The flow of Anakin's character from TPM to AOTC

Do you know who writes that stuff in the StarWars.com? It's fans, it's not George Lucas.

The SW.com is made by LFL you do know that right?

Know on to this:

openmind: Ani is right. Basing on the movie, it was Anakin's first assignment on his own. Thus, he couldn't escape earlier from his Jedi training and work with Obi Wan to save his mother.

Later Anakin blames Obi Wan for holding him back, which of course is incorrect of Anakin to think so. Obi Wan follows the rules "we will do as the Council has intructed".

Speaking of the "too old" bit, if you see the Younglings, they seem to be even younger than Anakin from TPM.

That's pretty much how I see it.

 

Ani: that's pretty much how I see it

You're welcome.

RS: But If the jedi prevented ANakin from freeing his mom then it IS their fault.

Maybe that could be the next step.

But at this point, I believe Anakin looks for an avenue to blame someone and that someone happens to be Obi Wan, and who else than one who he is directly subservient to.

Later on he knows he?s been wrong especially being a Jedi ?Im a Jedi??

Anyway, scenes later, in the course of the movie, Padme falls, Anakin wants to help her and Obi Wan tells him ?you will be expelled from the Jedi order, we have job to do?.

Again it?s the Jedi ways that lay the law. Anakin is reminded. But I think if Padme were to die then, without receiving help, Anakin may have taken that ?next step?. Luckily he thinks better of it, with honest difficulty and bites his lip.

With regards to Yoda's reaction to save Anakin and Obi Wan, granted may not have been the right move, but I believe Yoda has now realized then there's something in the bigger picture, than just stopping Dooku. Considering what Windu said earlier "remember Obi Wan, if the prophecy is true, your apprentice is the only one who can bring balance " - not verbatim, sorry. It was better to save Anakin than to stop Dooku.

And the reason for that is that before Yoda's confrontation with Dooku, the droid army and the TF were retreating. The battle had been "won". So in the bigger picture the Darkside of the Force had taken over proceedings, therefore, Anakin?s survival was integral. Yoda can only hope.

Let?s not forget Dooku?s statement ?The Force is with us, my Master?.

Yoda stipulates that "the Darkside has fallen". Therefore, I feel Yoda couldn?t be more closer to the truth.

So, matters are going to get worse, no doubt. A situation that cannot be helped.

 

Me:He was with Padme on Naboo for a couple of days. Had he left to save his mother a couple of days earlier....

Ani:"He was on his first solo mission. No Obi-wan, no other Jedi master just him a Jedi in training. "

He'd been on this solo mission for at least 2 days when he decided to go and find Shmi. Had he decided to try and find her a day earlier he could've have saved her.

g

 

Just to clarify, I said "IF" the jedi prevented anakin from contacting his mother then they are to blame.

Whether they did or not, as you mentioned, is never addressed in the movies.

"I'm not being purposefully dense, I promise. This is for real. I dont see what examples you have given that supports the following propositions;

1, Jedi are taken as infants
2. Jedi are not allowed to contact their families
3. Jedi are never allowed to see their parents.
4. Jedi can never love and have close loving relationships.

What I've seen you give examples of or what I myself have seen in the movies is the following:
1. Jedi should not be trained over the age of 8 (some age that is never mentioned)
2. Jedi are not allowed to form attachements.
3. Jedi must request permission to travel and for other sundry non duty related activities (something like that since Padme's one line is very ambiguous).
4. Jedi must live in the temple (not sure but it's the closest I could come up with for Anakin's line "or be with the one you love").
5. Jedi love unconditionally and have compassion for all.
6. Jedi have close relationships with their masters that closely resemble a parent/child bond
7. Jedi hurt when a loved one dies.
8. Jedi fight for the ones they love.
9. Jedi get angry, laugh, cry, rant and rave and make mistakes "

I'm in total agreement with you hanbaby.


"On 2nd thought no were just going to have to agree to disagee here ok."

