The flow of Anakin's character from TPM to AOTC

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by SLR, Oct 22, 2003.

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  1. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    Let's not get overly sensitive, that was hardly a flame.

    There's a certain irony about some of the arguments being put forth on this subject... it's sounding very much like the Matrix Syndrome. It's there in the films, we just don't 'get it'.

    I recall the outrage that such statements caused around the time of Reloaded's release.

    Anidanami - Your interpretation about the Jedi and Love is very good. I wonder if it is one that is shared by others (even Lucas himself).

    Like I've said before, I think many of these elements could have been realised more effectively with scenes that show rather than tell. Instead, Lucas felt it was more important for the story to show our 'flawed' heroes larking about in a droid factory.
  2. hanbaby Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2004
    star 1


    It's as clear as bright sunshine, one of the major reason's the Republic fell to the Emperor was the hubris of the Jedi. It's a major theme of the prequels, it just doesn't fit in with your presumptions about the Jedi or your preconceived ideas about the prequels. And this tragic flaw makes the Jedi and the story much more interesting and human.

    No! It's because of the power-mongering and corruption in the Senate that Palpatine/Sidious is able to steal ultimate power out from under everyone. If anything it's the Jedi's blind dutiful service to a corrupt senate that brings about their own downfall. They aren't fighters they are servants to the senate and the Chancellor. Their arrogance comes from their unyielding faith in the Force. In the end it's that devotion to the Republic which is their undoing. However that same faith is what ultimately leads them to destroy the Sith.

    Uh, did you forget about Episode I?
    You're entitled to think that but both Anakin's problems and good points were already in motion in Episode I. The groundwork for his character's transitions are set up there. We see even then that he specifically does not like change, which is one of the things that motivates his hunger for power, hoping that he can stop change. He was heroic in Episode I by winning the podrace and saving Naboo. He is fearful of losing his mother which sets up his rage in AOTC when he loses her.


    How can you say he doesn't like change, he gladly leaves his mother and goes off to be a Jedi. Pretty brave and hopeful in my book. What change are you referring to? He's already gone through the most major change a kid could possibly imagine, he doesnt see his mother for 10 years. It's too late for him to fix the "CHANGE", power will do him no good at this point. The fact that he's already lost his mother is what makes her death such a lame reason for him to turn evil IMO.

    Especially considering that his bad behavior happens way before he even goes to Tattooine. Her death is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I'd also like to "remind you" that:

    * When Anakin discusses dreaming about his mother, who he hasnt seen in 10 years, with Obi-Wan he changes the subject to Padme. (indicating that it's not that big of an issue with him and that he's not desperate to go see her. He had his chance to ask to check on her, but he's more intereted in talking about Padme)
    * He seems to be good friends with Palpatine who could easily check on Shmi for Anakin, but from what we see this never happens. (you ask us to use logic to fill in the blanks, well this is what I would logically do)
    * He then goes to Naboo where he spends his time trying to seduce Padme whom he knows he's not allowed to marry and it's only when she rejects him that he decides to go check on Shmi. (doesn't show a lot of concern)

    The point being that his fear for Shmi doesn't seem to be playing a very large part in his life or weighting on his psyche. He easily sets aside his concerns and concentrates on everything else besides her. His need for power IMP doesnt have anything to do with fear for Shmi but in his own grandiose ambitions.

    As GL has sad Anakin's problem is greed. He wants everything now. His rage isn't about Shmi it's about his pain at her loss. He's hurting so he wants to hurt back and thusly he strikes out at the ones who caused that pain. This reaction shows, lack of control, anger issues, cruelty, lack of compassion (do you notice I didn't mention arrogance? I don't think his arrogance has anything to do with the murders -- thus Palpatine has nothing to do with it and the Jedi persona has nothing to do with it. These are basic character flaws that arent learned after the age of 6 and certainly not while a kid is being trained as a jedi.)

