ST The FIRST Jedi Temple

Actually, I´m fairly sure they are going to tell all that. They will have to to speak about

Spoiler

the Children of the Forest and the One-Eyed Raven when Bran spends weeks with them in their cave. And they are already giving hints about where the White Walkers come from (they are made from human babies).

They just haven't reached that point.

 

I would not underestimate how much KotOR may play into their plans. The game was hugely popular, almost universally loved and people still talk about it all the time.

 

Neither has the ST.

 

that makes sense. one of the restrictions is probably what stopped Kylo from being able to see his parents during training.

 

Exactly. ANH gave us a brief non-descript explanation of the force, a jedi mind trick, Luke tapping into something briefly and then later using this thing called the "force" to make a on in a billion shot to destroy the death star.

We had to wait 3 ******* years to get some more info on this mystical magic but it was the absolute draw for ESB. Still think back and remember Obi-Wan saying "the force will be with you always" after Luke made the shot and thinking to myself..."thats great Ben, but what the **** is it???

Leaving these bits out is what makes Star Wars what it is, awesome film making and JJ got that from ANH etc and focused on (with LK) reproducing that magic. It seems they have done a great job but will be interesting to see how the current youth handle not having all the answers the seek straight away. It was REALLY HARD in 77-83, i wonder if the current crop can cope LOL

 

I personally didn't want "the first jedi temple" being anything else but a ruin with symbolic significance- no ancient powers, treasures or anything just place where first jedi or their predecessors gathered to meditate and feel the Force.

Too bad it seems Tython is not going to be canon (at the moment) but it is still possible that it was one of the first jedi planets and thought to be their origin world until Luke discovered these even older jedi temples (I think that Luke visited other ruins as well since map has a marked journey in it- many waypoints instead of one planet, maybe he went through all these ancient jedi places to find the first one). It seems possible that knowledge of the first jedi is lost many times during the wars with the sith - so not even jedi during the Old Republic know where they actually originate from.

Mention of the Rakata Prime in the map also points that at least part of KOTOR-lore is still canon and they were (according to KOTOR and TOR) an ancient force-using species after all- who predate the Republic and even the jedi. And SWTOR in which Tython is considered jedi homeworld there is "flesh raiders" which are said to be of Rakatan origin- this all points to the direction that the origin of the jedi is somehow tied with the Rakata people. Maybe the first jedi were rakata and later they influenced other species such as humans etc. to found a new order of knights on Tython or something.

Rakata originate from Rakata Prime and many seemed to share ideals more similar to Sith than the jedi (being violent, greedy, slaving species that created the Empire). It may be that "the first jedi" were either minority of rakata or members of species enslaved by the Rakata that gathered on Ahch-To and formed a different view of the Force than majority of Rakata- the foundation of the jedi religion and the light side. Later more of these "jedi temples" were made to other planets including Tython (and maybe Coruscant where PT-temple is located) and these were in constant conflict with the dark siders- including sith of Korriban/Moraband- but all others who followed the dark side.

When Rakatan Infinite empire fell those lightsiders were known as jedi and they became protectors of the newly founded Republic. But their history was lost and they could only trace their history back to Tython thinking it would be the original place of the jedi. This misconception lived thousands of years until Luke then found some traces of the older jedi temples and went to look for them.

Ok total fanon- explanation how Ahch-To and Tython could co-exist in canon Besides whether or not all lightsiders are jedi is a matter of interpretation making it difficult to exactly say which were the first jedi exactly.

This is usual in real history since ideals like religions and philosophies develop slowly and there is room for interpretation in many matters. For example who was the first christian emperor of Rome? It is unknown whether or not Philip the Arab was a christian before Constantine the Great who is generally considered to be the first christian emperor. But then again professor in our university (I am history student btw) claims that Contantine's view of Christianity were so different than modern ones that he cannot be called christian.... It is difficult really in real life to find a truth in history that wouldn't depend on interpretation. There is facts and then there is different interpretetions of them and language itself makes some limits since all terms carry some meanings that can be interpreted differently.

