The flow of Anakin's character from TPM to AOTC

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by SLR, Oct 22, 2003.

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  1. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    Red Xavier, you wanted to know what Anidanami had posted (since you "claimed" to have read all the posts you could of read it yourself but meh)

    He was with Padme on Naboo for a couple of days. Had he left to save his mother a couple of days earlier....

    He was on his first solo mission. No Obi-wan, no other Jedi master just him a Jedi in training


    and this what you said (since you may need to be reminded):

    No Obi-wan, no other Jedi master just him a Jedi in training

    There is no evidence for this at all in the movies.... please cite specific examples if you disagree.


    As you can see, you took the dan's words out of context to apply a different meaning to them just so you could make yourself look right.
  2. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Why not????? What would be stopping Anakin from going??? How can you say that he could not? WHat are you basing this on???? What was stopping Anakin those first two days on Naboo that was gone on the third day???

    The fact that he was on a mission. Would you just up and leave a mission like he does?

    Anakin should have stayed on his mission on Naboo. He should have stay on Tatooine when Mace told him to stay where he was. But Anakin did not.

    Those were both really big mistakes on his part.

    He choose to go after his mother over a mission that was for the great good of the galaxy. If he would have stayed on Naboo he woudl not have done what he did.

    Then there's Obi-wan's line: "Stay on Naboo, do not do anything without first checking in with me or the Council.:

    Meaning he was not allowed to leave Naboo.
  3. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    fair enough shaakrider, I wouldn;'t disagree with that assessment.

    But it does make you wonder why Qui-gon asked Shmi who was Anakin's father?

    I have a strong suspcion that the no marriage no kids no attachments thing was not thought of until GL wrote AotC.


    "I have done that. And then I get told that I made everthing up or that it comes from the EU.


    Here:

    Padme: It must be difficult having sworn your life to the Jedi...not being able to visit the places you like...

    Anakin is not allowed to go back to Tatooine becaue they are not able to visit the places they like.

    or do the things you like...

    He can't go see his mother because that is against the Jedi code. That is something he would like to do."



    Okay now we are getting somewhere.

    thThe counter arguement is this:

    Anakin has shown an affinity for disobeying the rules of the Jedi whenever it suits him. So if he really cares about his mom, and is worried about her, why would he not BREAK THESE RULES and go see her, or at the very least call her?

    So now you have to provide new info to counter that.


    "The fact that he was on a mission. Would you just up and leave a mission like he does?"

    This isn't about what we would do, this is about what HE did. You say he couldn't leave on days one and two because he was on a mission, but he was still on that same mission on day three, and he did leave.

    "Anakin should have stayed on his mission on Naboo. He should have stay on Tatooine when Mace told him to stay where he was. But Anakin did not."

    But we're not talking about what Anakin Should or shouldn't do. Your changing the topic.

    In your own response you show two examples of Anakin breaking Jedi orders and rules to do what he wants. So why then would he not go and see Shmi when he had the chance as soon as he was off on his own??

    "Those were both really big mistakes on his part."

    You're derailing the topic, this isn't what we're talking about.

    "He choose to go after his mother over a mission that was for the great good of the galaxy. If he would have stayed on Naboo he woudl not have done what he did."

    Just to clarify, what this basically says is: If Anakin had stayed on Naboo then he would not have left Naboo.

    Genius!

    "Then there's Obi-wan's line: "Stay on Naboo, do not do anything without first checking in with me or the Council.

    Meaning he was not allowed to leave Naboo."


    Exactly!!! But Anakin broke the rules, so how can you argue that he would obey them other times, but disobey them then???

    Do you even know what we are debating?
  4. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    Anakin has shown an affinity for disobeying the rules of the Jedi whenever it suits him. So if he really cares about his mom, and is worried about her, why would he not BREAK THESE RULES and go see her, or at the very least call her?

    Notice he only breaks the rules when he is on his own.
    With Obi-Wan over his shoulder he is unable to do this and give into his own needs.
  5. ShaakRider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    star 2
    Anidanami
    You seem confuse the lines from the movie with your interpretation of them.

    not being able to visit the places you like...

    Anakin is not allowed to go back to Tatooine becaue they are not able to visit the places they like.


    That can be said basically amy monastic order, or boarding school, etc, but monks and students still are allowed to contact their families or even go home if there's something great trouble. So the conclusion you make, doesn't really follow the lines you quote.

    I think noone is trying to say you're wrong seeing the movies that way, but that what you claim to be in the movie, are really just possible interpretations of what is in the movie. As far as i'm concerned, thats all that everyone trying to say.
  6. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Anakin has shown an affinity for disobeying the rules of the Jedi whenever it suits him. So if he really cares about his mom, and is worried about her, why would he not BREAK THESE RULES and go see her, or at the very least call her?

