The flow of Anakin's character from TPM to AOTC

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by SLR, Oct 22, 2003.

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  1. Darth Geist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    I have already gone over that. I'm not going to go over it again.

    Then you forfeit every single point. That's the way it works.

    Anakin grabs a speeder to try and save Obi-Wan's life. That's plenty good reason.

    No one here has said that he didn't have his reasons; we all agree he did the best thing possible. All we're saying is that the scene illustrates Anakin's disregard for other people's rules. Very simple.
  2. anidanami124 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Then you forfeit every single point. That's the way it works.

    No I don't I have already gone over that on the last few pages. That does not mean I forfeit any points.
  3. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    Then you forfeit every single point. That's the way it works.

    That isn't the way it works. Unless you're going to accept his points and not make him repeat it ad neuseum, this discussion will go nowhere.
    And all I happen to think your strategy is typical, you're deliberately trying to get anidanami aggravated just so he can lash out at you and then flame you, then you're gonna cry foul when you're really the aggressor.

    Really I wish you'd learn that debate doesn't work that way.
  4. Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "I'm not talking about Geonosis. I'm talking about the speeder chase. Which I have yet to get any answer as to what Anakin should have done to save Obi-wan there."

    Giest answered you. Learn to read:

    Nobody is saying it was wrong for Anakin to save Obi-wan, he did the right thing. We agree with you in that situation, doing the right thing involved breaking the rules.

    But its still breaking the rules, and thats all we're getting at. I'm not sure why its taken 10 posts to explain the most basic concept to you.


    It would also be the right thing to do for Anakin to go free his mother, even if it is against the rules. It was the right thing to do to go to Geonosis, even if it was breaking he rules.



  5. ShaakRider Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    star 2
    doing the right thing involved breaking the rules.
    what rules, exactly?
  6. JohnWesleyDowney Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2004
    star 5

    Aw, gosh DG, that's so sweetly condescending to tell me it's "very simple." I really needed to know that!
    Thanks! :p
  7. anidanami124 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    It would also be the right thing to do for Anakin to go free his mother, even if it is against the rules. It was the right thing to do to go to Geonosis, even if it was breaking he rules.

    In those two case it is not the right thing to do. It was the wrong thing to do. His orders are to keep Padme on Naboo and not going anywhere.

    He went to Tatoonie. Then when Mace told him to stay where he is at he yet again he does not listen to the orders. In ether one of those to cases what he did was wrong.

  8. Darth Geist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Unless you're going to accept his points and not make him repeat it ad neuseum, this discussion will go nowhere.

    Then let him respond to what other people say.

    ani, for your convenience, here's the case for Anakin being a rulebreaker:

    (1) He ignored Qui's orders as a child.

    (2) In his first scene as a teenager, he introdces himself by attempting to one-up his master.

    (3) In the next scene, he defies his master repeatedly.

    (4) He mouths off behind his master's back. Twice.

    (5) He rebukes his master again that night in Padme's apartment, ignoring his advice.

    (6) In order to do his job, he takes a stranger's property.

    (7) He blows off his master completely and constantly for the duration of the chase.

    (8) During the battle with Dooku, he leaves his master's side, against his master's orders, to charge in on his own.

    Now, what do you say to all that?

    And all I happen to think your strategy is typical, you're deliberately trying to get anidanami aggravated just so he can lash out at you and then flame you, then you're gonna cry foul when you're really the aggressor.

    No, I'm just trying to get him to stick around and answer people's points instead of ducking out.

    Really I wish you'd learn that debate doesn't work that way.

    If your rebuttal consists of repeating what you just said, pretending you didn't hear the other person, or leaving the room, don't expect to come out ahead.

    Aw, gosh DG, that's so sweetly condescending to tell me it's "very simple." I really needed to know that!
    Thanks!


    Sorry, karma; didn't recognize you. That was more for ani's benefit; you know how it is when you've gotta repeat yourself four times in a row. ;)
  9. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    But he has responded and you dont listen. Besides you're just trying to break him so he gets in trouble. Which is incredibly childish and shows how typical you are.

    EDIT: actually I'll have a go:

    (1) He ignored Qui's orders as a child.

    Looked like he stayed in the cockpit to me. ;) :p

    (2) In his first scene as a teenager, he introdces himself by attempting to one-up his master.

    And thats breaking rules? Where is that? Isn't he allowed to make a joke?

    (3) In the next scene, he defies his master repeatedly.