    Sorry if your logic takes you there, but mine doesn't. From what I know about psychology, it just doesn't work like that. Therefore, there is either some major missing characterization in the 10 years since TPM or the TPM wasn't reflective of the true character of Anakin (which is my b
  3. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    * When Anakin discusses dreaming about his mother, who he hasnt seen in 10 years, with Obi-Wan he changes the subject to Padme. (indicating that it's not that big of an issue with him and that he's not desperate to go see her. He had his chance to ask to check on her, but he's more intereted in talking about Padme

    Hmmm having a baddreams/nightmares about something bad happening to your mother vs dreaming about a girl you love. Also note that Obi-wan is the one who told Anakin that dreams pass in time. In other words he does not want him to think about it ether.

    * He seems to be good friends with Palpatine who could easily check on Shmi for Anakin, but from what we see this never happens.

    Do you really think Palpatine is going to care about Shmi?

    * He then goes to Naboo where he spends his time trying to seduce Padme whom he knows he's not allowed to marry and it's only when she rejects him that he decides to go check on Shmi.

    She does not reject him. And if missed the part where he had another nightmare about his mother. A really bad one. In fact when Padme asks him about it. He says Jedi don't dream. Then when she says he heard him. He comes out and tells her that he feels her pain. And he has know come to the point that he does not care what the Jedi or Obi-wan said he is going to go save his mother.

    The point being that his fear for Shmi doesn't seem to be playing a very large part in his life or weighting on his psyche. He easily sets aside his concerns and concentrates on everything else besides her. His need for power IMP doesnt have anything to do with fear for Shmi but in his own grandiose ambitions.

    Again you missed the part where he tells Padme about not being able to save his mother.

    Maybe GL should have used some of the book because it really shows that Anakin is having nightmares about bad things happening to his Mother.

    Obi-wan even sees that Anakin does not look well.
  4. hanbaby Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2004
    star 1
    Hmmm having a baddreams/nightmares about something bad happening to your mother vs dreaming about a girl you love. Also note that Obi-wan is the one who told Anakin that dreams pass in time. In other words he does not want him to think about it ether.

    That is Obi-Wan trying to open up a discussion with Anakin about what's bothering him. Instead of Anakin discussing his concerns and perhaps asking for a way to check on her he throws his opportunity away so he can discuss Padme. This shows a callousness and a lack of true concern. It seems like he's discounting them because he thinks it's a little weird like he hasn't dreamed or even thought about her much in the last 10 years. Further evidenced by the scene in the elevator where he talks about thinking of Padme everyday for the last 10 years.

    Do you really think Palpatine is going to care about Shmi?

    No. But I think he cares that Anakin thinks he cares. He's trying to seduce Anakin to the Sith, befriend him and make Anakin loyal to him rather than the Jedi. What better way would there be than for him to check on Shmi for Anakin. The point is Anakin has means open to him, specifically a friend in the highest of places. Also Anakin is clearly not concerned about Jedi rules, since he tries to seduce Padme and is willing to enter into a forbidden relationship. So that can't be it.

    She does not reject him. And if missed the part where he had another nightmare about his mother. A really bad one. In fact when Padme asks him about it. He says Jedi don't dream. Then when she says he heard him. He comes out and tells her that he feels her pain. And he has know come to the point that he does not care what the Jedi or Obi-wan said he is going to go save his mother.

    It looked like a rejection to me. She said No! The rest of that supports what I'm saying. He has been having these dreams then all the sudden now that Padme has rejected him (oh excuse me turned down his offer) he's willing to concentrate on his concern for Shmi again and check on her. Even if that means abandoning his mission(going awol) and on top of it taking the senator who has half the bounty hunters in the galaxy looking for her to kill into the most lawless regions of the galaxy (den of scum and villainy). In essence taking her out of hiding and exposing her to grave danger. Thats not very logical.

    Maybe GL should have used some of the book because it really shows that Anakin is having nightmares about bad things happening to his Mother.

