main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The First Order-Resistance Conflict

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Darth Chiznuk , Aug 10, 2017.

  1. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    I'll repeat.

    They were unknown to the Republic for most of their existence. The official Empire - the state - was officially ended at the end of the war, with remnants that broke were bound by the Concordance, and eventually withered away. Although the Concordance applied to the the First Order when they reappeared, they had secret holdings.

    What reasons would the Senate be given for such an investment - I mean such a station would appear to be useless on its own, unless it was a centralisation of power and terror?
     
  2. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    You realize that post WW2 Germany was occupied due to what happened after WW1, right?
    That's the whole point. They put strict measures onto Germany after WW1, some of which were way too harsh. The problem was, what they did was not strong enough to cripple Germany entirely, but way too strong to prevent outrage over the treatment in Germany. What happened after WW2 was a reaction to the peace after WW1. You can't take the experience of our world, where a second war happened due to how the outcome of the first war got handled, and compare that to Star Wars after its first war of that kind. The situation after the Empire got beaten is like the end of WW1, not the end of WW2.

    I also don't see this huge might the First Order is supposed to have assembled. Judging by TFA, they very much stayed away from challenging the Republic, or even taking on the resistance, because they didn't want to risk facing the Republican fleet. It's only when they used their secret weapon to destroy the core worlds of the Republic and with it the fleet, that they dared to maek a move to take over. You basically have a situation where the lack of any other combatant makes the rather small First Order appear bigger than it is. It doesn't take a ton of resources to take over control when there is no one left who could oppose you.

    The rise of Nazi Germany is actually a very reasonable comparison. And no, one cannot say "but the allies knew about it", because that wasn't the case at all. Later on, yes, but that was only after Germany had violated the terms for quite a while and had established the basis for what was to come. Only when the Nazis officially unveiled new organisations did France and Great Britain really notice. And once that happened they went for appeasement, in part because they couldn't really make a move against Germany using "the right for self-determination" after the Allies went all out on that one in and after WW1 for propaganda purposes, in part because they needed the time to re-arm themself. Chamberlain didn't agree to a German takeover of the Sudetenland because he thought Hitler was such a jolly fellow who only had peace in mind, he did so because there was zero support for war at that point, and the allies weren't equiped to fight one either.
     
  3. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Why is the galaxy demilitarized? It clearly wouldn't be after everything that has taken place.

    Just because the NR chose peace, those old fleets are still there. Just because they chose to disarm, or chose a non-militarized policy - those ships didn't just disappear. They didn't melt them down into commemorative civil war coins, or did they? Cleary the citizens of the galaxy who were scared of the galactically-dominating Empire still rose up and fought against them with almost nothing. And won. Its logical to assume that the winners would assume control of the losers assets. All those Imperials ships would be confiscated. The resources that the Empire used to create their galactic fleet would now be under the NR. The galaxy has been militarized for 60 years, it's been at war for 50 or so years, why is there suddenly no one who can defend themselves. You're trying to tell me that the explanation that after winning the war, every once of military is now gone.

    Certainly this would cause chaos, though, if the FO surprise destroyed the capital. But to also say that the FO is about to overtake the entire galaxy and has a fleet larger than the galactic dominated NR is absurd. There's a lot of galaxy out there. Their prime fear-inducing planet destroying weapon has been already destroyed. It doesn't explain how exactly a new military fleet, born from the supposed ashes of the Empire, with little to no resources or money are able to take over (and saying that they instantly had both of these things upon landing in the Unknown Regions is silly and also unrealistic. It would take decades just to establish those colonies and build those economic and resources systems from the ground up, never mind instantly building a copy Imperial fleet and stealing and training a child slave force) It doesn't make sense that the FO would be able to be at a scale to take over a galaxy of 10,000 planets so quickly. The Empire controlled the entire galaxy, and instilled fear using local governors, and yet their reach was almost everywhere. And that didn't deter people from fighting.

    Who didn't know? Cleary the weapon sellers on Canto Blight knew about the FO in advance. Certainly JD, and people like him, knew. And he seems to have no qualms about divulging this amazingly important information to anyone he immediately meets. Leia knew, right? The Resistance knew. You'd think that arms dealers suddenly getting insanely wealthy would cause some suspicion. Let's ignore the weapons for a moment. Again, how did the FO steal thousands and thousands and thousands of children to brainwash into being their new troopers and yet no one noticed this or cared? You'd think that 50,000 children going missing would raise some eyebrows. You'd think they'd want to know where they went.

