The flow of Anakin's character from TPM to AOTC

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by SLR, Oct 22, 2003.

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  1. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    The point, ani, is that he broke the rules several times, without hesitation and without regret. He also openly defies Obi on numerous occasions.

    Again he took the ship or what ever it is to go save Obi-wan. And the he defies Obi-wan on numerus occasions. I only saw one scene like that.

    Yet you maintain that he values the rules above all else?

    And he does value the rules. Until that point in time he went by the rules.
  2. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    Yet you maintain that he values the rules above all else? Why?

    Because he wants to be a Jedi Knight. Its that simple.
  3. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Again he took the ship or what ever it is to go save Obi-wan.

    Yes, but again, he had no qualms about breaking rules to do it.

    And the he defies Obi-wan on numerus occasions. I only saw one scene like that.

    (1) In the elevator.

    (2) In front of Padme.

    (3) Later that night, in Padme's apartment.

    (4) During the chase, when he blows off everything Obi says.

    EDIT: Don't forget (5) The fight with Dooku; "I'm taking him now!"

    In fact, they hardly have a scene together where Anakin doesn't turn a deaf ear to his advice; even behind his back, the kid can't help but mouth off.

    And he does value the rules. Until that point in time he went by the rules.

    Until what point? The first time we see him? Even as a kid, he disregarded orders if he saw fit to break them.

    There's just no case for Anakin being a by-the-book straight arrow. Everything in the film goes against it.

    He wants to be a Jedi Knight.

    Come on; this is the kid who built a complete protocol droid at age nine, but he can't get a phone call off without triggering the Jedi's Familial Love Alert? And where in the films do they call that an expulsion-worthy offense, or even discuss it at all?
  4. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    (1) In the elevator.

    That was them joking around. Obi-wan was trying to getting Anakin to relax. Anakin made a Joke.

    (2) In front of Padme

    That was the only time.

    Yes, but again, he had no qualms about breaking rules to do it.

    Then how would you have him save Obi-wan?

    Even as a kid, he disregarded orders if he saw fit to break them.

    What orders?
  5. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "I can see it know though.

    Yoda: Save Obi-wan you did not. Get this Zam you did not. Out of the Jedi Order you are.

    Anakin: But Master I could not take something that did not belong to me.

    Yoda: To save Obi-wan and catch the peson trying to killing Padme. You should have.

    That was all that was there for him to use."


    Yeah, that would be as ridiculous as say...


    Anakin: I miss my mom

    Yoda: too bad, parents allowed to have you are not

    Anakin: But she's trapped as a slave on tatooine with a bomb hidden in her body somewhere

    Yoda: out of our jurisdiction it is, rot she must. Forget about her you should

    Anakin: but she's my mom. I love her

    Yoda: The dark side I sense in you.
  6. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    That was them joking around. Obi-wan was trying to getting Anakin to relax. Anakin made a Joke.

    "You fell into that nightmare, Master, and I rescued you" is a joke?

    That was the only time.

    That wasn't the only time, ani. Did you read the other three?

    Then how would you have him save Obi-wan?

    You're not understanding what I'm saying. What he did resulted in more good than harm; however, it illustrates that he doesn't care about rules if they're in the way.

    What orders?

    Gee, I don't know; remember that time he tore off into battle when he was supposed to lay low? Again, rules and orders mean nothing to him if they get in his way.
  7. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "And he does value the rules. Until that point in time he went by the rules."

    And you can prove this... how?


    'Then how would you have him save Obi-wan?"

    Well according to you, Anakin should never have gone to Geonosis to save Obi-wan, and Luke should never have gone to cloud city to save Leia and Han, so isn;t it the same situation??
  8. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    how was the republic winning at that point? Why does Yoda say "well done commander" whent he seperatist had succeeded in doing exactly what the jedi and clones were trying to stop them from doing?

    Obi Wan: "I must admit, that without the clones it wouldn't have been a victory" for which Mace also nodded. But as Yoda chose to save Anakin, he realizes that there is no way War was avoidable. "Begun the Clone War has"



  9. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    You're not understanding what I'm saying. What he did resulted in more good than harm; however, it illustrates that he doesn't care about rules if they're in the way.

    What? If he had not done what he did Obi-wan woudl be dead and Zam would have got away. So again I ask what would you have him do at that point? Where did he break the rules in going to save Obi-wan?