    I get that he's having dreams about bad things happening to his mother. My point is that he's not worried enough or bothered enough to do anything about it. If he's so close to this woman or still feels bonded then why didnt he make an attempt? From what's shown in the movie it looks like he's not that close to her. That's not to say he doesn't love her, but it's more like an Aunt that you used to be close to but havent seen in years. You have affection and even love, but there is no child/parent bond. This happens alot when a child is put into a foster home, they don't see their parents for 3-4 years and the closeness disappears. They transfer their dependency and the bond to the foster parent. NOt always but 80% of the time, especially when the child is under 12.

    It seems that George is showing us that instead of Anakin wanting to go check on his mother that the Force wills it and pushes him until he gives in. My question would be for what purpose other than to put the choice in front of him, embrace your Jedi teachings or choose the darkside. It was in essence his test and he failed. In fact could be that the Chosen One has in fact chosen, it's just that he and the Jedi just dont realize it yet.

  5. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    That is Obi-Wan trying to open up a discussion with Anakin about what's bothering him.

    No Obi-wan was not opening up anything for discussion. All he said was dreams pass in time. In other words he was telling him to get over it.


    Even if that means abandoning his mission(going awol) and on top of it taking the senator who has half the bounty hunters in the galaxy looking for her to kill into the most lawless regions of the galaxy (den of scum and villainy). In essence taking her out of hiding and exposing her to grave danger.

    Padme: I will go with you. ?[face_plain] She will go with him. Why will she go with him? Oh becuase she knows that if the Jedi find out he just up and felt her they would not be to happy. Kind of like when Anakin said they had to say on Tatooine. He was waiting for her to give the ok.


    I get that he's having dreams about bad things happening to his mother. My point is that he's not worried enough or bothered enough to do anything about it.

    It only started up with and if you go by the books a week or so ago in AOTC time. Before that hsi mother was safe and sound.

    If he's so close to this woman or still feels bonded then why didnt he make an attempt? From what's shown in the movie it looks like he's not that close to her.

    Because he is with Obi-wan training. The Jedi are not going to let him go see his mother nether is Yoda or anyone else. The Jedi are not allowed to see there loved. They are not allowed to see there parents. That is why they are taken at us a young age.

    Anakin can't just say I'm going to see my mother Obi-wan. Obi-wan will not let him do that. Anakin wanted to bo save Padme when she fell out of the ship. Obi-wan would not let him.
  6. JohnWesleyDowney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2004
    star 5
    How can you say he doesn't like change, he gladly leaves his mother and goes off to be a Jedi.

    Because there's a scene where lil Ani specifically tells his mother he doesn't want things to change and she tells him you can't stop change anymore than you stop the suns from setting. Also Lucas refers to this as a character trait of Anakin in the AOTC DVD commentary, that he doesn't want change, he wants to freeze moments in time instead of letting things taking their natural course.

    He gladly leaves his mother? I thought that was a tearful farewell. They weren't all smiles.

    As for the rest of your points, think what you like.
    I've already stated what I think and I stand by it.
    To each his own. :)
  7. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Did you not watch TPM? Obi-wan was Anakin master right from the get go. Yoda never tought Anakin anything about."

    Obi-wan is definitely Anakin's master, but Anakin must talk to Yoda from time to time, surely he must pass on pearls of wisdom to him thats all I meant.
  8. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    Anakin can't just say I'm going to see my mother Obi-wan. Obi-wan will not let him do that. Anakin wanted to bo save Padme when she fell out of the ship. Obi-wan would not let him.

    Where is it stated that ObiWan has forbidden Anakin contact with his mother?

    ObiWan not wanting Anakin to go to Padme when she falls out is a very different situation than the Shmi one. ObiWan gives his reason in the movie - he needs Anakin's help taking down Doofus.

    I noticed that you referred to the book... that's not really canon.
  9. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    That does not mean that Yoda is his master or is his teacher.

    Where is it stated that ObiWan has forbidden Anakin contact with his mother?

    Attachment is forbidden. Attachment to who? Oh I don't know how about his mother.

    Also from Padme: No being able to visit the places you like. Or do the things you like.

    And Anakin saying be with the people I love. That being his mother and Padme.
  10. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    That does not mean that Yoda is his master or is his teacher.