What a copout! You do this every time Ani. This is not an agree to disagree situation. the info is either in the movie or it isn't, opinion never enters into it. if you want to prove your case then post some lines that varify the questions that hanbaby posted above. If the info is not in the movie, then you are wrong and thats the end of it. opinions, agreeing to disagree are not relevant. You pick these fights all the time, but you don't seem to have any inclination of what debating is, or any interest in doing it. You simply disagree stubbornly then respond in vague muddled ways that are often so hard to follow that by the end its impossible to tell what we were debating in the first place. If you like the movie thats fine, there are plenty of discussion of praise for AOTC, but over the years you have continually sought out the heated debates and jumped head first into them.


"The SW.com is made by LFL you do know that right? "

Yes, but the people who run it, who post the info are not GL. They are just SW fans who happen to have jobs working for LFL. Paul Ens, one of the head guys over there who runs the hyperspace content and other key elements of SW.com use to be part of TF.n. The databank entries are created mostly by him and Pablo. Fans who have smartly turned their hobby into their job (and bravo to them!). They are given a lot of leeway to fill in the gaps of info that are not in the movies. For example, Dooku's homeworld is listed as Serenno. But if in ep3 (this is not a spoiler just a random made up example) if GL wanted to say Dooku's homeworld is called Corbothos, then that would be offical, and SW.com databank would just change the info.

Why can they do this? because the info isn't cannon to begin with.

When TPM came out it said that Ki Adi Mundi had 9 wives and several kids, then Ep2 came out and GL decided that Jedi couldn't marry or have kids.

See what I mean?

 

"And the reason for that is that before Yoda's confrontation with Dooku, the droid army and the TF were retreating. The battle had been "won"."

I don't know how you (or Yoda for that matter) see them as winning the battle.

the seperatist wanted to deploy their starfleet for galactic invasion. The clones and Yoda destroyed one of the TF ships, amongst dozens. The others escaped and deployed for galactic invasion as planned.

how was the republic winning at that point? Why does Yoda say "well done commander" whent he seperatist had succeeded in doing exactly what the jedi and clones were trying to stop them from doing?

 

He can't just do what ever he want's and Obi-wan and the rest of the master made sure of that until he went on his first mission. Which at that point with out the other Jedi masters he was able to go back to Tatooine with out the Jedi knowing.

You seem to have missed my point. In all likelihood, Anakin is not allowed to contact Padme or Shmi... even though that is strictly an interpretation. My point was that even though he's not ALLOWED to contact his loved ones, that doesn't mean that he COULDN'T. The fact is, we never see any evidence of an attempt at escape. Anakin is therefore WILLINGLY not contacting his mother or Padme which means the attachment isn't strong at all.

Furthermore, we actually do see Anakin STEALING a podracer thing in Coruscant... he's the
'GREATEST STARPILOT IN THE GALAXY'... you're telling me that not only does this wild and reckless Anakin meekly accept that he can't see or talk to his beloved mum (but is perfectly okay with breaking other rules where he sees fit) but that he couldn't escape from the Jedi... not to mention that if Anakin thought his skills were superior to many other jedi he wouldn't just sneek out at night. Why does he 'fear' the Jedi if he's stronger than most of them?

Why am I meant to believe that an arrogant character with little regard for rules would obey the one rule that forbids him what he supposedly wants most?

The answer is clearly that he doesn't actually hold a very strong attachment to Shmi. His attachment is to POWER, and power alone. That's what makes him turn to the Dark Side, as every other Sith has ever done...

No Obi-wan, no other Jedi master just him a Jedi in training.

There is no evidence for this at all in the movies.... please cite specific examples if you disagree.

attachment
n 1: a feeling of affection for a person or an institution

Thanks for the help... your definition has aided our arguments.

Firstly, a 'feeling of affection' is not 'falling in love'. The former is more open-ended, one that would include friendships. So this is contradictive to the de facto situation with Jedi.

Secondly, we are now to believe that ALL Jedi are therefore ATTACHED to the Jedi Order (an institution). Which would also prove contrary to your conclusion. C'est vrai, n'est pas?

If the Jedi don't have a problem with these two aspects of attachment on a de facto level, then why wouldn't Anakin be allowed to contact his mother? (or any Jedi for that matter)



I have another query: if The Force is genetic, and Jedi aren't allowed to have children, then why didn't the Jedi die out 900 years ago?