    He does not break any of the rules up until that point because he was not having nightmares about his mother. He does not break with rules. Because he is training with Obi-wan for ten years, and going on missions with him.

    Naboo was his first really mission on his own all he had to do was stay on Naboo. And he blew that big time. Samething when Mace told him to stay where he and Padme were at. He blew that to.

    But until that point he had Obi-wan there on his missions and if not on a mission there were the rest of the masters around.

    But we're not talking about what Anakin Should or shouldn't do. Your changing the topic.


    You're derailing the topic, this isn't what we're talking about.


    Stop accusing me of something I'm not doing. [face_plain]



  7. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    I'm accusing you of something you ARE doing. and do in many threads.

    "Notice he only breaks the rules when he is on his own.
    With Obi-Wan over his shoulder he is unable to do this and give into his own needs."


    This has already been addressed. He was on Naboo for at least two days living it up with Padme, with Obi-wan nowhere in sight. He could have just as easily have ditched padme then and gone to Tatooine as soon as he got to Naboo. But he didn't.

    "He does not break any of the rules up until that point because he was not having nightmares about his mother."

    Anakin in Padme's apartment: I don't sleep well anymore

    Obi-wan: Because of your mother?

    Anakin: I don't know why I keep dreaming about her.


    There was also a deleted scene on the refugee ship where anakin has a nightmare there as well. Its not canon but it still shows that Anakin was having nightmares about his mom waaaaay before he got to Naboo.

    "He does not break with rules. Because he is training with Obi-wan for ten years, and going on missions with him."

    You don't know that. Nowhere is it said that Anakin has never broken the rules in those ten years. Anad Obi-wan comments that Anakin has become arrogant, so its quite possible he has many times. He disobeys Obi-wan several times during the speeder chase, and also has a secret friendship with palpatine.

    "Naboo was his first really mission on his own all he had to do was stay on Naboo. And he blew that big time. Samething when Mace told him to stay where he and Padme were at. He blew that to."

    Your changing the topic again.

    "But until that point he had Obi-wan there on his missions and if not on a mission there were the rest of the masters around."

    But not once he got to Naboo. He could of left right away (breaking the rules) but he didn't. He choose to stay. Why?

    The point were trying to make is that the Jedi did not keep anakin from going to see his mom, he just never bothered to go see her because he didn't want to for whatever reason.

  8. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    There was also a deleted scene on the refugee ship where anakin has a nightmare there as well. Its not canon but it still shows that Anakin was having nightmares about his mom waaaaay before he got to Naboo.

    Funny but when I treid to use something from SW.com I was told that I could not. [face_plain]
  9. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    There's no need to accuse someone of derailing a thread or discussion. If you feel something's wrong, just contact a moderator.
  10. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    This has already been addressed. He was on Naboo for at least two days living it up with Padme, with Obi-wan nowhere in sight. He could have just as easily have ditched padme then and gone to Tatooine as soon as he got to Naboo. But he didn't.

    But its the severity of the nightmare he has on Naboo that forces him to break the rules. And thats after he was "living it up" with Padme.

  11. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    The point were trying to make is that the Jedi did not keep anakin from going to see his mom, he just never bothered to go see her because he didn't want to for whatever reason.

    I guess I will use the OSW know:

    All connection to previous family life is lost.

    By Anakin joining the Jedi he was giving up being able to see his mother.
  12. ShaakRider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    star 2
    Since according to Cliegg Shmi was abducted about a month before they went to Tatooine, it would make sense if Anakin's nightmares began not long after that. It would mean about three weeks before AOTC, but of course it's absolutely speculation.
  13. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    JKBurtola - I stand corrected. Took that comment completely out of context!

    I did have a long-winded counterpost to Anidanami's proof but to be honest I really can't be bothered with this anymore. We'll still debating issues that were raised on the first two or three pages of the thread. It's just a seemingly endless cycle of two sides repeating themselves.

    But I will say this though, I thought you had lines from all 5 movies....?

    The central issue of the thread is the inconsistency of Anakin's character. What I am arguing now is that the love shown towards his mother in AOTC isn't as strong as that shown in TPM. And that their separation has nothing to do with why Anakin is an arrogant prick in AOTC (or perhaps, I should stay for clarity, the beginning of AOTC).



    And no offense, Anidanami, but you keep posting things that aren't really related to the topic. Like:

    That's what compassion is. What Anakin defines it as is wrong. When he said Compassion that is compassion for others. Who are hurt, dieing, in need of help and so on. That's what Compassion is. It is not the same thing as love. He defines it the way he does so that Padme will think that it is ok for them to fall in love.

  14. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Funny but when I treid to use something from SW.com I was told that I could not."

    First of all, I said straight up that it was not canon.