    This sounds strangely familiar. Wasn't this the 20 year old assumption of ObiWan's training from the OT....? (before it was shattered in TPM with the introduction of this QuiGon Jinn character)
  11. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
  12. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    Im sure Anakin learned a few things from Yoda, in particular by telling Padme "..let go of our pride and do what is expected of us", which was after Yoda told him "until caught this killer is, our judgement she must respect".

    Here, Yoda seems to "instruct" Anakin.



  13. hanbaby Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2004
    star 1
    No Obi-wan was not opening up anything for discussion. All he said was dreams pass in time. In other words he was telling him to get over it.

    No. Obi-Wan says "You look tired". Anakin answers "I've been dreaming of my mother." Obi-Wan says: "Dreams Pass in time" (( I interpret this as Obi-Wan showing concern for his Padawan and comforting him -- everyone has bad dreams once in a while.)) The next logical response from a concerned Anakin would be: " I think she maybe in danger." Obi-Wan could have responded "Why do you think that. However what we get is Anakin changing the subject to Padme. I'd that rather think of Padme. Meaning that he doesn't want to think about his mother. No concern, no sense of urgency nothing. Why?

    Padme: I will go with you. She will go with him. Why will she go with him? Oh becuase she knows that if the Jedi find out he just up and felt her they would not be to happy. Kind of like when Anakin said they had to say on Tatooine. He was waiting for her to give the ok.

    So are you saying this Jedi who is charged by the Chancellor himself with the duty of protecting the senator is helpless? He could have easily refused her and made her stay with her security forces or other Jedi,or better yet finish his mission and asked the Chancellor or the Jedi to check on his mother. No, this supposed "hero" allows the woman he claims to love put herself in danger to protect him from getting in trouble with the Jedi when just the night before he's willing to break his vows and enter into a forbidden relatinship? That is totally illogical and illustrates the problem with the writing. It makes no sense and it really suggests that Anakin is already tainted.


    It only started up with and if you go by the books a week or so ago in AOTC time. Before that hsi mother was safe and sound.

    How does he know his mother is safe and sound if he's unable to contact her?

    Because he is with Obi-wan training. The Jedi are not going to let him go see his mother nether is Yoda or anyone else. The Jedi are not allowed to see there loved. They are not allowed to see there parents. That is why they are taken at us a young age.

    How do you know they arent allowed to contact them? How do you know they are not allowed to see them? The Zen religions allow their followers to maintain contact with their families. THe concept of no attachments is a very general term. WE can grow attached to possessions as well as loved ones. It makes no sense for them to disallow love, the padawans love their masters. The attachment they refer to is in a possessive sense. It is a budhist concept of total trust in a greater force to allow events to flow as they will. You give up control and power over situations and accept. I think Anakin is allowed to love Padme (including sex as GL has said),but he's not allowed to enter into an exclusive relationship like marriage where he'll be faced with conflicting responsibilities and loyalties. He must as a jedi devote himself first and foremost to the Force. Thats why Obi-Wan allows him to escort Padme back to Naboo. He clearly sees the growing love and has no objection as long as it stays as an unformalized relationship. It's Anakin who wishes to enter into an exclusive possessive relationship (ie marriage) with Padme, which clearly breaks his vows as a jedi.

    Anakin can't just say I'm going to see my mother Obi-wan. Obi-wan will not let him do that. Anakin wanted to bo save Padme when she fell out of the ship. Obi-wan would not let him.

    Where is it shown or said that Anakin cant say that?

    That is a night and day difference, Obi-Wan wouldnt let Anakin stop the transport because they are tryng to defeat Dooku and stop the war before it starts. That fall wasnt going to kill Padme and Anakin knew it. He was letting his emotions over-ride what was right. That was just plain stupid and selfish on his part. He's going to put his personal wants over what needs to be done in a combat situtation. That is court-martial kind of behavior. As Obi-Wan states
  14. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    So are you saying this Jedi who is charged by the Chancellor himself with the duty of protecting the senator is helpless? He could have easily refused her and made her stay with her security forces or other Jedi,or better yet finish his mission and asked the Chancellor or the Jedi to check on his mother.

