Arena The First Basketball Draft

Yeah, that was indeed a helluva dunk on ol' Timmy there. Bravo, Vince, bravo. Just out of curiosity, though, I went ahead and dug up when that particular dunk took place. Turns out it was in a game on 11/01/02.

OMG look here! I found the box score of that game!

Oh... oh dear. The Raptors lost that game by 19 points? Oh my. Well certainly Vince played an outstanding game if that dunk was any indication....

Oh dear. Looks like he scored 18 points, which isn't horrible... unless it's on 5-21 shooting. Then it's not very good. But surely he... oh, no, it looks like he didn't really contribute a whole lot elsewhere with only 3 boards, 2 assists and, well, okay, 2 steals. Aha! But surely getting dunked on like that means that Duncan had an awful game....

Oh... ohhhhh. While certainly not an A+ game by his standards, he did drop 22 points on them to go along with 15 boards and 3 blocked shots, leading his team to a blowout victory. Oh, but wait! SURELY that vicious dunk completely demoralized Timmy and sent him into a downward spiral of depression that totally ruined the rest of the season for him and his entire team....

Oh dear. Oh DEAR! Against all odds after such a brutal posterizing, Duncan somehow managed to pull it together and led his team to a 60 win season and the second of his four NBA championships (with easily the worst supporting cast he had on any of his title teams) and nabbed something called the Most Valuable... something award.

Yeah, but no, it was a great dunk.

I'm not even going to bother wth the Mullin one, but just the fact that he was in a Pacer uniform tells me all I need to know. He was either 35 or 36 years old when that happened. Faaaaaantastic, Vince!

Please, by all means, keep giving me fun things to tear apart. More stuff like this:

Carther is a way more versatile player though, and if Pippen plays him close he has the moves to juke him

That's great. I gotta get to work here soon, but that one's pure gold.

 

Move number #3(2:18) http://youtu.be/0ZlHUftYfC4
#9(0:17), #8(0:30) shows some moves and range, #4(1:34) shows some D which he was decent at. http://youtu.be/Ah4mqEiDxqM

Circus shot. Not actually a juke but still good. http://youtu.be/7SpM3HomGRI


Look, the point is this guy isn't called Half-Man, Half-Amazing for nothing. Does he have his best game everygame? No, no one does, but he is still a good player who shows he is not easy to defend and yes he has moves.

 

i guess i just really think you need a point guard in a 3 on 3 full court game. dominique might be able to bring the ball up the floor, but did he ever pass? none of these guys averaged more than 2.5 assists per game.

 

The fact that none of my guys were taught how to pass in b-ball school doesn't matter. I have Bobby Jones, a 10-time all D man. Which means he's stopping your whole team, by himself. And then he's guarding the others in the 2 on 2 match, and scoring on them when he doesn't have the ball, before he's gotten to the court, from in front of his desk while reading Dracula, trying to resolve the plothole of that 1 guy at the beginning of the book.

 

lol, don't you dare expose how silly this is.

 

Oh I absolutely will. It's ridiculous that that book is considered a classic with one of the most gaping plotholes I've ever seen in my life.

 

all that's impressive and stuff, but... pippen cut his teeth on michael jordan in practice. EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. and guess what? it was competitive because, you know, jordan doesn't go easy, ever. and pippen's team, the second stringers usually, WON some of the time. you know what that means? pippen was successful at stopping the most unstoppable guy in the NBA some of the time.

yes, carter is amazing. jordan he is not.

 

He dunked on Mutombo!

Pippen is a good defender, but Carter has more than enough talent to handle it. were not talking a player who can only drive either, Carter has range, and great range. Pippen has to respect him there. That leaves and opening for Carter to make his moves be it a long range 3 pointer, a jumper, a drving dunk, or one of his well known and often seen circus shots. Carter is also decent on defense and has a decent amount of assists. He is all around a more complete player than Pippen.