    Yes he lacks professionalism, but its against the rules to disagree with someone? Uh-oh sounds like the thought police.

    (4) He mouths off behind his master's back. Twice.

    Its called getting things off your chest. Oh sorry is that wrong? Thought police? May I see your badge? (I take it you mean when Anakin is alone with Padme in her apartment)

    (5) He rebukes his master again that night in Padme's apartment, ignoring his advice.

    Examples? I see no proof of this.

    (6) In order to do his job, he takes a stranger's property.

    Sometimes we must break the rules to do our duty. Doesn't make him a bad person.

    (7) He blows off his master completely and constantly for the duration of the chase.

    And again how is this against the rules? He's allowed to make comments right? Jeez Thought police again.

    (8) During the battle with Dooku, he leaves his master's side, against his master's orders, to charge in on his own.

    That was foolish yes, but what rules did he break? He disobeyed his Master but its not like its part of the rule book.
  10. Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "That isn't the way it works. Unless you're going to accept his points and not make him repeat it ad neuseum, this discussion will go nowhere."

    How can we accept it, its just a lot of incoherent nonsense, we start talking about one thing and she just derails the discussion onto another topic. How can we be expect to take her seriously if she can't even maintain a basic level of discussion.

    Its complete nonsense. Aniamidala124 is a troll, she gets into these discussions to cause trouble and start flame wars, then acts clueless and innocent when things go awry.

    A ten year old could provide a better debate.
  11. Darth Geist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    But he has responded and you dont listen.

    What point of his/hers have I not responded to?

    Listening doesn't equal conceding.

    Besides you're just trying to break him so he gets in trouble.

    Far from it; I'm just trying to have an intelligent discussion. I have no interest in getting anyone in trouble; I never have.
  12. Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "doing the right thing involved breaking the rules.
    what rules, exactly?"


    stealing the speeder. Its like someone said, its like when a cop takes a car to catch the badguy. Then Anakin continually ignores or disobeys what Obi-wan says in order to catch Zam, at one point taking the speeder into a nose dive and swooping off the jetstream of a freighter just for kicks. Anakin is doing what he believes to be right in order to catch Zam, but he is disobeying his master.

  13. ShaakRider Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    star 2
    RS
    I think she's a he, and i don't think he's a troll, though he indeed not good in debating. But it's pointless to mock him because of it, he has some good insights, even if he can't defend them very well. Also, if this debate continues, the hread will be locked, so i think it would be wise to stop it.

    EDIT:

    Its like someone said, its like when a cop takes a car to catch the badguy.
    Exactly. That's why i don't see how does it show Anakin's disregard for rules. Any other Jedi would steal that speeder without doubt in his place. It's because they're the "police", so they can get off with it, if they were really in need.
  14. Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    Ani's MO is this.

    Enter a thread whose thesis she disagrees with.

    Disagree with every supporter of the thread adamently without backing up her claims

    drive the conversation into mindless rabble

    then right when she has been proven wrong say some trivial copout like "I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree"



    But of course if 'agree to disagree' was really her attitude, she wouldn't pick these arguements to begin with. Her problem is that she wants to feel superior to others and win debates, but lacks the skills to do so.


    "In those two case it is not the right thing to do. It was the wrong thing to do. His orders are to keep Padme on Naboo and not going anywhere."

    And is this based on anything but your own speculation. How can you prove that one is right and the other is wrong?

    Was it wrong for Qui-gon to mindtrick Boss Nass to get the bongo sub?

    Was it wrong to rig the dice to win the bet with Watto?

    Was it wrong for Anakin to disobey Qui-gon and enter the space battle? If he hadn't then the battle would of been lost.

  15. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    Its complete nonsense. Aniamidala124 is a troll, she gets into these discussions to cause trouble and start flame wars, then acts clueless and innocent when things go awry.

    Oh thats rich! That is ******* rich! You guys get fans like myself and dan in trouble because you push us too far. You ignore our responses and make us repeat them until we're blue in the face. You guys are the trolls.

    And DG you're not after intelligent discussion you dont fool me.
  16. Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Sometimes we must break the rules to do our duty. Doesn't make him a bad person."

    Exactly, thats the whole point. Thats what we've been getting at all along. But where do you draw the line? Aniamidala seems to know where, she has a clear idea of when it was okay to break the rules, and when it wasn't, we just want her to explain how she seems to know this.

