  9. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    This is a good read in regards to canon. http://canonwars.com/

    Downunder is quite right about Lucas being a frequent flip-flopper. Even people who worked and like him complained about how often he changes his mind. Such as Rick who called himself an oh-no man during the production of the PT when Lucas decided to change things by how it was going to be budgeted and Dave Filoni even stated that Lucas frequent mind changes often delayed production of episodes during production of TCW. Also what should be also noted is that Lucas does not have a high regard for continuity, as he once told Dave during TCW that "continuity is for wimps." It seems Lucas liked to have a wide and deep assortment to pick and choose from, such as filming lots of scenes that end up on the cutting room floor or cherry picking EU ideas. Basically a big idea buffet. He also seemed to very much disliked anything that limited his options, such as meddling studio executives, F/X limitations, EU writers and stories, and even his own continuity! TESB is the first and most famous case of Lucas changing his mind and breaking his own continuity by changing Vader's relationship with Luke.

    As far as Lucas canon goes, including TCW is kind of murky. Besides the far greater collaboration of other writers diluting the stew, you also had Dave who is a self admitted raging EU fanboy who had to "correct" Lucas ideas (in Dave's own words) by interjecting EU elements. Besides this, TCW also features pretty heavy adaptation decay, which means when you place a story from one form of media into another, it is often altered and change to fit the new medium, like a long novel is streamlined to fit a movie format. Star Wars was similar and the had major changes to adapt it from live action movie series into a weekly animated TV series.


    Something to keep in mind is that canon and continuity are not the same thing, but are often confused together. Canon is simply a degree of officialness or acceptance, not a degree how well it fits with other parts or how well it maintains continuity.
     
  10. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Yes, but not irrelevant ones that have nothing to do with the argument that was made: that Lucas changed his mind about canon a lot.

    Of course he is free to change his mind. Nobody is saying otherwise. It's not what was being discussed.
     
  11. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    I don't follow. Earlier in the run of TCW it wasn't classified as G-canon, or movie level canon. That only happened later. In other words, Lucas changed his mind.
    I don't see how adding that line makes a scrap of difference. It's still a clear & unambiguous changing of his mind. He went from "definitely" no Ep VII - ever, & that there was no further story to "here's my outline of Ep VII for you to use in a new movie - called Ep VII".
     
  12. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    That's a Lucasfilm Licensing classification, not George Lucas.

    No. TCW was always canon to Lucas.

    It makes all the difference because what he said was true when he said it. There was no Episode VII. There was no story. He didn't think of any. He later did, but not then. And it's still irrelevant because it has nothing to do with canon (which is what the argument was about).
     
  13. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Lucasfilm announced what was & wasn't canon. Lucasfilm spoke for Lucas on such matters. Personally he said many times that the movies were the one & only canon. He only declared TCW on the same level in the middle of its run. Therefore up until that point it wasn't officially canon on that same level. That's a fact. We can't speak for GL's thoughts on the matter prior to that.
    He didn't just say he had no intention of making Ep VII then. He said it wouldn't be made ever. Then he changed his mind. It's not complicated.
     
  14. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 1, 2012
    You need to provide evidence to support this. Both Darth Downunder and Slicer87 have provided evidence to the contrary.
     
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  15. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    This is why I usually don't consider the words coming out of Lucas' mouth as canon. And there are so many ways to explain his change.
    1. Marketing: Lucas is aware that the feeling of "that's it" for about a decade, then a sudden "here comes another" after people slowly all moved into the "maybe he's serious this time" mode creates a hype machine that will make at least the first of the new trilogy a financial juggernaut.
    2. Inspiration: He honestly means it. He's thought about it for decades and come up with nothing. Then one day he's in his car listening to music or something that inadvertently just creates a flood of inspiration.
    3. Money: He knew selling the franchise with a new trilogy in mind adds more to his sale price than just the rights alone.
    4. Employees: He's truly done and is happy to be retired from Star Wars. But he knows his LucasFilm Empire employees are the most financially secure when a Star Wars trilogy goes into production.

    Judging by what he has said and the quality of the current trilogy, I'd go with 3 and/or 4. If they could make the same amount of money touring "Star Wars on Ice", they probably would have just done that. The well is pretty dry on the Skywalker Saga.

    I find TCW series closer to Disney/Filoni than Lucas. There's Lucas in there, but he probably provided a leaner outline for the screenwriter, Filoni, to fill in than any of the original six movies. And I think that was made evident with Rebels.
     
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  16. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Sure, & I’m not questioning or criticising him for changing his mind. I’m glad he did. I’m making the point that if someone says a thing is never going to happen & then it does, they’ve changed their position. You can’t say “it was true when they said it”. No it wasn’t. It wasn’t true that they’d never do it - bcs they did.
     
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  17. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    What if a decade from now, Disney sells the franchise for $20 billion and the new owner decides only 1 to 6 are now canon. Is Lucas' statement now true?
     
  18. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    That raises a whole new question as to who determines what is Canon and what is not.
     
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  19. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    Pre-Disney scrapping of the EU to Legends, I tried to keep it straight even though I had already moved into reading only a book or two of SW a year around 2008. Once EU became Legends, I threw my hands up and just thought "it's whatever makes me happy."

    I've honestly tried to listen to audiobooks of the NuCanon stuff and I ALWAYS fall asleep. That's ok when you are reading, but with an audiobook, you have to figure out where you passed out.

    I switched over to reading the Making of JW Rinzler books. And that's something I don't normally do because ignorance is usually bliss when it comes to fiction and music bands.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
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  20. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 5, 2012
    Well the idea here is that the sale to Disney created a new continuity, which was reflected through the Legends rebranding and new set of canon stories. The way I see it, the idea of what's canon to Lucas is pretty finite as he is no longer involved in future Star Wars productions. I thought I'd try to get an idea of what that universe was in its final state at the time the series switched hands to Lucas.
     
  21. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    Are you looking more for words from Lucas' own mouth like an interview?
    Or something official that would have come more from a Lucas Company pre-buy out?
     
  22. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    No, Lucasfilm Licensing speaks for Lucasfilm Licensing. Not Lucas. Lucas didn't care about the EU. Licensing did. Lucas wasn't beholden to the EU. Licensing was. Lucas always made a distinction between his universe (the movies) and the universe of Licensing. Licensing pretended they were all part of the same universe.

    "This is Star Wars, and I don’t make a distinction between the [The Clone Wars] series and the films. It’s just a different format and a different delivery." - George Lucas, 2011
     
  23. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    That doesn't contradict what @Darth Downunder said. It actually supports it, since the statement you quoted was made in 2011, with the show starting in 2008.

     
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  24. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    So what if he said it in 2011? Did he ever say the opposite? No. He never said TCW wasn't canon before 2011, so there was no change of mind whatsoever about what's canon and what isn't.
     
  25. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    I think you are cherry picking selective facts. I dont think this ambiguous statement is conclusive, although it does some provide some wiggle room.