    Secondly, a scene from the movie written and directed by George Lucas, that he happen to cut out is a bit different then something written on a website (offical or not) by someone other then GL. But no its not canon.

    third, it doesn't change the fact that my otehr quote shows Anakin was having nightmares before they left for Naboo, and infact while they are on Naboo, Padme says "you had ANOTHER nightmare last night" refering to the deleted scene.



    "There's no need to accuse someone of derailing a thread or discussion. If you feel something's wrong, just contact a moderator."

    thanks. I shall in the future.


    "But its the severity of the nightmare he has on Naboo that forces him to break the rules. And thats after he was "living it up" with Padme."

    Anakin was not FORCED to go to Tatooine, he made a choice. Secondly, his activities with padme on Naboo prior to him leaving would also be "breaking Jedi rules" according to what you guys say.


    "I guess I will use the OSW know:"

    1)I don't know why your bothering, its not canon and has no more baring then a piece of fanfiction

    2) the word is now not know.

    "All connection to previous family life is lost.

    By Anakin joining the Jedi he was giving up being able to see his mother."


    Where in the movies does it say that? If its as important as you say then it should be in the movie, you shouldn't have to go to the OS. What do fans who don;t have the internet do?

    "Since according to Cliegg Shmi was abducted about a month before they went to Tatooine, it would make sense if Anakin's nightmares began not long after that. It would mean about three weeks before AOTC, but of course it's absolutely speculation."

    But intelligent speculation that makes a lot of sense.


    "The central issue of the thread is the inconsistency of Anakin's character. What I am arguing now is that the love shown towards his mother in AOTC isn't as strong as that shown in TPM. And that their separation has nothing to do with why Anakin is an arrogant prick in AOTC (or perhaps, I should stay for clarity, the beginning of AOTC)."

    agreed.

    "And no offense, Anidanami, but you keep posting things that aren't really related to the topic. Like:

    That's what compassion is. What Anakin defines it as is wrong. When he said Compassion that is compassion for others. Who are hurt, dieing, in need of help and so on. That's what Compassion is. It is not the same thing as love. He defines it the way he does so that Padme will think that it is ok for them to fall in love."


    yep

  15. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Anakin was not FORCED to go to Tatooine, he made a choice. Secondly, his activities with padme on Naboo prior to him leaving would also be "breaking Jedi rules" according to what you guys say.

    And you would be right about that. Because he was breaking the rules about falling in love. Just like when he left Naboo.

    Both things he was not allowed to do because they are not allowed by Jedi. Anaki did not want to leave his mother in TPM. It was Shmi who told him to go. With Obi-wan know as his master and him being in the temple. He had to go by what the rules said. Up until AOTC where he has baddreams about his mother, and meets the Girl he's loves after all those years.

    When the nightmares become to much he knows he has to go and find his mother. But he knows he can't go not with out Padme giving the ok. Because he would be breaking the rules.

    It's the samething with Obi-wan. When Padme said they were going to save him. He had a grain on his face because she gave the ok.

    So to the Jedi it would not look like he was breaking any rules when he really was.







  16. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    Anakin was not FORCED to go to Tatooine, he made a choice. Secondly, his activities with padme on Naboo prior to him leaving would also be "breaking Jedi rules" according to what you guys say.

    From Anakin's perspective he feels forced into going to Tatooine.
    He even says to Padme in their conversation the morning after his nightmare, and I quote: "I'm sorry. I don't have a choice."
    So he clearly believes he must go and see his mother, he feels he is forced to do so because of the severity of the feelings expressed in the dream he has had.

    Secondly his wooing of Padme is, yes against the Jedi Code, however by being there and protecting Padme he is obeying his Jedi Masters and following the Code.



  17. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "And you would be right about that. Because he was breaking the rules about falling in love. Just like when he left Naboo."

    Exactly, so if he was so willing to break the rules then, then your statement that he wouldn't in the ten years between TPM and AOTC no longer stands.

    "He had to go by what the rules said."

    The rules that were never mentioned in he movies.

    "When the nightmares become to much he knows he has to go and find his mother. But he knows he can't go not with out Padme giving the ok. Because he would be breaking the rules."

    But he does break the rules, so that makes no sense.

    "'It's the samething with Obi-wan. When Padme said they were going to save him. He had a grain on his face because she gave the ok.

    So to the Jedi it would not look like he was breaking any rules when he really was."


    So again you've proven me and Redxavier right, that Anakin had a disregard for the rules and broke them on many occasions, which means he would have done the same before.



  18. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    The rules that were never mentioned in he movies.

    They were giving in the movie? Padme gave them.

    that Anakin had a disregard for the rules and broke them on many occasions, which means he would have done the same before.