Unless of course, George Lucas approves of Jedi going around and impregnating women...


EDIT

If attachments are 'forbidden', then what is the Master/Padawan relationship?

 

There is no evidence for this at all in the movies.... please cite specific examples if you disagree.

Erm maybe if you put what dan had said in context you'd have got what he meant. I suggest you look back at what he was replying to and what he said

Why do I feel like calling you a word beginning with the letter "I"?

 

BTW redxavier, your sig is hilarious.


"You seem to have missed my point. In all likelihood, Anakin is not allowed to contact Padme or Shmi... even though that is strictly an interpretation. My point was that even though he's not ALLOWED to contact his loved ones, that doesn't mean that he COULDN'T."

Exactly. Infact to assume that he couldn;t given all the high tech gizmos and holograms we see is absurd.

"The fact is, we never see any evidence of an attempt at escape. Anakin is therefore WILLINGLY not contacting his mother or Padme which means the attachment isn't strong at all."

Agreed. Further more I find it odd that Padme and Anakin have never run into each other in ten years, what with them both being so cozy with the chancellor.

"Furthermore, we actually do see Anakin STEALING a podracer thing in Coruscant... he's the
'GREATEST STARPILOT IN THE GALAXY'... you're telling me that not only does this wild and reckless Anakin meekly accept that he can't see or talk to his beloved mum (but is perfectly okay with breaking other rules where he sees fit) but that he couldn't escape from the Jedi... not to mention that if Anakin thought his skills were superior to many other jedi he wouldn't just sneek out at night. Why does he 'fear' the Jedi if he's stronger than most of them?"

Good question. It would of been fun to see Anakin sneeking out of the temple at night to go rendevous with Padme or whoever. Or to call his mom.

"Why am I meant to believe that an arrogant character with little regard for rules would obey the one rule that forbids him what he supposedly wants most?"

Also a good question.

"The answer is clearly that he doesn't actually hold a very strong attachment to Shmi."

Yep, or its because GL shot his first draft, and impotant details like that were overlooked.

"His attachment is to POWER, and power alone. That's what makes him turn to the Dark Side, as every other Sith has ever done..."

works for me.

"No Obi-wan, no other Jedi master just him a Jedi in training.

There is no evidence for this at all in the movies.... please cite specific examples if you disagree."

ditto

"Firstly, a 'feeling of affection' is not 'falling in love'. The former is more open-ended, one that would include friendships. So this is contradictive to the de facto situation with Jedi.

Secondly, we are now to believe that ALL Jedi are therefore ATTACHED to the Jedi Order (an institution). Which would also prove contrary to your conclusion. C'est vrai, n'est pas?"

yep

"If the Jedi don't have a problem with these two aspects of attachment on a de facto level, then why wouldn't Anakin be allowed to contact his mother? (or any Jedi for that matter)"

Yet another good point.

"I have another query: if The Force is genetic, and Jedi aren't allowed to have children, then why didn't the Jedi die out 900 years ago?"

You're on a roll today.

"Unless of course, George Lucas approves of Jedi going around and impregnating women..."

Well Qui-gon did ask Shmi who the father of Anakin was. Further evidence that this whole "jedi are against marriage" thing was thought up for the first time with AotC.

"If attachments are 'forbidden', then what is the Master/Padawan relationship?"

If all of these questions recieve quality answers, or are answered at all I will be extremely surprised.

 

redxavier

Why am I meant to believe that an arrogant character with little regard for rules would obey the one rule that forbids him what he supposedly wants most?
That sums it up.

I have another query: if The Force is genetic, and Jedi aren't allowed to have children, then why didn't the Jedi die out 900 years ago?
There's no strict evidence in the movies it's genetic. The Force is a sort of energy field, with some extras (like it has will) which people can sense, utilize, and communicate with through symbionts, however it requires a great number of those symbionts and/or a great amount of training. That's all we know. We aren't given any clue about how the number of those symbionts is determined, it certainly can be genetic, but not necessarily or not exclusively.

 

but according to TPM its bioligical. And we have seen that it is passed down from parent to child.