    But yet, your explanation - or perhaps the movie's explanation / lack of explanation - is that they didn't...and it all makes sense'. I don't think it does at all.

    Leia: I have heard news reports that at least 50,000 children have been kidnapped from all over the galaxy in the past few months. This is concerning. We need to look into this.
    NR Leaders: Leia, you're crazy.
    Leia: No. Clearly these children are gone. Someone stole them. Someone might be building a slave force. We need to investigate this at once.
    NR Leaders: Leia, you're crazy.
    Leia: I've heard word from my agents on Canto Blight that a secret buyer in the Unknown Regions have been purchasing weapons on a unprecedented scale. You know, the Imperial Remnants went out that way.
    NR Leaders; Leia, you're crazy. The Imperials are long dead. We melted down every single ship or weapon that had helped us defeat them. We've demilitarized. They no longer are a problem. The galaxy is peaceful now.
    Leia: Let's at least investigate this. Clearly someone is making a lot of money and wants to inflict terror upon someone. We probably want to defend ourselves.
    NR Leaders; Leia, you're crazy.
    Leia: Also, I think my force sensitive son is being influenced by Snoke. (Snoke, who leads the First Order, who we don't actually even know exists yet. Whoops)
    NR Leaders: Force stuff again! Leia, you're so crazy.
    Leia: Snoke is pretty wealthy, and evil. Maybe he's involved here.
    NR Leaders: Snoke? I have no idea what you're talking about. Please leave us alone, we're so busy hanging up these Peace Anniversary banners all over the galaxy.

    As I read the assumptions and answers that people are coming up with (ones that aren't in the movie at all) to explain how this all makes supposedly sense, it begins to unravel even further. It just opens more questions. Snoke had money, he helped purchase the fleet. Oh? really. That seems like Snoke was a pretty wealthy person then. I would assume that making a fleet would cost untold trillions and trillions of space dollars. The Empire probably owned everything, or taxed the citizens to buy or make their fleet. But old Snoke, just puts the fleet on his Darkside MasterCard. Palpatine had the foresight and store a copy Imperial Fleet in the Unknown Regions, just in case, ready to pump out more ships and weapons. Come...on.....

    It would be one thing if the Imperial Remnant hid out for a few decades, scrapped together a new ship or two, stole or bought a few other, were secretly buying arms, got some soldiers to fight for them, and then surprise attacked the New Republic in small, but deadly ways, over and over again, causing fear to rise in the New Republic population. That could make sense. That would be scary. The bad guys they thought were gone, are now terrorizing them, on a small but deadly scale. They're so small that they can move anywhere, and attack.

    Instead we're given that the FO created a carbon copy Imperial fleet, only this time even bigger, with more powerful weapons, just decades after losing the war and having to start with absolutely nothing and are going to take over the galaxy in just a few weeks.

    The problem really becomes is that the filmmakers determined that in order to have drama, the winners of the galactic civil war still needed to be the underdogs, in a story where they should no long be in that position. If anything, the losers, the Imperials, who are still around or coming back, or were hiding, should be in the underdog role. You could still have those Imperials be deadly and fearsome, but to say they're more powerful and larger than the NR, or the Resistance, or they now have the means to take over so quickly, doesn't make sense. There's a reason why the filmmakers aren't filling in the blanks and telling us how that all happened on screen. Because they can't.

    Also...I'm not saying we can't enjoy these movies. Or to say you shouldn't. I'm just saying that the story we're given is pretty ludicrous and the explanations around the military drama doesn't make sense (and that's within a story about space magicians, laser swords, and aliens) We've all bought in to certain absurdities in these trilogies, but the explanations given in the current trilogy, and the plot set ups, are illogical even in any galaxy.

    /Cheers
     
    Shadao, CT-867-5309, Jango723 and 4 others like this.
  4. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    I am excited to see how many personnel and ships they had in total
     
    BlurryUFOs likes this.
  5. JDN21

    JDN21 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2004
    Firstly, you're making a false assumption. The measures placed on Germany after WW2 weren't a direct response to failures after WW1. They were a direct response to the situation after WW2 and the power shift that placed Europe in the middle of US/Soviet influence. And don't ignore my examples of Japan and Iraq. Regardless of the aftermath of WW1, the allies and Soviets were always going to occupy Germany following Victory in Europe.