    Gee, I don't know; remember that time he tore off into battle when he was supposed to lay low?

    Ok let's look at that scene again. Battle dorids came out and started fireing at Padme and the other. He used the ship to fire at them. After that he had no control until R2 gave it back to him.

    Well according to you, Anakin should never have gone to Geonosis to save Obi-wan, and Luke should never have gone to cloud city to save Leia and Han, so isn;t it the same situation??

    Where talking about the speeder chase.
  10. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    I know that Ani, but try and stick with me.

    ready?

    Here goes:

    1.Anakin broke the rules by stealling a speeder to save Obi-wan, if he hadn't Obi-wan might have died.

    2.Anakin broke the rules to go to Geonosis, if he hadn't Obi-wan might of died

    3.Luke broke the rules to go to Cloud city because he believed if he didn't, Leia and Han might have died.

    In all three examples the hero had good intentions but nonetheless broke the rules to accomplish them.

    According to you, in examples 2 and 3, Luke and Anakin made Big mistakes and were wrong

    But now you're saying that in example 1, Anakin was right.

    Do you see why its impossible to take your arguments seriously when you contradict yourself at every turn?
  11. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Anakin broke the rules by stealling a speeder to save Obi-wan, if he hadn't Obi-wan might have died.

    Again I will ask you what would you have him do? In that case he is not breaking any rule because he is trying to save Obi-wan so. So what would you have him do?
  12. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Obi Wan: "I must admit, that without the clones it wouldn't have been a victory" for which Mace also nodded. But as Yoda chose to save Anakin, he realizes that there is no way War was avoidable. "Begun the Clone War has"

    Thats what I mean, its sloppy inconsistent writing. If you look at what happened, the seperatist clearly won the battle. Their goal was to escape and invade the galaxy.

    The republic's goal was to stop them.

    Would you agree?

    Okay, so why do Yoda, the clone captain Obi and Mace all act as though the mission was a success? It makes no sense. They failed in their goal.

    Yoda should not be saying "well done commander" thats the last thing he should be saying.
  13. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    What? If he had not done what he did Obi-wan woudl be dead and Zam would have got away. So again I ask what would you have him do at that point?

    You're still misunderstanding. Let me be as monosyllabic as possible:

    He did what he had to do. He broke the rules to do it.

    Where did he break the rules in going to save Obi-wan?

    This isn't Grand Theft Auto 3, ani. You can't just walk up to any vehicle you see and take it. Then, of course, he goes on to ignore everything Obi says, and conduct the chase his way regardless of his master's advice.

    Ok let's look at that scene again. Battle dorids came out and started fireing at Padme and the other. He used the ship to fire at them.

    No one's going to blame him for that, but...

    After that he had no control until R2 gave it back to him.

    And what did he do then? Go back, or put himself in mortal danger? Sure, Qui told him to stay in the cockpit, but if you tell your kid "stay in the car" and they drive to Mexico, are they doing what you asked them to do?

    Again, and we should be past this by now, the film shows him to be anything but a straight arrow. It's perfectly obvious.
  14. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    This isn't Grand Theft Auto 3, ani. You can't just walk up to any vehicle you see and take it. Then, of course, he goes on to ignore everything Obi says, and conduct the chase his way regardless of his master's advice.

    DG this is a simple thing I'm asking. What would you have him do then. How does you want him to save Obi-wan. What do you want him to do at that point.

    Do you see why its impossible to take your arguments seriously when you contradict yourself at every turn?

    No I have not contradicted myself.

  15. ShaakRider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    star 2
    I'd go with anidanami regarding the speeder. I don't think the Jedi rules say anything about stealing speeders in extreme necessity, they even might have a regular way to handle such cases, since I doubt Anakin was the only Jedi ever who had to utilize someone else's property. I guess the Jedi compensate the owner and they're forgiven, for the greater good of the Republic.
  16. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Again I will ask you what would you have him do? In that case he is not breaking any rule because he is trying to save Obi-wan so."

    But he was trying to save Obi-wan when he went to Geonosis, so why was that wrong?

    Luke was trying to save Han and Leia when he went to cloud city, why was that wrong?


    So what would you have him do?"

    Save Obi-wan, I think he was right to break the rules to save him, but I also think he would be right to break the rules to go save his mom. But thats not the point, what we are trying to show is that when it suits his needs Anakin is willing to break the rules, his motives are always pure, but thats not what we're talking about.

    Honestly Ani how old are you?