 

This is not an agree to disagree situation. the info is either in the movie or it isn't, opinion never enters into it.

Yes it does. You don't agree with me I don't agree with you. What just because you don't see something means it's not there for others?



He'd been on this solo mission for at least 2 days when he decided to go and find Shmi. Had he decided to try and find her a day earlier he could've have saved her.

Nope he could not have done that.

You simply disagree stubbornly then respond in vague muddled ways that are often so hard to follow that by the end its impossible to tell what we were debating in the first place. If you like the movie thats fine, there are plenty of discussion of praise for AOTC, but over the years you have continually sought out the heated debates and jumped head first into them.

If you don't like my posts then don't replay to them. But to say that just because you don't see something in the movie that is wrong. Well sorry to break it to you. But there are a lot of people that did see what you did not. You don't agree with us. We don't agree with you accpect that.


he's the 'GREATEST STARPILOT IN THE GALAXY'...

Where is that line at in A New Hope. Obi-wan said he was a Great Pilot in ANH. He never said anything about Starpilot until ROTJ. So when Obi-wan says he was a great pilot just like you Luke. He meant pilot.

but according to TPM its bioligical.

Where is that in TPM. And no using th midi's will not help here. Because the midis are not the force. They never have been and never well be the force.

 

I think the problem here is that Anidanami's read the novelisations...


Erm maybe if you put what dan had said in context you'd have got what he meant. I suggest you look back at what he was replying to and what he said

I've been reading all the posts in this thread so enlighten me with your stunning wisdom.

Why do I feel like calling you a word beginning with the letter "I"?

Why would I care? I remember you well from last year... which just goes to show how the 'I' word gets around huh?

A flame for a flame... which makes us even. But really, if you're not going to contribute to the discussion JKBurtola then you're trolling. That was your first post here, and it was just an attack on me.

If all of these questions recieve quality answers, or are answered at all I will be extremely surprised.

Thanks for your support Rebel Scumb. I too would be surprised if these questions were answered. I'm tempted to say 'that's game, set and match!' but that would just be juvenile.


EDIT-

Where is that line at in A New Hope. Obi-wan said he was a Great Pilot in ANH. He never said anything about Starpilot until ROTJ. So when Obi-wan says he was a great pilot just like you Luke. He meant pilot.

Can you rephrase this, I'm having trouble understanding what it is you're saying.

How does the relevance of where that line is said in the OT bring to bear on my point?

 

If I was slightly more mature I be able to see clearly that you have indeed won, and just accept that that is the victory right there. But if I was more mature I wouldn't be in a SW forum

"Yes it does."

No it doesn't. That is like saying that in your opinion 2 + 2 does not equal 4.

"What just because you don't see something means it's not there for others?"

Well if its there why don't you just tell us where and then we will see it?

But you won't, you'll just worm your way out of answering.

"--He'd been on this solo mission for at least 2 days when he decided to go and find Shmi. Had he decided to try and find her a day earlier he could've have saved her.--"

Nope he could not have done that.[/i]

Why not? Obi-wan wasn't there to stop him, so why could Anakin not have left 2 days earlier?? Instead of just saying "he can't" actually give an answer.

"But to say that just because you don't see something in the movie that is wrong."

First of all, this isn't even a complete sentence. Second of all, that's not what I'm doing. You say the movie tells us that he can or can't do these things. I don't know of any place where it does. So show us! Prove your point, finish what you start for a change.

"Well sorry to break it to you. But there are a lot of people that did see what you did not."

So then you should have no trouble quoting the specific lines.

"You don't agree with us. We don't agree with you accpect that."

No. What you are doing meets my definition of trolling. You pick fights, but you don;t have any intention of making a case, you just disagree with people to cause trouble.

"Where is that line at in A New Hope. Obi-wan said he was a Great Pilot in ANH. He never said anything about Starpilot until ROTJ. So when Obi-wan says he was a great pilot just like you Luke. He meant pilot."

In ANH, Ben says "he was the best starpilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become a good pilot yourself"

Luke smiles

Ben:" and he was a good friend"

"Where is that in TPM. And no using th midi's will not help here."