    Secondly, the Galactic Civil War happened started around 19 years after the Clone Wars. The Civil War didn't happen in isolation - it was a result of the consequences of the Clone Wars. With that in mind, it is even more unbelievable than the Republic would provide such little oversight of potential threats.


    The fact the FO had Starkiller Base in the first place points to the massive resources they had. Then even after that was destroyed (including probably 10s of 1000s of FO lives at least), they still had more than enough forces to decimate the Resistance. Their Dreadnoughts were bigger than anything the Empire ever fielded (other than Death Stars).
     
    Shadao and DarkGingerJedi like this.
  6. Jozgar

    Jozgar Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    I think this discussion has officially degraded into some people just deciding that they prefer if it makes no sense, despite all the explanations being offered.

    Apparantly, the First Order can’t build a sizable military in 30 years even though the Republic did the same in 1/10 of the time. Please. Even given the secrecy of the First Order and their more limited resources, it isn’t that hard to believe.

    But go ahead and choose not to believe it, despite the logic to the contrary.
     
    DarthPhilosopher likes this.
  7. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    I suppose that's aimed at me? I love how because some people don't think the story makes sense, it's degrading the discussion about the FO vs NR Conflict here. I love how people who have questions about the logic in the movie, are somehow preferring that it makes no sense. I guess out of spite or bitterness. Trust me, I would love for it to make sense. I love Star Wars. I even love TFA. But TLJ forces me to accept story elements that seem absurd, and insisting that the movie's explanations are sound or well told, over and over again, doesn't cut it. I've personally been really detailed in my reasoning why I believe the dynamics don't make sense. Why its implausible that the FO even has a Starkiller base to begin with given what happens after ROTJ, or have somehow taken over the galaxy, or will do so in a few weeks time. I find it pretty amazing that somehow the First Order built up this huge army, all while the NR watched it happen and did nothing, yet at the same time, I'm told that the FO was secretive and the NR didn't know about them. I find the movie confusing, and contradictory at times. I've spelled that out consistently, and have done so respectively to all the posters, while asking questions for others to explain why it makes sense to them.

    Some have contributed to that discussion. But time and time again, the answers seem to boil down to "it makes sense dude, its in the movie."

    Shrugs. I guess I'll go elsewhere. Lest I degrade this discussion further.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
    Shadao, Jango723, MS1 and 2 others like this.
  8. Jozgar

    Jozgar Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    The problem isn’t that you aren’t presenting your thoughts reasonably, it’s that you aren’t listening to other people’s reasoning.

    It’s not contradictory. The First Order was a secret until less than a decade before the Force Awakens. At the time of the Leia’s resignation from the Senate, all anyone knew were rumors of an ex-Imperial fleet causing trouble in the Unknown Regions. Don’t underestimate how mysterious the Unknown Regions are- even settlers on the border only knew legends about the Chiss, one of the most powerful states in that region prior to the First Order.

    Later, when the First Order did reveal itself to the Galaxy, so much of its armament was kept hidden that the pacifists and collaborationists in the Senate could continue to blow off rumors of their true strength as fearmongering by old ex-military types.

    This all makes perfect sense, and has been explained many times.
     
    redxavier and DarthPhilosopher like this.
  9. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    They demilitarised because there was no threat apparent. That happens when entire galaxy is at peace with all apparent allies. Remember when the Old Republic had no military? It would actually be dangerous, given the only way they would see the Empire returning would be commandeer the Republic, is to have a mass military and various old ships lying around.

    And yes, even in the real world, we don't normally keep the enemies ships, especially when what I previously mentioned is true. They wouldn't just keep them - it's actually dangerous to keep heaps of mothballed ships in case of rebellion. They would recycle them as we do in our world.

    Hmmm, yes, I wonder why, after years of war, people don't want to fight again against insurmountable odds?

    How do they know there aren't more out there?

    They found resources... I mean it wasn't necessarily completely uncivilised.

    And it took years of struggle to get to fighting.

    For the better part of 30 years they were isolated an non-one knew.

    Most of this happens in the Unknown Regions. When it happened in the known galaxy, I'm sure it raised concerns, but they didn't realist the scale (which is why they supported the Resistance, and even they were shocked).
     
  10. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    The First Order seemed to keep the bulk of its forces in the uknown regions.
     