    He did not break those rule until he meet Padme and he had baddreams about his mother. Until then he was with Obi-wan. Again it was his first mission he was on his own and he was breaking the rules. But until that point the was not breadking the rules.
  19. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    But until that point the was not breadking [sic] the rules.

    All hail the Bread King! :p

    So now Jedi have unfettered rights to everyone else's property, and can steal whatever they want on a whim? Don't forget that in addition to grand theft auto, Anakin's already ditched Obi to pursue Zam on his own.

    He clearly has no qualms about breaking rules when it suits him.
  20. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    So now Jedi have unfettered rights to everyone else's property, and can steal whatever they want on a whim? Don't forget that in addition to grand theft auto, Anakin's already ditched Obi to pursue Zam on his own.

    What waws Anakin going to do?

    I can see it know though.

    Yoda: Save Obi-wan you did not. Get this Zam you did not. Out of the Jedi Order you are.

    Anakin: But Master I could not take something that did not belong to me.

    Yoda: To save Obi-wan and catch the peson trying to killing Padme. You should have.

    That was all that was there for him to use.
  21. ShaakRider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    star 2
    The central issue of the thread is the inconsistency of Anakin's character.
    I wouldn't say Anakin's character inconsistent,though i do think it's underdeveloped. Since his portrayal is so sketchy, we have to fill the gaps via speculation, and i think it can be done in a more or less consistent way. I'm not sure it's really worth the effort though.

    What I am arguing now is that the love shown towards his mother in AOTC isn't as strong as that shown in TPM. And that their separation has nothing to do with why Anakin is an arrogant prick in AOTC (or perhaps, I should stay for clarity, the beginning of AOTC).
    I think it's very similar in both movies: in TPM he misses his mother and is afraid of loosing her. Notice, he doesn't say: "Oh, but mom will have a terrible life as a slave, what if Wattoo sells or loses her to some brute, i'm so worried about her!" he wants her to be around him. Of course, it's understandable considering his age. As time passed, he got used to her absence and he still didn't think about her fate, i guess. (Interestingly the same thing didn't work with Padme, for some reason he kept dreaming/thinking about her all along)

    His speech at Shmi's funeral is again all about how he misses her, how he failed, how he will get more power*.

    The only time he seemed to be more concerned with her mother than with himself was when he decided to look after her. I think JKBurtola[/i] has a point with this:
    From Anakin's perspective he feels forced into going to Tatooine.
    He even says to Padme in their conversation the morning after his nightmare, and I quote: "I'm sorry. I don't have a choice."
    So he clearly believes he must go and see his mother, he feels he is forced to do so because of the severity of the feelings expressed in the dream he has had.

    Maybe his earlier dreams weren't as bad :confused: it's still strange, would he say/feel the same thing with Obi-Wan around, or if Padme didn't reject him?



    *In fact, looks like he wanted to be a Jedi for power in the first place. He wanted power to free the slaves, and he thought the Jedi are invincible (no one can kill a Jedi). Only he had to learn soon, that things don't work that way.
    So after all, he was sort of self-centered as a kid, though not any more than it's natural, and he became even more self-centered as an adult. He wanted power to help people (and himself too :p) as a kid, he wanted power just in order to be in controll all the time as an adult. Considering how incompetent the Jedi were portrayed, their navel-gazing habit and their apparent reluctance to be concerned with him beyond empty phrases, there's nothing surprising about that.
  22. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    Maybe his earlier dreams weren't as bad

    Thats most probably it, or this last dream made everything come to a head and he decided that he must go. He obviously thought Obi-Wan's comment of "dreams pass in time" was wrong and that this was more than a dream.

    it's still strange, would he say/feel the same thing with Obi-Wan around, or if Padme didn't reject him?

    I don't know, by the sounds of it he's not that open with Obi-Wan so I doubt it. With Padme....I think regardless he'd have gone to see his mother.

    But we can only deal with what we have.
  23. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    Me:He'd been on this solo mission for at least 2 days when he decided to go and find Shmi. Had he decided to try and find her a day earlier he could've have saved her.

    Ani:"Nope he could not have done that."

    Yep he could've done that.
    In fact you already admitted he could when you previously said:
    "When he went on his first mission by himself he was at last able to do that."

    Or are you contradicting yourself now?


    g
  24. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Thats most probably it, or this last dream made everything come to a head and he decided that he must go. He obviously thought Obi-Wan's comment of "dreams pass in time" was wrong and that this was more than a dream.

    That's what I was getting to.

    I don't know, by the sounds of it he's not that open with Obi-Wan so I doubt it. With Padme....I think regardless he'd have gone to see his mother/

    Could be.
  25. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    The point, ani, is that he broke the rules several times, without hesitation and without regret. He also openly defies Obi on numerous occasions. Yet you maintain that he values the rules above all else? Why?
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