Why not? Thats what he means. If having a strong connection with the force comes from a high midi count (which it does according to TPM) and the midis are bilogical microbes inside our cells, then it is biological.

"Because the midis are not the force. They never have been and never well be the force."

No one said they are, your arguing apples and oranges here.

Your TV is not the TV signal, the TV signal is still there whether you have a TV or not, but you'll never be able to see the TV signal without one.

TV= midis
TV signal = the force

but in relevance to this discussion it still proves the point. Midis are obviously passed down from parent to child, so why would the jedi prohibit marriage and having children??

 

So then you should have no trouble quoting the specific lines.

I have I have quoti line after line after line. You just don't agree with me. How many times do I have to quoit the same line?

Well if its there why don't you just tell us where and then we will see it?

I have I have used all five movies. I have put lines in from TESB, I have used ROTJ, ANH, TPM, and AOTC. I have used the OSW site. I have used the screen play. I have used so many things it's not even funny. Yet you still say I'm wrong openmind, Durwood, SkottASkywalker and many other have used many of the same things. Yet we are still someone how all wrong.

 

I have I have quoti line after line after line. You just don't agree with me. How many times do I have to quoit the same line?

Bear in mind that it is your interpretation of the lines (as well as your reading of the novels) that influences your conclusion.

All this sounds very familiar. I remember 'interpreting' ObiWan's clear cut comments about Anakin from the OT... but they were all wrong! Now I'm supposed to believe an interpretation (however good) gleaned from dialogue that is both vague and contradictory to what we are shown in the movies?

 

"Why do I feel like calling you a word beginning with the letter "I"?"

Notice that once again its the gushers, not the bashers who when faced with the prospect of having to prove their side of the argument, give up and resort to personal attacks and pety insults. And you wonder why more gushers get banned then bashers.

 

Come on guys, give it a rest already. The man has done his best to defend and explain his beliefs of the events in question. I agree with what he has been saying throughout this thread. I guess that now means I am wrong too huh guys? Debate is fine but it is not worth a debate if you are going to just disregrad anything that this man says. So give it a rest and move on. But I know you will not because you are the type of person who just loves to disagree with what everyone says. This basher and gusher talk is jusy nonsense.

 

All this sounds very familiar. I remember 'interpreting' ObiWan's clear cut comments about Anakin from the OT... but they were all wrong! Now I'm supposed to believe an interpretation (however good) gleaned from dialogue that is both vague and contradictory to what we are shown in the movies?

How is it contradictory when there are people that have seen those things and can see so those things?

If you don't agree that's fine. But that does not mean that ever one who see's this is wrong. Is openmind wrong because he does not see what you see? I tought that's what having a different opinion was all about.

 

But we're not. Its a debate, argument. counter arguement. etc etc

Don't bother trying to play Ani as a charity case, she's not. This happens all the time. This is clearly a thread critising an aspect of the movie. If people who like the movie want to post here and disprove the critisism, fine. But they have to prove their point.

"I have I have quoti line after line after line. You just don't agree with me. How many times do I have to quoit the same line?"

You quoted lines, then counter arguements were made, disproving quite affectively why these lines do not PROVE what you are trying to show. The onus is no on you to either find holes in their logic, and prove it. Or to present new evidence to support your own logic.

Thats how this works, back and forth. You just keep repeating the same thing over and over again after its been disproved.


"I have I have used all five movies. I have put lines in from TESB, I have used ROTJ, ANH, TPM, and AOTC. I have used the OSW site. I have used the screen play. I have used so many things it's not even funny. Yet you still say I'm wrong openmind, Durwood, SkottASkywalker and many other have used many of the same things. Yet we are still someone how all wrong."

Where in the movies is it shown that Anakin was not able to go see his mom?

"All this sounds very familiar. I remember 'interpreting' ObiWan's clear cut comments about Anakin from the OT... but they were all wrong! Now I'm supposed to believe an interpretation (however good) gleaned from dialogue that is both vague and contradictory to what we are shown in the movies?"

Its the double standard. We have to imagine to fill in the plot holes and gaps of the PT, but we get slammed for doing just that for 20 years.