  11. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I don't think there's anything totally impossible about the First Order having that big of a logistical advantage given all the work they've done to try and set this up after TFA, which *was* clearly operating off a somewhat different set-up, though not radically so; the FO as a resurgent Empire is clearly a subplot there, it's just the sheer scale of the conventional forces on display in TLJ is about twice as large as you'd expect at maximum from the Unknown Regions-locked First Order we saw there, and, as I'll mention later, you'd expect the First Order to not pursue the small Resistance in such force if there's arguably far more valuable strategic targets out there that need to be secured at a priority well above Leia's tiny force.

    I think the issue is that it is almost laughably implausible that the First Order would have that advantage *and* not still face *significant* material opposition from other powers in the Galaxy, or that the sociological conditions the film tries to establish could make sense given all the work the story group did setting up the New Republic's "Paper Tiger" status. I mean, clearly, the Unknown Regions-locked First Order from TFA would be inadequate to so confidently hold the Galaxy as quickly as Johnson wanted; so we get the scenario wherein the First Order now has a public GFFA territory, and the New Republic gets reduced by having numerous systems not actually join it. But... c'mon, you're telling me that a Galaxy that has seen Alderaan blown up, numerous Imperial atrocities that we record in almost all the material we have about the Empire, and the horrific self-immolation of Operation Cinder isn't going to have significant planets and systems that won't re-arm in that paradigm when a bunch of their neighbors start publicly showcasing Imperial regalia, or that a Galaxy with decentralized authority won't see plenty of decent-sized security fleets that would pose a serious problem to Galactic domination?

    That's not how the social conscience works; even the WWII example doesn't really work, since, as pointed out by others, there was still a healthy buildup of military forces in response to Nazi Germany's rise, and if it weren't for the Ardennes Forrest gamble working out, that might have ended the war early. And that's not even taking into account how even a first-rate power like Germany still found itself incapable of launching a global offensive without years of seizing opposing countries; the First Order's looking at an exponential scale-up of that problem, as shown by the PT having Palpatine have to orchestrate a false-flag war for that buildup, and that was with good publicity among half the Galaxy.

    And if we're going to be charitable and agree that the FO could rearm to such an extent and have that logistical edge, then we're still faced with military actions in TLJ that do not make sense. Again, a handful of Resistance ships may be a potential threat as a nucleus for gathering opposition, but if you're going to Blitzkreig the Galaxy, they're honestly not your priority; seizing Coruscant, Kuat, other Core World's, and blockading those potential allies for the Resistance would be your goal. If two or three Star Destroyers can out-class the entire Resistance fleet, then that's what you spend. It's still the height of arrogance to assume that a Galaxy that just experienced 30 years of peace thanks to the defeat of an Empire won't lash out significantly to a resurgent group emerging from nowhere; even if we remove the virulent hatred you'd see towards Imperialism in the Galaxy (like, the USSR's hatred boner for Nazis type of virulence, considering the atrocities the Empire committed), we're still dealing with simple political inertia from the New Republic's hegemony and the idealism member world's would have for that.

    It's not that it's physically impossible for the First Order to have what it has and do what it does. It's that it's a laughably small view of the Galaxy and its denizens, one that paints almost everyone on both sides as being a bit too stupid for this Saga's general portrayal.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
    Shadao, CT-867-5309, MS1 and 2 others like this.
  12. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    I think people are overestimating the Republican ability to accurately estimate the First Order threat. For all we know their military build up was appropriate to their estimation of the First Order military capacity. It seems even the Resistance are shocked by their scale.

    As for why they hunted down the Resistance. It seems they were the primary military threat after the federal military.
     
  13. powerfulforce

    powerfulforce Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 16, 2005
    Why is that? Even in peace time and de-militarization it makes no sense to limit it down to ONE fleet and have the entire fleet or vast majority in one area. That other planets wouldn't have their own significant defenses in light of the possibility of a resurgent Empire just doesn't seem plausible. The only reason for this scenario is that the creators wanted to do another underdog story, as opposed to laying down the ground work for two powerful entities to face off. There should have been a counter attack from the rest of the surviving Republic planets and independent planets who do not want to be subjugated to the whims of a cruel and fascist dictatorship. That the galaxy gives up for what is essentially a terrorist group with fancy weapons just doesn't sit right.
     
  14. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    I think that this is where the lack of properly explaining the state of things politically and militarily in the Galaxy starts to become a problem.

    Also I was really hoping that we wouldn't get yet another "weak, corrupt, and short-sighted republic" storyline yet again. We already did that, why does it need to happen again?
     