  17. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    If you look at what happened, the seperatist clearly won the battle. Their goal was to escape and invade the galaxy

    As far I understand (you can feel free to correct me), that the Separatists wanted to be powerful enough to make demands. War was not the agenda for them. However, it was indeed Dooku's. "I have good news my Lord, War has begun". Dooku is just using the Separatists as pawns for the main idea of starting a war.

    But the victory Obi Wan mentions was that the battle of Geonosis was won, not the War. But it is after Dooku's escape that indeed WAR in the gravest sense really had begun.




  18. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    DG this is a simple thing I'm asking. What would you have him do then. How does you want him to save Obi-wan. What do you want him to do at that point.

    I'm going to rephrase this one more time, ani.

    He did the best thing he could have, and it happened to involve breaking the rules.

    Now, what do you say to everything else we've talked about this page?
  19. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    But he was trying to save Obi-wan when he went to Geonosis, so why was that wrong?

    I'm not talking about Geonosis. I'm talking about the speeder chase. Which I have yet to get any answer as to what Anakin should have done to save Obi-wan there.

    Now, what do you say to everything else we've talked about this page?

    I have already gone over that. I'm not going to go over it again.
  20. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "No I have not contradicted myself."

    You said it was wrong for ANakin to go to break the rules to save Obi-wan in one scene (geonosis), but okay for him to break the rules to save Obi-wan in another (the chase)

    thats a contradiction.
  21. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Which I have yet to get any answer as to what Anakin should have done to save Obi-wan there.

    I just explained it, ani. Scroll up three posts.
  22. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    You said it was wrong for ANakin to go to break the rules to save Obi-wan in one scene (geonosis), but okay for him to break the rules to save Obi-wan in another (the chase)

    thats a contradiction.


    No it's not. In the chase he was not given in order to stay where he was at. He knew what he had to do. With Genonosis he was breaking the order that Mace gave him.
  23. JohnWesleyDowney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2004
    star 5
    This isn't Grand Theft Auto 3, ani. You can't just walk up to any vehicle you see and take it. Then, of course, he goes on to ignore everything Obi says, and conduct the chase his way regardless of his master's advice.

    Oh good grief, I've seen movies all my life where someone commandeers a vehicle to commence a chase.
    It's a movie tradition. Gene Hackman does it in the French Connection and he's a cop.

    Anakin grabs a speeder to try and save Obi-Wan's life. That's plenty good reason.

    Here's the word on the speeder from the AOTC DVD Text Commentary courtesy of Grilled Sarlaac:

    Anakin "borrows" a hot rod airspeeder belonging to Senator Simon Greyshade of the Vorzyd sector.



  24. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "As far I understand (you can feel free to correct me), that the Separatists wanted to be powerful enough to make demands. War was not the agenda for them. However, it was indeed Dooku's. "I have good news my Lord, War has begun". Dooku is just using the Separatists as pawns for the main idea of starting a war.

    But the victory Obi Wan mentions was that the battle of Geonosis was won, not the War. But it is after Dooku's escape that indeed WAR in the gravest sense really had begun."


    I guess, but it seems unlikely they would mass such an army without any plans to use it, though I agree that they would have prefered to be a bit more ready.

    still, if we look at this strictly from the republic's point of view, Bail said "the commerce guilds are preparing for war, there can be no doubt of that"

    So I'd say they were planning to invade, or at least thats what the republic thought. Either way, it hardly seems a victory even on a superficial level.
  25. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    Come on; this is the kid who built a complete protocol droid at age nine, but he can't get a phone call off without triggering the Jedi's Familial Love Alert? And where in the films do they call that an expulsion-worthy offense, or even discuss it at all?

    Hmmm well what about this?

    Anakin and Padme's discussion on the Freighter to Naboo:
    "Must be difficult having sworn your life to the Jedi, not being able to visit the places you like or do the things you like."

    "Or be with the people that I love."


    And this statement not only refers to Padme, but to his mother also. So Anakin hasn't been able to do what he wants, but do his duty to the galaxy.

    There is a reason to the PT era Jedi that they dont allow anyone who has knowledge of their previous life, the attachments can be more harm than good and it then causes a conflict between love and duty for a Jedi, and if the Jedi chooses love then they forsake what they committed themselves to in the first place. And that leads to be expelled.

    However the Jedi's view on this is clearly wrong and is proved wrong in the OT.
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