And if Pippen cut his teeth on Jordan in practice then what about Grant? Wouldn't Grant be doing much the same? Yet you ruled against him when I had him up here before.(of course that's if he actually practiced against Jordan, which of course I can't see that never happening.) And in the 3 man team game I think Phil factors in, and Phil knows Scottie.

Anyway, are you factoring in Kidd and Carter played together? Those two know each other on court.

 

what i'm saying is that pippen neutralizes carter. jordan was also a vastly better defender than carter, so i think if pippen can score on jordan he can score on carter. or on any of your team really. pippen was not, precisely, a slouch on offense himself you know.

basically what it comes down to me is this, on those two. pippen IS an all-time defender, and was first team all defense from 92-99. straight. carter is not an all time offensive person. he's very good. but he's not top fifty. he's not top seventy. and there is a pretty major difference between those people in the bottom twenty or so of the top one hundred, and the top twenty. pippen was a top twenty player, carter was not. i'm not saying carter won't score at all. but he will NOT be the difference maker in this game. period. because of that there is an advantage to the team with pippen, because you know, pippen could guard literally anyone on your team. they can rotate.

oh, and duncan's pretty much a top ten as well, you know. be kinda hard to beat those two. and the other side doesn't have that kind of talent going against the other two.

anyway, i'll try and do judgements this weekend.

 

Are fouls being factored in as well? Because there is no way Carter is not getting fouled a few times if he drives it.

Kidd also has to be factored into this game. He knows what to do with the ball and where to put it to make things happen, and can make things happen himself if need be. He is also 3rd all time in steals, so he can clearly guard his guy. And I think cohesion gives me the advantage because I have two guys who've played together and have that chemistry.


EDIT: A quick add-on for my current 2 on 2, Oakley averages for his career 9.5 TRB, and has averaged over 10.0 in his career before. With Kiki's 3.4 there will be a lot of second and possibly even third chance points, on top of Kiki's high FG and 3 PT. %.

 

We're talking about Vince here.

 

In the hope of fusing some life into this and keeping it from life support, make these my official votes, with one change: I'm going away from Kidd/Carter/Malone. Just don't trust Vince the more I think about it. Probably, in this type of setting, much better suited to a one-on-one type affair, and especially a first-to-21 type.

 

My team is better at speading the ball around though...

 

i'm sorry. i know i said i'd do this by the weekend, but i still hadn't decided on some of them, and had other things i ended up needing to do (such as commitments that i hadn't done anything with in longer than this). anyway, here's my votes.

Matchups

The East Coast Bias Division

Match 1

PointGiven: New York Counter Terrorists (a Spike Lee Joint) 1

Game 3: First team to 21 wins (halfcourt) ? John Stockton and David Robinson

Game 6: 24 minute game (fullcourt) - Glen Rice, Dennis Rodman, and Paul Pierce

more talent. that's what i see in this one. rodman is going to completely shut down one of the opposing team. and odds are he'd out rebound the entire team by himself, which is only going to cause sheed to get mad and that's never really a good thing when he does. no one on the other team has the outside shot that rice does, and not sure who on the other team can guard pierce. so yea.

vs 

DarthTunick: The L.A. Nicholsons 2

Game 3: First team to 21 wins (halfcourt) ? Kareem Abdul Jabbar & Steve Nash

yea... don't need to say much hear. good as robinson is, he doesn't stand a chance against kareem. while i'd take stockton over nash any day of the week, he isn't going to be able to do it on his own, and nash will still get his and a large number of assists.

Game 6: 24 minute game (fullcourt) - Deron Williams, Rasheed Wallace, Larry Nance 


Match 2

EmpireForever: The Enfeebled Potential of the Superannuated 3

Game 3: Two v Two Halfcourt (first to 21 wins) -- Kevin Garnett, Manu Ginobli

garnett is the swing factor here to me. he's the biggest man on the court, and arguably the most talented. he has a full three inches on haywood, and when you have the range and fielgoal percentage that garnett has, not to mention are better at hitting threes, there is going to be problems in guarding him. isiah sure as heck can't do it. garnett was also the better defender as well. and ginobli has proven over the course of his career that he can take it to some of the better players in the NBA during his run with the spurs. thomas will slow him down, but i see garnett more than picking up the slack. no one is touching garnett in this game.