    Shadao, MS1, godisawesome and 3 others like this.
  15. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011

    Because the republic was clearly decieved as to their size, and apparently thought one fleet with the planetary defense forces was enough. The First Order has secret holdings.
     
  16. powerfulforce

    powerfulforce Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 16, 2005
    I am sorry but that is still a terrible reason. There are literally thousands of inhabited star systems in their galaxy (I believe 20,000 were represented in the previous Republic). Even if the New Republic is smaller than the original Republic, having just ONE fleet in one system is quite absurd. That they wouldn't keep tabs on their enemies who had access to superior technology and have no qualms against committing genocide it really makes no sense to not maintain constant vigilance/surveillance with them. I get that in the supplementary materials it is better explained, but it still should have been put in the movies.
     
  17. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    Enjoying this.

    An observation that is at the structural level. There is a certain elephant in the room. It is of so many tons, and occupies so much of the visual field. The elephant in the room is that shareholders want dependable quarterly revenue, and they empirically have settled upon a reissue of the decidedly successful Empire and Rebellion product. Someone that is blind cannot see the elephant in the room. No one is saying that anyone is blind to the elephant in the room. The opposite is the case, however. The elephant in the room is so blindingly obvious that it covers up a great deal of good and interest that a broader swath of fans could participate in. Those who cannot take their eyes off the elephant in the room, because it is obvious, would be fantastically assisted by a surface that hides the elephant. It would be a curtain, a drape, a painter's dropcloth, even a Bantha costume. The films as they are do not provide a visual surface of greater obviousness than the elephant in the room. It is fundamentally impossible to mistake the elephant in the room, where, sufficiently merciful writing might have allowed the suspension of disbelief that the elephant in the room was 'really' a Bantha.

    I am not consciously aware of any backhanded tenor in this comment.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
  18. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011

    Why would they build more military assets then they think they need. Most systems probably think they are safe without one.

    They probably did keep them undler surveillance. But most of their assets existed far beyond whe the republic could gather intelligence from. Thus the inaccurate estimates.
     
  19. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    There are plenty of other reasons I can think of, like a mobile base of operations (exceeding the capacities of a Super Star Destroyer) with dozens of Star Destroyers stored in the equatorial ring for planetary blockades to deal with pirates, warlords or the like (note the deliberate spherical Death Star allusion of the Trade Federation blockade ships in the PT).

    Talking about investment, I think the construction costs of the Death Star(s) were peanuts compared to the costs of Starkiller Base. ;)
     
    Shadao, MS1 and DarkGingerJedi like this.
  20. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Yes but none of this is estbalished in the film. It's made by inference by their viewer. No different to the current situation.
     
  21. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    We haven't seen any Republic fleet in the movie have we? And if it even exists off screen it's apparently so mind-boggling small that it was over taken in a day or two, or just by the FO destroying the capital planets.

    But...What do you mean 'build'? The Republic doesn't have to build anything really. They still should have all the Rebel ships used to win the war in the first place. And, this is big, the spoils of war. By winning the civil war it stands to reason that they would control what ever Imperial fleet had managed to survive. That fleet would be there still. They didn't melt it down, right? They didn't let the Imperial Remnants keep all their star destroyers did they? Even if we assume that the Imperial Remnant was, let's say, 10% of what the full Empire was, and this tiny military faction now left to go find another home with any ships they had, that still leaves 90% of the rest of the Imperial fleet belonging to the winners. While the NR might chose a peace/treaty platform, or even demilitarize themselves, those resources still exist and are available to them pretty readily. Maybe at best, they moved the fleet to various areas where they might believe danger still exists. Or decommission them. And, again, even if they demilitarized themselves, that doesn't mean that they'd have no fleet or resources to defend themselves against a new or old enemy. In order to have peace, you need to be able to defend it. At the very least. Especially when you know that the evil bad guys who you spent decades fighting after they blew planets up, are now hiding.

    Meanwhile, somehow, the assumption is that the loosing Imperial Remnant slinked off to the unknown regions, where they instantly start rebuilding their Imperial fleet once again - somehow doing so in an area they're not familiar with, have no resources in, have no control over, have no money, have no bases or plants or refineries to do so. These regions are unknown, and yet, upon arriving the Imperial Remnant know exactly where to mine, build, set up shop, create shipyards, over take the local populations, etc, etc. In this time, they somehow manage to recreate the exact look and design of the Empire, down to the control knobs on the displays, the uniforms, the bottomless pits, everything. The Empire had a galaxy of resources to do so, the Imperial Remnants somehow do this, in some very small area of the galaxy that no one has really been to before. They do all of this, while out in the unknown regions, or by ordering them thru nefarious means in the Republic itself, without anyone ever getting wise to this. Amazing. Truly.

