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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The flow of Anakin's character from TPM to AOTC

Discussion in 'Archive: Attack of the Clones' started by SLR, Oct 22, 2003.

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  1. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 1999
    "now thats rubbish... no wonder I find your comments to be a waste of time"

    come on man, don't cop out, Present a real reply to my post. I think AotC was pandering to fans, don't you have a rebuttal to that?
     
  2. Bad_Feeling

    Bad_Feeling Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2002
    I feel that after Episode 3 is released we will have a six part saga where every film is great. The thing is to recognize just how flawed the OT is while celebrating all that is great about the OT.

    Spot on.
     
  3. SkottASkywalker

    SkottASkywalker Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2002
    To make the jump of logic you suggest is relying on your presumption that Palpatine is Sidious and that Anakin becomes Darth Vader. The first is unknown and the latter shouldnt effect how the story is written in Episode II. There are some who haven't seen ANH.

    You are the one being presumptuous in assuming that Lucas and I are relying on the fans knowledge of the Original Trilogy. Even for someone seeing these movies for the first time and that first time being in order by episode, we are seeing more and more, starting in EPISODE I, that something is up with Palpatine. Then in EPISODE II we are seeing something is up with Anakin. Then in EPISODE III all will be revealed. Patience. Let Lucas finish telling his story. :cool:

    The STAR WARS saga covers 30+ years of story in 12+/13+ hours of screen time. 12+/13+ hours of screen time compared to 30+ years of story is a small window to cover 30+ years of story. And just as the 12+/13+ hours of screen time shows us the 30+ years of story, sometimes small scenes show us larger views of the story than the running time of the scene itself, even if it's subtle, even if it's a hint. 30+ years of story is a lot to fit in 12+/13+ hours of screen time. Lucas has found creative ways to best fit everything that he wants us to see/hear/know and what he feels we need to see/hear/know. But he's not finished. The story is not yet complete. I trust him. He knows what he is doing. You may not agree, but that changes nothing for me.

    I'm totally into seeing even more than what we are shown, but obviously it can't all be shown and obviously not all of that is shown can be shown in complete detail. One fan may want to see this. Another fan may want to see that. Doesn't make the decisions Lucas makes wrong. Doesn't make the decisions Lucas makes incorrect. Doesn't make the decisions Lucas makes short of the best decisions.

    Relax. Let Lucas finish telling his story.


     
  4. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 1999
    Its not a matter of being shown more, its what we are being shown. There is a lot of emphasis on things that are pretty trival, while the main too relationships, the ones of importance to the rest of the saga the Anakin/Obi-wan relationship and the Anakin/Palpatine relationship have occured mostly offscreen.

    next to these two character dynamics, everything else should be secondary. But thats not how its playing out at all, both these two elements have been nearly forgotton, and left by the wayside, while all sorts of tangents have been explored.
     
  5. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Ani-124 - I meant my first question had been avoided. (the one about these subtle hints;))

    I feel that the argument that 'these things happen' is pretty weak. This is a fairy tale, a moral story almost, about a boy who grows up and turns to evil. To pull the main punch of the story is bad storytelling, and this is how it appears. Lucas has copped out by not showing (or even telling) the WHY of Anakin's negative development.

    It's all fine and dandy putting in hints that a single influence on Anakin's life has turned him into a dispicable prick but it's not sufficient given the seriousness of the film's message. Something I find worrying given that almost every kid has seen the PT so far.

    If Palpatine's influence is so important to the beginning of Anakin's downfall, why is it so significantly sidelined? Why wasn't this theme expanded?

    I realise I'm taking the films a little more seriously than they were probably intended but given the beginnings of the SW saga, it is so unreasonable to place upon Lucas' shoulders the responsiblity that entails with telling a story about good and evil to young kids?

     
  6. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 1999
    exactly,

    what moral lessons and values can kids learn from the PT? None so far as I can see, in which case this is just a lot of gratitius violence aimed at kids.

    or is it something like:

    Its better for kids to be taken from their parents then to be raised by them?

     
  7. DamonD

    DamonD Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2002
    The problem you are having is in insisting on keeping the PT and the OT seperate.

    Look at the Saga for a chance.

    Guy makes big mistakes, screws up, is redeemed. There's your moral message, by looking at the whole picture rather than restricting your viewpoint.
     
  8. anidanami124

    anidanami124 Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 24, 2002
    If Palpatine's influence is so important to the beginning of Anakin's downfall, why is it so significantly sidelined? Why wasn't this theme expanded?