So if it also difficult in SW-universe it only makes it more believable rather than being impossible for Tython and Anch-To to co-exist as separate planets both being tied to the origins of the jedi. But I am aware of that at the moment Tython is not canon. But worlds like Malanchor, Onderon, Taris, Nar Shaddaa, Korriban (Moraband) and Rakata Prime are canon and most are very similar to their depiction in KOTOR/TOR (some are only mentioned in canon though) so I see no reason why Tython would now need to go just because there is an older jedi temple on a different world.

 

I'm wanting it to be more about ancient knowledge and, what's a good word for it, perspective. For example, what were the original Jedi like, what were they all about, and how did they operate? You look at this, and you can then draw conclusions about where the subsequent generations might have gone wrong.

For example, if the Skellig Michael sight is meant to be the FJT, then it's in a really remote, isolated, hard to get to location. Contrast that with the Jedi in the PT, who's temple was on Curoscant, the capital of the Old Republic, and they were seemingly involved in the apparatus of government pretty frequently. That distinction could be very important going forward.

 

That's the reason I said I expect JJ to explain everything in the next movie.

Anyways, if they didn't intend to explain anything, I think it would have been better if they had played the sense of mystery a bit: Making other characters notice Rey's powers and wondering about them, throwing theories of their own...etc. As it is now, all I get is a sense of "This is just how it is. Move along".

But at this point we already have six movies, plus the TV series that still haven't been de-canonized. What they are doing now is showing stuff that contradicts those six movies and TV series without explaining it.

And anyways, it is my undestanding that the part were Luke suddenly switched off the targeting computer before shooting the proton missile using the Force because he was hearing voices in his head was the least favorite part of most critics of the first movie; it was seen as a flaw, not as a virtue. And that most people who liked ANH did it for the characters and the starships and the aliens and pseudo-sci-fi stuff, but were mostly neutral towards the Force stuff.

The Force didn't become cool until ESB. Before ESB it was that bit that seem out of place and could have been easily removed.

In TFA the Force is pivotal, but it is still left unexplained.

 

Perhaps, and I could accept it since the "will of The Force is something that cannot be completely known" is an idea that was present in the OT. But given that:

-The film has her state multiple times that she doesn't know how she's doing some of these things.
-Have others, both heroes and villains, question how she can do them as well.
-Kylo being clearly shocked but also intrigued by her abilities.
-Snoke's mention of "an awakening" not long after she gets involved in the main plot, and him wanting her brought to him IMMEDIATELY!
-The final duel.
-Etc.

Makes me think that there's some kind of explanation on it's way. It might not be a super-detailed, pseudo-scientific explanation like some people probably want, but there might be one nonetheless.

 

Some say that Constantine ONLY converted to Christianity because he discovered his mother was secretly a Christian.

 

I have heard theories that his mother Helena was a christian by birth (or at least knew a lot about some Christians and was interested in their faith) but then became Emperor's wife and needed to keep it more or less secret(it is not even know if they were officially married) since it would reveal her lowly status. Anyways not a topic of this thread but example of a hard historical question IRL

 

I just want to add 2 cents in here -- and that is any GoT references are irrelevant [for me] because I do not personally believe GRRM will ever successfully flesh out the over reach he has written regarding all the plot points. I honestly do not believe he will live long enough to finish the series.

 

Also of note is that Rakata Prime is now in the new canon. Just a point in a galactic map but it's presence there must mean something. Though just as I was writing this Pablo Hidalgo denied it. https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/679157923012984834

I had originally assumed that Snoke would be Rakatan but alas not the case, unless they do a Darth Bane and say that's what a Rakatan look like now,

I saw that too. Though I did speculate a link to the Star Forge I thought Luke would be trapped in Starkiller Base like the Jedi were trapped in the Star Forge. Right subject wrong aspect.