Game 6: Three v Three Fullcourt (24 minute game) -- Billy Cunningham, Alex English, Maurice Cheeks

 vs 

New_York_Jedi: The Rucker Park All-Stars 0

Game 3: First team to 21 wins (halfcourt) ? Isiah Thomas and Spencer Haywood

Game 6: 24 minute game (fullcourt) - Oscar Robertson, Julius Erving, Dikembe Mutombo

yea... moving on...

Match 3

NightHunter319: Dan Gilbert's Wet Dream of A Team 2

Game 3: Two v Two Halfcourt: Hakeem Olajawon and Tracy McGrady

i think hakeem could take this by himself honestly. mcgrady's just insurance.
 
Game 6: Three v Three Fullcourt: Kevin Johnson, John Havlicek, Yao Ming 

vs 

JediGunship: Searching for a Clue 1

Game 3: Two v Two Halfcourt (first to 21 wins) - Dan Majerle, Ben Wallace 

Game 6: Three v Three Fullcourt (24 minute game) - Larry Bird, Elvin Hayes, Willis Reed  

another reasonably obvious one to me. no one is stopping larry bird, and yao has never been that impressive to me as a big man.

The West Coast Sun Division

Match 4

tom: the mercury metal heads 3

Game 3: Two v Two Halfcourt (first to 21 wins) - lebron james and artis gilmore

Game 6: Three v Three Fullcourt (24 minute game) - tony parker, mitch richmond and bill russell

bill russell is arguably the greatest defensive force in the history of the NBA. moses malone, good as he is, is going to have trouble scoring in this game. hell, if wilt chamberlain had trouble dealing with russell, most people in this draft are going to. and the man could score too. and tony parker, in his prime, is just one fast devil. no one could guard him when he first came into the league and HE figured that out. i just don't see bobby jones being capable of doing that. and nique can't win this one on his own.

 vs 

MandaloreYak: Atmosphe

 

My team is up for sale if someone wants it.

 

Getting ready to move and running short on time, but I'll put up judgements on anything they didn't agree on tomorrow. Assuming there are some, I haven't checked.

 

there are some.

 

Was coaching even considered in the 3 on 3? I was told coaching would be a factor, especially in the more team orientated sections of the matchups. 3 on 3 is what I would consider a more team orientated matchup, even the 2 on 2 full court I would think coaching may be slightly more invovled than the halfcourt, but certainly more so in the 3 on 3, would it not? So was that at all considered andif it wasn't, why?

 

it was, but what, precisely, is jackson going to really do here? he has no subs, and while he can diagram plays, and tell carter what pippen's defensive weaknesses are (which when i watched him play were damned few) you're assuming that carter, in the middle of a game, is going to remember them. i have seen time and time again people START doing something and then just stop. carter has been more guilty of that than most players i've watched. and then there's the fact that pippen is just so flaming good defensively it's not funny. really, what jackson would do is help with cohesion, but given that kidd and carter played together there really isn't all that much he's going to do to improve even that. to me, the talent level is too far apart, especially defensively. the best you have is kidd, and he isn't stopping scottie or duncan. those are really the two biggest problems on your team, and in my opinion their both better than anyone else in your trio, so i don't know what, exactly, they can do against a talent difference like that. i mean, you do realize that scottie guarded and slowed karl malone down don't you? and he's not physically even the same size as karl? and duncan is definitely better suited to doing that, but even if they do have to rotate, duncan and pippen can stop anyone on your team. carter going against duncan isn't going to be very much better than going against pippen. and carter does really stupid things sometimes, like stop driving. he's marginally in the top 100 of all time, and i'd personally question that when it comes to the mental aspect of the game. they're going against two people that are both in the top twenty all time, with mullin somewhere in the top fifty. talent difference is simply too great to be overcome.