    Because it's not just Palpaitne. There are other things that lead to his down fall. Not just Palpaitne. Things such as his mother's death, Qui-gon's death. As good as Obi-wan is he really is more a friend/master. Where as Qui-gon would be more like a father. It's also the fact that Anakin holds on to things to much. He does not know how to let go.

    He has fear for his mother. When she dies he dose not know how to let go. It's not until ROTJ that he learns that.

    There is much more to his down fall then just Palpatine.
     
  9. DarthTerrious

    DarthTerrious Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 16, 2001
    If Palpatine's influence is so important to the beginning of Anakin's downfall, why is it so significantly sidelined? Why wasn't this theme expanded?

    Lucas explained that his influence and the nature of their relationship is more important to the events of Episode 3. For the mean time he has to give us fleeting glimpses and hints.
     
  10. Darthkarma

    Darthkarma Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2000

    The two glaring examples of Palpatine's influence
    are the conversation in the meadow regarding dictatorship, and Anakin's proclamation during the
    confession scene that one day he will be
    "the most powerful Jedi ever." Lucas is giving
    us credit for being able to figure out who's
    influencing these thinking processes.


     
  11. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Good points Anidanami-124.

    He has fear for his mother. When she dies he dose not know how to let go. It's not until ROTJ that he learns that.

    This is a really good argument, but it is filling in the gaps with your own imagination. Of course, the issue I'm trying to understand is why he's such a prick before his mother dies.

    Not to mention the fact that if he loves his mother so much, how come he hasn't contacted her in 10 years - doesn't the SW universe have emails or phones? It's never explained in the movie.

    Furthermore, given the nature of his training, I find it odd that Anakin wouldn't have learnt humility etc. His training appears to be like a high school, as if Anakin grows arrogant because he's better than the other students. This further diminishes the pre-PT image of the Jedi.

    I can't help but feel that this whole aspect of Anakin's character could have been much more efficiently brought across by exploring the training process. Show Anakin being better than other Jedi of his age (don't have Anakin/ObiWan tell us). It would also have made an interesting counterpoint to Luke's training on Dagobah (Yoda returning to the basics, having learnt from his mistakes).

    There is much more to his down fall then just Palpatine.

    I don't know... I certainly think Palpatine's influence begins Anakin's downfall, whereas various castatastrophe's spark his turn to the Dark Side.

    But still, I personally am not quite satisfied with the exact nature of Palpatine's influence. We see hints of it Anakin's talk with Padme on Naboo - suggestions that he shares a similar political ideology as Palpatine. But having an ideology that appears to be an alternative to the chaos of the Republic is not really a bad thing (though that raises issues of whether Palpatine is really evil!)

    So what are the negative forces making Anakin like this prior to his mother's death, and more importantly, how are these manifested on screen?

     
  12. DarthTerrious

    DarthTerrious Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 16, 2001
    This is a really good argument, but it is filling in the gaps with your own imagination.

    And thats the point, you could learn a thing or two from Anidanami.
     
  13. anidanami124

    anidanami124 Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 24, 2002
    Furthermore, given the nature of his training, I find it odd that Anakin wouldn't have learnt humility etc. His training appears to be like a high school, as if Anakin grows arrogant because he's better than the other students. This further diminishes the pre-PT image of the Jedi.

    Watch TESB then the OT. Yoda does not want to train Anakin because he's to old. He's set in his ways. For 10 year he has grown up with his mother. Know he goes off to join the Jedi. Here's where the problem comes in. It's really hard to break ten years of being with his mother and loving her and having love. To be a Jedi and go by what they say. Which answers this:

    Not to mention the fact that if he loves his mother so much, how come he hasn't contacted her in 10 years - doesn't the SW universe have emails or phones? It's never explained in the movie.

    The Jedi don't want him to see his mother or have any contact with her. They want him to let go of her. Because he has to live above those he loves. He has to learn to let go of those he loves. When his mother dies he should have at that point been able to let go. But he does not know how. That's why he gives into his anger. This is all do to the fact that he has fear of losing his mother.

    I can't help but feel that this whole aspect of Anakin's character could have been much more efficiently brought across by exploring the training process. Show Anakin being better than other Jedi of his age (don't have Anakin/ObiWan tell us). It would also have made an interesting counterpoint to Luke's training on Dagobah (Yoda returning to the basics, having learnt from his mistakes).

    That is being shown. But there is something you are missing. Luke and Anakin are both to old to being the training. What Yoda said you have to unlearn what you have learned. Luke was able to do that. Anakin was not able to do that.