    I've directly responded multiple times to other's answers, point by point, in some cases. You're confusing 'listening' with agreement. Just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I'm not listening. I don't agree with the logic or reasoning or assumptions that it makes sense the the FO is able to do everything the movie says it can, within the time frame plotted, or the circumstances of the story.

    So 10 years prior to TFA, the NR confirms that the old imperial remnant is causing trouble once more. And no one, not one single person is alarmed - except for Leia and a few people who form the Resistance, who then start defending themselves in limited ways - but they're largely ignored by the NR.

    At that point, all anyone in the NR knew was that:
    • The former bad guys had fled off into the unknown regions.
    • The former bad guys had a history of being complete evil jerks.
    • The former bad guys were known or suspected to be secretly buying arms again. (Somehow, I suppose the NR let them keep all their money, right? Or maybe Snoke, or benefactors bought everything. Super Star Destroyers, weapons facilities, shipyards capable of cloning the Empire's ships, uniforms, etc etc. all on the cheap)
    • The former bad guys were causing trouble along the border.
    • The former bad guys are led by Snoke (Leia and others seem to know about how evil Snoke is) and now call themselves the First Order.
    • That somehow upwards of 50,000 or more children all over the galaxy, were disappearing, or being kidnapped and no one cared or asked why.
    • That the NR doesn't have any fleet, or at least not a very large one, not even enough to protect themselves against new threats, or 'Imperial Remnants that are causing trouble' because everyone - everyone - believes that its now peace time. That at best they have a few ships that fly around the capital worlds and nothing really else. They've demilitarized completely, learning nothing from 60+ years of war because they're tired of fighting. Despite the fact that they should literally own all the old Rebel ships, and at least some of the old Empire fleet - all at their disposal.
    • That Leai's son at some point had defected to their side and was dressing like Darth Vader, along with a few of Luke's other students who had fallen to the dark side. .
    • That the NR still has no real protection from the Jedi, leaving a completely defenseless galaxy ripe for takeover.
    And upon realizing all of this, not one single person in the NR was alarmed or wanted to prepare in any way, just in case. That they were okay with Leia's small (smaller than the old Rebels) hush, hush, band of Resistance fighters who set off to protect those border regions. Either the story is absurd, or for the story to even make some sense, every single character has to be absolutely stupid.

    I'll say this again. I'm okay with the secret. I'm okay with the NR not knowing the exact size or capabilities of the FO. I'm even okay with the FO secretly buying up weapons or having a few agents in the NR senate. That all makes sense. I think the story of small band of former Imperials, laying in secret, smuggling whatever weapons that they could afford, and constantly attacking the behemoth of the NR would be a great tale. That would make sense, and be a perfectly natural flow of story from the OT to the ST. But instead we're given that the NR/Resistance are the underdogs, again/still, have no real fleet, have no real ability to fight, won't fight, and are up against the First Order who carbon-copies the Empire's fleet while supposedly hiding out in new territory.