 

"How is it contradictory when there are people that have seen those things and can see so those things?

If you don't agree that's fine. But that does not mean that ever one who see's this is wrong. Is openmind wrong because he does not see what you see? I tought that's what having a different opinion was all about."

Because certain things are facts, not opinions.

I could argue that Anakin's favorite food is the soup he had on the refugee ship. And then I could say its in the movie, it proves it.

But where are the facts to back that up?

Conversely I could say that Mace windu did not behead Jango, but clearly he did. No amount of opinion or arguing is going to change the fact that mace chopped off Jango's head.

The characters have dialogue, they either say something or they don't. Sometimes the full meaning of what they say can be called into question, but the fact that they did or did not say it cannot.

 

The debate isn't about what you can see, but about what you can prove...

 

This happens all the time. This is clearly a thread critising an aspect of the movie. If people who like the movie want to post here and disprove the critisism, fine. But they have to prove their point.

We have we have made post after post with lines and info. You just don't agree. So agree to a disagree. Because it will not matter what any of us post it will some how be made up.

You quoted lines, then counter arguements were made, disproving quite affectively why these lines do not PROVE what you are trying to show. The onus is no on you to either find holes in their logic, and prove it. Or to present new evidence to support your own logic.

I have used all five movies. I have back up ever thing I have said I have had other postes back up things to. You just don't agree that does not make what I have said wrong.

Thats how this works, back and forth. You just keep repeating the same thing over and over again after its been disproved.

It's not been disproved. You don't agree with what has been said.

The debate isn't about what you can see, but about what you can prove...

I have done that. And then I get told that I made everthing up or that it comes from the EU.


Here:

Padme: It must be difficult having sworn your life to the Jedi...not being able to visit the places you like...

Anakin is not allowed to go back to Tatooine becaue they are not able to visit the places they like.

or do the things you like...

He can't go see his mother because that is against the Jedi code. That is something he would like to do.

Anakin:Or be with the people I love.

That being his mother and Padme.

Padme: Are you allowed to love? I thought that was forbidden for a Jedi.


Anakin: Attachment is forbidden.
Attachment to what to who? To those he loves.

Possession is forbidden.

He can not just have what ever he wants

Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi life, so you might say
we're encouraged to love.

Note he says what he defines Compassion to be.

But: Compassion
n 1: a deep awareness of and sympathy for another's suffering
[syn: compassionateness]
2: the humane quality of understanding the suffering of others
and wanting to do something about it [syn: pity]


That's what compassion is. What Anakin defines it as is wrong. When he said Compassion that is compassion for others. Who are hurt, dieing, in need of help and so on. That's what Compassion is. It is not the same thing as love. He defines it the way he does so that Padme will think that it is ok for them to fall in love.

 

then humour me Ani, where is the line in the movie that shows that Anakin COULD NOT go see, or contact his mother in the ten years between TPM and AOTC?

Here is a perfect example of you not proving your point:


RX said:

"He'd been on this solo mission for at least 2 days when he decided to go and find Shmi. Had he decided to try and find her a day earlier he could've have saved her."

Your response was:

"Nope he could not have done that."


Why not????? What would be stopping Anakin from going??? How can you say that he could not? WHat are you basing this on???? What was stopping Anakin those first two days on Naboo that was gone on the third day???


"The debate isn't about what you can see, but about what you can prove..."

exactly.

 

I've looked over the thread Anidanami... and as far as I can see the only lines you've posted have been Anakin and Padme's conversation on the Refugee Ship, which I might add, you've just been repeating.

Certainly you've used NO lines from the OT.

That's what this WHOLE debate has really been about. Separating the facts from the interpretations, assumptions and outside knowledge.

 

but according to TPM its bioligical. And we have seen that it is passed down from parent to child.

Well, i admit these two strongly suggest genetics, but i've already seen strong suggestions in SW which turned out to be, well, not very accurate.
After all the Force has a will, so theoretically it can be strong with whoever it wants (=high midi-count, i guess), it even can impregnate a woman. I never thought that "the Force is strong with our family" means genetic inheritance before the midis, and since nowhere is explicitly stated that it does, i have no reason to change my view on it.