    No is first job is to keep Padme safe. He can't just do what ever he wants to. When Obi-wan said to stay on Naboo he meant it. He's job was not to go save his mother when ever he felt like it. If his master told him no then it's a no.

    this supposed "hero" allows the woman he claims to love put herself in danger to protect him from getting in trouble with the Jedi when just the night before he's willing to break his vows and enter into a forbidden relatinship?

    Because Anakin was not allowed to leave Padme. She new this. She also new the risk.

    How does he know his mother is safe and sound if he's unable to contact her?

    Oh I don't know he was not having nightmares about bad things happening to her.

    How do you know they arent allowed to contact them? How do you know they are not allowed to see them?

    Because they are Jedi. They are taken from there familys forma very young age. The day they are born. They are not allowed to see there parents. Because a Jedi must be above the need of a mother and a father, or even a lover. When they become a Jedi they for go all the things they ever wanted. They are not allowed to go to the places they want when ever they want. Or be with those they love. Because they have a more importent job to do. That is to keep the galaxy safe.

    Also be keeping them form knowing about there parents, they keep them from going to the dark side.

    Anakin was to old to train to be a Jedi. He was set in his ways he knew the love of his mother and would do anything to keep her safe. In TPM he did not even want to leave her. Shmi herself told him to go.
  15. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    Because they are Jedi. They are taken from there familys forma very young age. The day they are born. They are not allowed to see there parents. Because a Jedi must be above the need of a mother and a father, or even a lover. When they become a Jedi they for go all the things they ever wanted. They are not allowed to go to the places they want when ever they want. Or be with those they love. Because they have a more importent job to do. That is to keep the galaxy safe.

    Where is this stated in the movie? (this is what we're getting at...) If this is 'implied', please list the specific scenes/dialogue/hints that are relevant.

    Furthermore, this strict code is clearly at odds with the fact that Jedi are clearly shown in the movies as capable of developing bonds of friendship - which is just as potent a manifestation of love as fancying that cute girl next door or endearment to ones' parents.

    Also be keeping them form knowing about there parents, they keep them from going to the dark side.

    An interesting if flawed argument. Of course, the first aspect to your case is it's origin. Where from the movies so far have you ascertained that this is why Jedi are taken away from their parents?

    Secondly, is there any indication that any Sith has ever turned because something happened with their parents? Anakin's mother has died, does he turn to the Dark Side? No... he comes back after a brief spell, gets forgiven by his nonchalant girlfriend and becomes the hero again. Let's look at Darth Maul... why did he turn bad? Of course the EU covers that in little details but that's not applicable here - so why is he evil? We're not told (in fact, Maul is wholly underdeveloped). What about Palaptine? His motivation appears from the movies to be entirely about the Power.

    So not only is this theory developed from outside the movie, but it's also unfounded given what the movie does say...

    In fact, the very fact that no Sith has emerged to the Jedi in a 1000 years indicates that no precautions are needed when training new Jedi... why do the Jedi live by such strict codes if the Sith are extinct (and they believe their return an impossibility)...?

    Am I expecting too much from the film if it breaks it's own bonds of logic?


    EDIT Now that I think about it, considering that the only people the Jedi are allowed to have feelings for are their colleagues (without parents and outside lovers) the bonds of friendship are going to be very strong - like brothers.

    Now if your best and only friends were then to get killed then why would this be any better than having your parents 'used against' you?
  16. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    An interesting if flawed argument.[/i]


    From Padme: Not being able to visit the places you like. Or do the things you like.

    Anakins Line: Or be with the people I love.

    Attachment is forbidden. But Attachment to who? Well let's run down the list:

    Attachment to mom, dad, and person who want to marry.