 

There were definitely some man-made structures on that island so yea, 100% certain that was the Jedi Temple. Perhaps on a side note, I wonder why Luke didn't sense Rey's presence....

Could there a force field of the Force emanating from that planet making it hard to detect (and hard to detect people in your vicinity)?

 

I was speaking about the TV series. The book has explained almost everything about the Children of the Forest and Bloodraven and Skinchanging already. And I'm fairly sure GRRM at least intends to explain what the White Walkers really are, he is very good at combining detailed exposition when it's necessary with mysteries best left untouched. He always gets that part right.

I sure hope he ends the books. It would be a tragedy if he doesn't. If he ends the books, he will be sitting next to Tolkien and Terry Pratchet as one of the three most influential Fantasy writers in all history... if not, he will be remembered just as that writer who couldn't complete his opus magna.

Constantine the Great was baptized only in his deathbed. Many people think he favoured christianism for political reasons only. Other people think that he tried to merge the cult to Sol Invictus and Christianism into a single state religion (and some say that he succeeded and that all forms of Christianism practiced today are a mix of Judaism and the cult of Sol Invictus),

Anyways, he didn't follow christian values. He was a nasty piece of work.

 

You lost me at the use of the word "critics"

 

That, and the fact that it is small, modest, and humble, whereas the temple on Coruscant is immense, elaborate, and glorified. It would probably never have occurred to the builders of the first temple to have giant statues, for example, or great friezes - but the Coruscant temple heaved with things like that.

What Luke may be doing, when measured against the overall picture of the Jedi Order that the saga has given us thus far, is going back to first principles, to a concept of Jedi principles untainted by a thousand generations of added baggage. He had thought to train students, but subsequent events - the fact that he too failed as a teacher - must have gave him to cause to question the effectiveness of the Jedi methods as they were taught to him - by Masters who were steeped in ways that had already been proven not to work. Very well, if the Jedi disciplines as they were taught to him weren't working, then what was needed was to reexamine those disciplines, beginning with where THEY began.

 

What makes you think Luke didn't detect her? Or doesn't detect much more than her.

I choose to believe he did -- and maybe that's why he doesn't look surprised to be found -- even more specifically by her. Seems well established that powerful Jedi can watch from afar those they choose to.

As for those of you who read the novel and said something about him being in a trance or coma or buried in sand... I say... Wha????

 

Yeah...he doesn't like sand...

 

It seems that Hidalgo only denies theories that Rakata Prime appears in the movie etc. not that it wouldn't possibly mean something (like it appearing in the upcoming movies). But it is clear that the planet in the end of the movie is not to be confused with Rakata Prime- it is Ahch-To- for some weird reason it doesn't appear in the DK map though... it also lacks places like Mustafar if I remember right. Anyway selection of the worlds in that map is weird indeed- most movie and TCW/Rebs worlds are there but not all of them and then this weird Rakata Prime..... just odd

 

Thats what i was thinking myself. If Luke were to rebuild a new jedi order tython is a world very intune with the force. Idk if it is that obvious though especially wirh all the secrecy surronding these films.

 

Strange then, how much of Prequel haters complain about the story being supposedly too ambiguous and not clear enough.

 

Since I posted that, it's been revealed that the planet is in fact called Ach-To. Tython being the Jedi homeworld is no longer canon.

 

Even though I have no history with TOR or DOTJ I still hope Tython/Ossus remain in canon as the Rome/Constantinople to Ach-To's Nazareth if that makes sense.

 

I loved the depiction of the first Jedi Temple in TFA. Ruins, subtle, isolated, old and real. Having a bunch of CGI pillars and stuff would have been the wrong choice. That said, I do hope we see more of the ruins in Ep 8, and Luke takes Rey into some underground cavern or chamber where he's been living on the island, and there we could get more of a glimpse at some relics or old Jedi architecture that's been preserved under ground.

The Art of TFA has some cool concepts for the first lightsabers (very "analog" looking with the crystal exposed), and it would be awesome to see one of those.