    And more importantly, we aren't rendering any judgement on Anakin's rule breaking, we just want to establish that he does infact break the rules on a consistent basis, thats all. Whether its right or wrong is not what we're discussing, except Ani124 keeps derailing the discussion in that direction rather then answer the original questions.


    "He disobeyed his Master but its not like its part of the rule book. "

    How do you know? The rules are never explained onscreen, which what we are getting at.
  17. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    Exactly, thats the whole point.

    Good, glad we agree on something, but as for the rest of your babble...I'm going to ignore that since it has nothing to do with my views.


    How do you know? The rules are never explained onscreen, which what we are getting at.

    Because I'm using my right as the viewer to assume something. Oh sorry I can't do that [face_plain] And anyway if it was dont you think Anakin would have been reprimanded for it? But I didnt see that happen.
  18. Darth Geist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Thanks for responding, Burtola:

    (1) He ignored Qui's orders as a child.

    Looked like he stayed in the cockpit to me.


    I refer you back to the question, "If you tell your kid to stay in the car, and he drives to Mexico, did he follow your instructions?"

    (2) In his first scene as a teenager, he introdces himself by attempting to one-up his master.

    And thats breaking rules? Where is that? Isn't he allowed to make a joke?


    It wasn't much of a joke (if it counts as one at all), and the point has to do with his attitude.

    (3) In the next scene, he defies his master repeatedly.

    Yes he lacks professionalism, but its against the rules to disagree with someone? Uh-oh sounds like the thought police.


    Never mind the melodramatics; again, it's a question of attitude. There's also another issue: Dereliction of duty. If an officer gives a briefing, and his subordinate openly and repeatedly questions him in front of the men, it doesn't go unnoticed.

    (4) He mouths off behind his master's back. Twice.

    Its called getting things off your chest. Oh sorry is that wrong? Thought police? May I see your badge? (I take it you mean when Anakin is alone with Padme in her apartment)


    No thought police here; we're just establishing what kind of character he is, and what kind of things bother him?such as other people thinking they can tell him what to do.

    (5) He rebukes his master again that night in Padme's apartment, ignoring his advice.

    Examples? I see no proof of this.


    "Your senses aren't that attuned." "And yours are?"

    (6) In order to do his job, he takes a stranger's property.

    Sometimes we must break the rules to do our duty. Doesn't make him a bad person.


    I didn't say he was a bad person; he did the right thing, broke the rules to do it, and that's the fifth time I've had to say that.

    (7) He blows off his master completely and constantly for the duration of the chase.

    And again how is this against the rules? He's allowed to make comments right? Jeez Thought police again.


    It goes further to establish his attitude. Does all this paint a picture of a man who follows rules and authority for their own sake? Of course not.

    (8) During the battle with Dooku, he leaves his master's side, against his master's orders, to charge in on his own.

    That was foolish yes, but what rules did he break? He disobeyed his Master but its not like its part of the rule book.


    Try ignoring your sergeant's orders and opening fire early.

    Now, all of that paints a picture not of a bad guy, but a guy who follows his own judgement, regardless of what other people tell him to do. He doesn't break rules for the sake of breaking rules, but neither does he follow them just because they exist; he does whatever seems most right at the time, and damn what other people say.

    And DG you're not after intelligent discussion you dont fool me.

    I'm sorry, but you've jumped to conclusions here.

    Now, as for the point you raised on the previous page about Jedi being unable to be with the people they love: The point there is that this aspect of the Jedi code seems half-baked. Obviously, Jedi form attachments all the time, both with each other and with friends outside of the Order. (Dex, Palpatine, etc.) If there is a concrete rule against forming attachments, it's very vague, and it's certainly a leap to assert that any contact with people you care about will get you expelled.
  19. Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "You guys get fans like myself and dan in trouble because you push us too far. You ignore our responses and make us repeat them until we're blue in the face. You guys are the trolls."

    Nobody can get you in trouble but yourself. Nobody is ignoring your posts, we've been responding.

    What do we push too far?

    If you don't like this sort of thing then why seek out the threads that are slanted in this direction? Because your looking for trouble.

    You want to debate, but you don't like to back up your claims and you can't admit when you're wrong.

    If you were all about 'agree to disagree' you wouldn't get into this.

    You guys had your private club where you could sit around and bash us to your hearts contents, but you decided to come back here despite how much you hate us. And I can only assume that deep down you guys need us for whatever weird reason.
  20. Grilled-Sarlacc Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2001
    star 6
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