    That friendship Obi-wan has with Dex is not the same thing that Anakin has with his mother. He has any Attachment to her. Any attachment that he should not have. All Jedi are taken from the day they are bron to be trained as Jedi. They don't have that Attachment to mom or dad to hold them back druing there training. Anakin has the Attachment to his mother and Padme. That's what is holding him back. Obi-wan is not holding him back at all.
  17. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    So the kids that become Jedis have no say in the matter. When the y commit to the jedi order, they can't even speak, so basically they are just brainwashed into the jedi belief system and have to give up marriage, family parents, and any sense of a normal life. They have all this taken from them at birth and have no say in the matter? Thats sad. And doesn;t paint the jedi in a good light.

    "Because they are Jedi. They are taken from there familys forma very young age. The day they are born. They are not allowed to see there parents. Because a Jedi must be above the need of a mother and a father, or even a lover. When they become a Jedi they for go all the things they ever wanted."

    It would be nice if this had been addressed in the movies, especially before AOTC where it seemingly comes out of left field that the Jedi are raised from such a young age and are not allowed families. I would never have guess from watching TPM that they aren;t allowed to marry or talk to their parents, nobody did.

    "How do you know they arent allowed to contact them? How do you know they are not allowed to see them? The Zen religions allow their followers to maintain contact with their families. THe concept of no attachments is a very general term. WE can grow attached to possessions as well as loved ones. It makes no sense for them to disallow love, the padawans love their masters."

    You're right. Obi-wan clearly loved Qui-gon.
    The logic that love and attachment to people makes little sense. I understand what people are saying that it can have bad results like Anakins situation, but by this logic we should not allow cops, or doctors, or the president, or key military personel to have attachments such as spouses and families. What if Bush's wife got killed, he might nuke the world right? Not likely.
  18. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    It would be nice if this had been addressed in the movies, especially before AOTC where it seemingly comes out of left field that the Jedi are raised from such a young age and are not allowed families. I would never have guess from watching TPM that they aren;t allowed to marry or talk to their parents, nobody did.[/i]

    Hmmmmmm let's see:

    Obi-wan: He's to old master.

    Yoda: Your to old to being the training.


    In other words Anakin and Luke should not have been trained at all. They were both to old. Luke just go lucky that he did not go down the dark path like Anakin.
  19. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    You still haven't addressed the fact that in the absence of parents the Jedi bonds of friendship would be stronger. Why is ObiWan losing a surrogate father better than Anakin loosing his mother? You've seen the moment of anger in ObiWan's face when he's facing Maul. You've seen the disappointment in his face when all those Jedi have been slain in the arena.

    Why doesn't Yoda stop Doofus instead of that column? Because he cares about ObiWan and Anakin, above that of the greater good which conflicts with your notion that the Jedi live entirely for the Republic - it's a huge leap of logic to suggest that an 800 year old Jedi - raised from an age of less than 9 - suddenly goes against everything he's ever been taught!

    And what precisely is this age that the Jedi should begin their training?

    Luke was clearly too old because he was a grown adult, but Anakin is 9 - the ripest age to begin schooling!


    EDIT

    Luke just go lucky that he did not go down the dark path like Anakin.

    I wouldn't call it luck at all. Luke was more pure of heart than his father. Because, ironically, he was raised by good simple folk.

    To use outside knowledge for a moment. Everything we know about the Sith indicates that they turn to the Dark Side for power. Parents have nothing to do with it.

    If anything, it's the lack of LOVE that makes Jedi turn to the Dark Side.
  20. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Why is ObiWan losing a surrogate father better than Anakin loosing his mother?

    Qui-gon is not a father. He's a master a very good one at that. Anakin lossing his mother is a bad thing because:

    A) He is to set in his ways because of his mother.

    B) He has a Attachment to his mother.

    Obi-wan well he may see Qui-gon as a father. He knows that Qui-gon is just his master. But the big differcen there is that Obi-wan understands that where as Anakin does not.

    Note Obi-wan was able to see what was happening to him self when he was fighting Maul. He stopped himself from going all the way to the dark side. Anakin was not able to do that. Obi-wan did not have the attachment of a real mother or father like Anakin.
  21. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    But the movie shows us that Anakin's attachment isn't as strong as you say it is. If it was truly strong, and given the nature of Anakin's somewhat reckless character, he would have found a way to contact her at least, and go AWOL to see her.