 

Evern with Vince being able to jump over a 7'3" guy, and having the option to pass to Kidd on the range? Carter can pass the ball(and does have good career assist numbers since he isn't completely selfish with the ball) and Duncan/Pippen can't be on guard against Carter/Kidd, one would pressume Mullin has to be blocking on of those guys at any given time since it would leave Malone completely open if Mullin was on him.

 

mullin is a hall of famer, is a better shooter than kidd, and is not precisely a slouch on the defensive end of the floor either. but when the worst guy on your side is a top fifty all timer (or there abouts) and you have a guy whose not anywhere near even THAT as your worst on the other side, i'm sorry, talent just wins out to me. kidd is very good, but he's about equal to mullin. not as good on the offensive side of the ball, bit better on the defensive end. to me they're something of a wash, whereas you have a drastic advantage of pippen over carter, and an advantage, though not as great, of duncan over malone. oh, and mullin is two inches taller than kidd, which will make it a little bit easier for mullin to guard him.

kidd, in his physical prime, was not a terribly big offensive threat. he's become one a lot more of late, but even with a number of more seasons than mullin, he's still a thousand or so points behind him in total. and mullin has a full .100 over kidd in shooting percentage.

you have a well made group, but it just ended up hitting something that has more talent, which isn't going to happen often. most other trios i'd go your way, but that is just a very nasty group of pippen, duncan and mullin. if you'll note, inty went the same way, so i'm not alone.

 

Wait... Fo real?

 

Inty has picked against my guys in every matchup I think.

Kidd has more 3 pt. FG's though, as does Carter for that matter.

And Malone vs Duncan stats wise boils down to this:

Scoring: Malone averaged 25 points per game. Duncan 21.1.

Efficiency: Malone shot 51.6% from the floor and 74.2% from the line. Duncan?s respective numbers; 50.8% and 68.7%.

Reliability: Malone has fantastic work ethic and pretty good conditioning. He played in 99.3% of the Jazz possible games during his 18 year career in Utah . Duncan so far with San Antonio has only played in 94.5% of the possible games. Over an 82 game NBA season that means that Malone would play in about 4 more games than Duncan. 4 games amy not seem like much, but 4 games can also make all of the difference in the world. Of course in a 1 game thing this may be a bit irrevelevant I'm thinking as I type.

Longevity: His conditioning led him to be able to play a long career at a fairly high level. Duncan has a ways to go before the end, but wi;; he is still playing as effectively as Malone was when he was 39 and still contributed 11.1 wins (10th in the league) to the 2002-2003 Jazz team.

Front line help ? Subjective perhaps, but playing with the Greg Ostertags and Felton Spencers of the NBA didn?t help Malone quite as much as playing along side David Robinson(maybe throw Manu and Parker in there as well) helped Duncan.


Of course most of this is likely subjective as well, I'll admit.


I don't give up very easily if you haven't noticed.

 

i'm thinking about your match yak. it was the one i was the most hung up on, honestly, and i'm still not sure i went the right way on it. i'll decided completely when i put up the next match.

and i've noticed JM.

duncan's played better in crunch time though.

i don't really have time to go into this anymore. as you said, this is subjective, and it's also subject to me having watched everyone involved, other than mullin who was a better shooter than kidd overall as seen by greater points totals, and a fair amount higher shooting percentage as a whole. these are not opinions formed off of just stats or youtube clips, this is me having watched actual games and series with everyone involved, and developing my opinion during that time, when they were at their respective primes as well.

anyway, as i said, i have two plays i have to read by tomorrow, and a research paper i have to write over the weekend, an exam tomorrow, and sleep to get at some point.