    What doesn't makes any sense comes down to:
    • The losers of the civil war, after fleeing to the UR, somehow have built a fleet that is equal in size and power - if not more so - to the Empire, while hiding out in new unexplored territory. Somehow this is done in under 25 years, with the help of supposedly rich Snoke or small companies funneling finances to them. That's a lot of finances to ignore.
    • This happens while the NR, remarkably, confusingly, stupidly, does absolutely nothing to prepare to stop any of this, despite knowing that the FO exists, knowing that it's led by evil Snoke, and enforced by Darth Vader 2.0, and having the resources on hand to do so before it's much too late.
    • That when the FO does in fact make it's first real attack, it takes out the entire NR government, because again, they remarkably, confusingly, stupidly, set their entire government on 5 worlds, all next to each other. They built a new form of democracy, and did nothing whatsoever to protect it, and within a day, in one single strike, are eradicated. Incredibly, that for a bunch of guys who hate evil centralized governments, and the dangers it imposes, they immediately set to build their new democracy in a very centralized way. Whatever fleet they had, was destroyed as well.
    • The NR is completed decimated, despite the fact the the galaxy has 10s of thousands of worlds within it. Somehow destroying 5 worlds, despite all the other worlds around, means the NR is gone.
    • The very next day, the Resistance, who should have a galaxy of ships to use at their disposal, is shown as being down to a small handful of ships and by the end of the movie, and are left with 12 or so people aboard the Falcon.
    • That after the destruction of the NR capital, the rest of the galaxy is scared to the point that they cannot, or will not, help. Not a single person, not a single ship, wants to defend the NR, the new government that they spent their lives fighting for. That somehow they're all scared and tired of fighting. Despite the fact the the FO's main fear-inducing, planet destroying weapon is destroyed in the process.
    • That apparently losing the Starkiller base, had absolutely no real effect on the FO abilities. That implies that the FO is so big in size that they can lose entire base planets, much like the Empire could survive losing theirs.
    • That according to the scroll text itself, "The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy." Rey tells us that they will control the galaxy in a few weeks. Maybe Rey is over-estimating, but this would still imply that their fleet is so immense that it can invade and take over the galaxy within that time, and overtake any local populations or uprisings. The Empire existed as a natural growth of the Republic, who had to stifle uprisings. Invasion of the galaxy is a way more complicated. Somehow, the FO built and hid this size a fleet, for 25 years with no one ever noticing.
    • That they apparently have a fleet of slaves, which to do what the FO does in the story, would indicate that they have stolen probably 50,000 children from all over the galaxy, and yet again, no one cared, wondered why, or where they went. That because they stole them as children, for a good majority of their time in the UR, the FO would have to wait while these children grew up before they would even remotely be effective. This probably implies that they stole adults as well, at least, that is if they planned on having workforce to build this new fleet within that time. Stealing adults is probably harder than stealing children. I could imagine that in and of itself would take time. Again, no wonders or cares where these people went. And it never once leads to anyone guessing that maybe the FO is up to no good.
    Over and over, I've heard that the FO built a galaxy-conquering fleet, in secret, in less than 25 years, while in the UR after losing the civil war, and fleeing the NR. That's the explanation I'm told to accept and that is somehow makes sense. I've explained how unlikely and unrealistic even just that is and how the overall conflict of the FO vs the Resistance doesn't make sense. Maybe if these movies took place 300 years after ROTJ, or maybe if the FO was really small and just terrorized the huge NR over and over again. That wold be one thing. There's part of this movie I enjoy, but the dynamics of the actual conflict are confusing, largely untold, overly complicated, nonsensical, illogical, magical, and baffling, and seeing posters have to, essentially, resort to stitching in personal assumptions together that are never hinted to in the movies, or upon what's written in expended novels, comics, etc. so that the story does makes sense, tells me the movie has failed at creating a sensical, believable story.
     
    Shadao, CT-867-5309, MS1 and 2 others like this.
  22. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    It's briefly in TFA. And destroyed.

    I don't know how many times I have to say that people don't keep enemy ships for 30 years when they think they don't need them. You don't defend the peace with more ships than thought needed.

    A) The Unknown Regions are half the galaxy.
    B) They could have found civilisation (as is suggested in the Visual Dictionary)

    Dude they prepared. They underestimated the enemy.
     
  23. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    The entire fleet is destroyed in one go. Seems perfectly logical for a group who had won the civil war and controlled the galactic space to only have 1 small fleet, standing around in one small spot ready to be attacked. I know that if I had a fleet of ships, and I knew there was potential enemy threat looming out in space somewhere, causing trouble along the border, ready to attack at any moment, I'd move them all super close to one another, all around 1 planet, deem it peace time, and hope for the best.

    It really makes sense. Apparently the NR thinks 1 fleet can protect the peace in an entire galaxy. The NR doesn't need anymore than that, and there's no reason why we'd every think about using the imperial ships we just confiscated, just in case the worst happens. Logically, the NR then moved their entire fleet of ships around their capital planet and did nothing else. They knew the FO was out there, hiding, and causing problems along the border, they new arms were being sold and purchased secretly, they probably knew 50K children were being kidnapped for some reason, so it makes perfect logical sense to assume that after wining the greatest civil war in their history, they'd only have a small handful of defensive ships to protect them. The rest of the galaxy thought it was peace time, felt completely safe, and no one ever dared to think that maybe they'd need at least some defense against the unknown, more than a single fleet sitting around the capital.. They logically thought that the FO was probably like 1-2 ships, tops, probably a tie-fighter or two, and small destroyer at most, and led by handful of old Imperial officers. I mean, the NR has a single fleet all in 1 small location. They got this covered.