    In TESB Luke runs off to save Han and Leia. He should have stayed to finish. Anakin runs off to save his mother and then Obi-wan. The first thing he should not have done was run off to save his mother. The 2nd thing was that he should not have run off to save Obi-wan.

    Anakin and Luke both made that same mistake. So they have both in TESB and AOTC have not unlearned what they have learned.

    In ROTJ Luke learns that he needs to let go of his feelings, that he needs to let go of those he loves. I won't get into Ep3 here.

    But if you watch ROTJ you will see that Luke has learned what his father learned when he was near the end of his life. To let go. That you can't save ever one that, you have to let go of those you love, that you have to think about more then just those you love.

    The Jedi are about helping ever one. Anakin is about helping and keeing those he loves safe. Luke is the same way to a point.
     
  14. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    And thats the point, you could learn a thing or two from Anidanami.

    See, that's what I would do... except last time I did that Lucas decided to do a 180 on everything I had 'assumed' about things in the OT. No thanks, not going there again.



    EDIT - Again, all great stuff, it's a good interpretation of what's happening in general. I suppose my argument is really 'could this have been realised better?'

    There's only one problem with your analysis, and that's the differences in ages between Anakin and Luke where they begin their training. It's quite fair to assume that Anakin is at a ripe age (that's the age where most children go to school for real) to be taught what the Jedi stand for... whilst Luke is clearly already a full developed human being. Therefore there's a distinct difference between the two and how they react to what is expected of them. Anakin had 10 years under Yoda, ObiWan and the Jedi Order... Luke had what seemed like a few months in a completely different environment. It seems contrived to draw a parallel between their situations.
     
  15. Darthkarma

    Darthkarma Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2000
    Furthermore, given the nature of his training, I find it odd that Anakin wouldn't have learnt humility etc. His training appears to be like a high school, as if Anakin grows arrogant because he's better than the other students. This further diminishes the pre-PT image of the Jedi.

    This is one of the most exasperating things I've ever read around here.

    First of all, I don't know who's pre-PT image of the Jedi you're referring to, but it obviously wasn't that of George Lucas. He's illustrating that an organization can decay from within. It can happen to nations,companies, individuals, and it's happening with the Jedi. The Jedi have lost their humility and are blind to what is happening around them. Even when told that a Sith Lord is controlling the Senate by Dooku, Obi-Wan's response is "that's not possible, the Jedi would know."

    The blindness and arrogance of the Jedi both collectively AND on Anakin's part are one of the reason's FOR THEIR DOWNFALL. It's a huge aspect of the prequels. It's spelled out in big clear messages!!!

    Did you notice the arrogance of Qui-Gon and Obi-
    Wan in TPM ("these Federation types are cowards",
    "another pathetic life form")? In AOTC Obi-Wan mentions Anakin is arrogant and Yoda says he's noticed the same thing with the older Jedi.

    It's as clear as bright sunshine, one of the major reason's the Republic fell to the Emperor was the hubris of the Jedi. It's a major theme of the prequels, it just doesn't fit in with your presumptions about the Jedi or your preconceived ideas about the prequels. And this tragic flaw makes the Jedi and the story much more interesting and human.
     
  16. anidanami124

    anidanami124 Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 24, 2002
    whilst Luke is clearly already a full developed human being. Therefore there's a distinct difference between the two and how they react to what is expected of them. Anakin had 10 years under Yoda, ObiWan and the Jedi Order...

    The problem again is that Anakin is being told to let go of his mother. To let go of the people he loves and so on for the Jedi. When you have know ten years of that it's not something you are just going to give up.

    Love is very powerful. It can be used for good and bad. The Jedi train jedi from the day they are born so they don't have love for there parents or someone else. They want them to have mroe then just love for a child, a mother, a father, a lover. Because those things can be used aganist you. Anakin has to learn to let go of his mothers love. That's not something that is really easy. If I was a ten year old kid and I joined a group where I have to learn to let go of my mother's love or my father's love I don't think I would be able to do that.

    It's not as easy as you think to let go of those things. If it was then it would be easy to forget even those who have dead that you love.

    My aunt lost the person she loved for a very long time. She will not just forget him. She has moved on. But she is not going to forget the love she had for him. Because that's not something that is easy to do. She has found new love and remarried. But her first love will always be in her heart. So as much as the Jedi try Anakin's love for his mother will always be there. His love for Padme will always be there.

    Edit: Dk and you are right the Jedi also do have arrogance in them. But I would not say Qui-gon has that much arrogance in them. He was after all right about the TF. Instead of facing them to work something out they wanted to kill the Jedi. ;)
     
  17. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 1999
    "See, that's what I would do... except last time I did that Lucas decided to do a 180 on everything I had 'assumed' about things in the OT. No thanks, not going there again."