    A: The Unknown Regions are now half of the galaxy? Wait, it makes sense now. When Darth Vader offered Luke the chance to rule the galaxy at his side, he meant to rule this side of the galaxy, and not the other side. Luke was confused for a half moment, but Vader was very specific. The Galactic Empire was really the Half-Galactic Empire. The Galactic Senate was really the Half-Galactic Senate. The outer rim, was really the outer half-rim. The Unknown "Regions" should really just be called the Other Half of the Galaxy. Regions kind of denotes vaguely smaller area, but your'e right. It makes sense. Half it is!

    B: Civilization was possibly there already. Right. Which also was probably destroyed in a day or so. If nothing else, the FO is amazingly efficient at this stuff. Makes sense.

    Wait...before....(you or maybe someone else) said that the FO did this all in secret and that the NR was unaware of it at all. So it's now they knew about them, but they underestimated how large they were. But it makes sense either way, right. They underestimated the size and scale of the FO by a factor of 100,000,000, and so they 'prepared' by thinking they needed a few ships, perhaps just 1 small fleet, all located in one spot, to protect themselves against some lame Imperial Remnant who even though had a full resume of being evil and destroying planets and hating democracy, they had it covered, they were prepared. Besides the Resistance, was there to help them...err...Resist. It was peace-time, and the Imperials vanished, so no worries. Meanwhile the FO amazingly returns with an even bigger military than the Empire ever had, copied in every way, only bigger, built in secret while hiding out in the Unknown Half-Galaxy all waiting to ambush and invade the Known Half-Galaxy, and kill the entire NR and their prepared single fleet in one blast. The next day, they destroyed the Resistance, which didn't Resist at all, which itself only had like 7 ships based from one single planet. Despite losing their planet weapon in the process, they now control, or reign, over the entire galaxy (both halves) and will over take all 10,0000 worlds in a few weeks. Logically.

    I think I get it now. The story makes sense when you make the New Republic and all our heroes, alarmingly, astoundingly, bafflingly, incapably, stupid ... who have spent the last 30 years with their fingers in their ears. And you make the First Order and all the bad guys, incredibly, amazingly, magically, capably, wise ... who have spent the last 30 years doing everything so effeciently right so there can be a story to tell at all.
     
    Shadao and CT-867-5309 like this.
  24. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Honest question, why are you here? You've made it abundantly clear that you're determined to make this a problem and have rejected pretty much all explanations provided to you. That you cannot fathom a story where the good guys become complacent after winning a war and that the bad guys slide away into hiding and have now come back speaks volumes. Was this a big problem in Lord of the Rings and Battlestar Galactica? You speak about logic alot, but there's not a whole lot of logic in your argument, rather it's just your omnscient audience eye retrospectively picking holes.
     
    Jozgar and DarthPhilosopher like this.
  25. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Complaining about this is like watching a film about the end of WW1 and then confused about the beginning of WW2. It's not told yet. And I'm not saying the conflicts are similar or that there are analogies so don't try.

    They have a single fleet protecting their capital and many smaller planetary defense forces. Together they make up the defence of the New Republic. I don't think they thought the FO would be able to destroy it with some new hyperspace weapon - it was probably wise to have the capital defended.

    Yeah I hate it in Roman movies the say they 'rule the world'... I mean honestly.... it's the known galaxy. It's more like 1/3 to be specific.

    Commandeered.

    I really wish I didn't have to reply to the same points again and again.

    The Imperial Navy flees. In the Unknown Regions they build a new fleet and Starkiller Base by commandeering civilisations and peoples. They are hidden.

    The galaxy is at peace. The Republic demilitarises.

    Around 20 YEARS later the First Order agents occupy a wing of Republic politics.

    The First Order politicians secede with a small portion of Republic territory.

    This new territory links up with the secret territory where the hidden fleet and Starkiller Base reside. The Republic is unaware extent of their military capacity.

    Leia is suspicious forms the Resistance. The Republic is in denial, calls her a warmonger.

    Cold War begins between the Resistance-Republic and the First Order. The Republic are deceived as to the capacity of the First Order because much of their military is hidden. They only build up the military the extent they deem necessary.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
    redxavier likes this.