    Exactly. Funny how the "use your imagination" arguement gets used to fill in the blanks, but you guys are quick to turn around and slam us for doing just that for the back story.

    "you could learn a thing or two from Aniamidala124"


    Now thats funny.

     
  18. anidanami124

    anidanami124 Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 24, 2002
    Exactly. Funny how the "use your imagination" arguement gets used to fill in the blanks, but you guys are quick to turn around and slam us for doing just that for the back story.

    I'm not using my imagination. All the info is right there in the movies. Some people see and some don't.

    "you could learn a thing or two from Aniamidala124"


    Now thats funny.

    [face_plain]
     
  19. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 1999
    "I'm not using my imagination. All the info is right there in the movies. Some people see and some don't."

    Exactly.

    See I'm learning already.
     
  20. WookieDroppings

    WookieDroppings Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 16, 2003
    One thing you have to remember is that over those 10 years betweeen TPM and AOTC, you not only had Obi Wan training Anakin. You also had Palpatine "whispering" in little Ani's ear as well. You know how subtle and how slick ol' Palpy is. You heard their conversation they had in AOTC. Do you honestly think that is the first one they had? Remember, Anakin tells Palpy "your guidance more than my patience."

    I think a LOT of Anakin's personality change can be directly attributed to the influence Palpatine has over Anakin.
     
  21. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    "Furthermore, given the nature of his training, I find it odd that Anakin wouldn't have learnt humility etc. His training appears to be like a high school, as if Anakin grows arrogant because he's better than the other students. This further diminishes the pre-PT image of the Jedi. "

    This is one of the most exasperating things I've ever read around here.

    First of all, I don't know who's pre-PT image of the Jedi you're referring to, but it obviously wasn't that of George Lucas. He's illustrating that an organization can decay from within. It can happen to nations,companies, individuals, and it's happening with the Jedi. The Jedi have lost their humility and are blind to what is happening around them. Even when told that a Sith Lord is controlling the Senate by Dooku, Obi-Wan's response is "that's not possible, the Jedi would know."


    Well Yoda and Obi are the ones who have been teaching anakin, are they arrogant too? Did they forget to teach him humility? They've had 10 years with the kid

    And as for illustrating the deacy from within - all we get is Yoda mentioning the arrogance of some other Jedis, why/how are they arrogant? Again we don't know, it's not shown.

    It's the same with Anakin - his change of character is poorly shown, he starts off grumpy and goes all the way to -- grumpy.
    I think it would've worked a lot better if we'd seen him go from heroic, charming to risk-taking, over-confidence, cockiness etc. and then when faced with a situation he can't win - his mother's death - it changes him, he can't handle losing, he can't face the pain etc.
    g
     
  22. anidanami124

    anidanami124 Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 24, 2002
    Well Yoda and Obi are the ones who have been teaching anakin, are they arrogant too? Did they forget to teach him humility? They've had 10 years with the kid.

    Yoda did not teach Anakin anything. Obi-wan is the only one that trained Anakin.
     
  23. Darthkarma

    Darthkarma Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2000
    I think it would've worked a lot better if we'd seen him go from heroic, charming to risk-taking, over-confidence, cockiness etc. and then when faced with a situation he can't win - his mother's death - it changes him, he can't handle losing, he can't face the pain etc

    Uh, did you forget about Episode I?
    You're entitled to think that but both Anakin's problems and good points were already in motion in Episode I. The groundwork for his character's transitions are set up there. We see even then that he specifically does not like change, which is one of the things that motivates his hunger for power, hoping that he can stop change. He was heroic in Episode I by winning the podrace and saving Naboo. He is fearful of losing his mother which sets up his rage in AOTC when he loses her.

    I think it worked just fine the way it's been laid out.

     
  24. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 1999
    "Yoda did not teach Anakin anything. Obi-wan is the only one that trained Anakin."

    Really? WHat part of the movie do they say that?

    Or this another thing we have to imagine? Please inform me oh wise sage.

    Keep this up I'm learning a lot. :)
     
  25. anidanami124

    anidanami124 Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 24, 2002
    Did you not watch TPM? Obi-wan was Anakin master right from the get go. Yoda never tought Anakin anything about.

    Really? WHat part of the movie do they say that?

    Or this another thing we have to imagine? Please inform me oh wise sage.

    Keep this up I'm learning a lot.


    By the way nice flame. [face_plain]
     
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