    But he doesn't, and there's no indication that he's EVER tried.

  22. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    But the movie shows us that Anakin's attachment isn't as strong as you say it is. If it was truly strong, and given the nature of Anakin's somewhat reckless character, he would have found a way to contact her at least, and go AWOL to see her.

    Red he can't contact her. He is not allowed. Because he is not allowed to have attachments to the people he loves. That being his mother and Padme. He is not even allowed to go back to see her.

    Again Padmes line: Not being able to go the place you love, etc.

    He can't just do what ever he want's and Obi-wan and the rest of the master made sure of that until he went on his first mission. Which at that point with out the other Jedi masters he was able to go back to Tatooine with out the Jedi knowing.
  23. ShaakRider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    star 2
    All Jedi are taken from the day they are bron to be trained as Jedi. They don't have that Attachment to mom or dad to hold them back druing there training.

    But being in contact with one's relatives or friends isn't necessarily attachment. Shmi loves Anakin, but lets him go. Obi-Wan loves Qui-Gon, gets pissed off when he's slain, but manages to control himself finally. Luke loses his aunt&uncle, his mentor, his childhood friend and his father, all of whom he loved, but he still doesn't turn to the Dark Side. Even Anakin, with proper help would be able to get rid of his attachment, while still loved his mother.
    Besides, that would be a strange message of a film that "people raised by their parents better not get any power because they will become evil. Raise them under sterile, emotionless circumstances instead and they'll be all right"
    I think the no attachment thing is more like the coelibacy in some churches, it deserves keeping the focus of people with great responsibility on their duties. Like Luke going after his friends or Anakin after his mother. It must be very hard not to try to help people we love when they're in trouble, except if we're trained to do so from a very young age (not necessarily from birth, i don't know much about psychology, so don't know exactly) and i wouldn't even call it attachment. And it develops among the Jedi, as some already pointed out, even with being trained from birth. I don't see why is it good for the Jedi to completely forbid familiar relationships, things like someone going off for a couple of days once in a few year to visit his/her family shouldn't be a problem, imho.

    Red he can't contact her. He is not allowed. Because he is not allowed to have attachments to the people he loves.
    Not allowed and can't is completely different. I bet he wasn't allowed to phantasize about Padme too, yet he did so (and he did a lot of other things he wasnt allowed to). I admit contacting his mother under Obi-Wav's nose is a more difficult task, but not necessarily impossible.
  24. SLR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2002
    star 5
    Excellent points about Jedi's and attachments. I don't see any difference between the bonds that padawans and masters make and the bonds of parents. It isn't the attachments that are the problems. Its Anakin's greed and inability to handle change and accept things the way that they are.

    Anidanami, AOTC did portray an Anakin that is willing to buck the rules of the Order when it suits him. He has also showed a willingness to disobey his master.
  25. hanbaby Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2004
    star 1
    From Padme: Not being able to visit the places you like. Or do the things you like.

    Anakins Line: Or be with the people I love.


    So this is what you're basing all those Jedi rules on?
    You have quite an imagination to go from this to the Jedi arent allowed to love, see their parents, contact anyone etc... The first line is kind of hard to interpret since we know the Jedi travel all over the galaxy. So not sure what she means, or perhaps she is really in the dark about the Jedi. In the 2nd line he's definitely refering to being with her in the way that he wants (in an exclusive/possessive relationship).

    Perhaps she's saying that because he is a Jedi he must do his duty and go where the Jedi tell him. He must ask permission. HOwever isnt that the same with her, she is a senator and must go where she is needed and do her duty. Any civil servant or employee is in the same boat for the most part. This whole scene is Anakin educating Padme on the Jedi philosphy of love and attachments, which he defines as unconditional love or compassion.

    She says incorrectly: "Are you even allowed to love?" He says: "We are encouraged to love everyone. I would define that as unconditional love." (I know these aren't the exact quotes, but they are close). So love isnt the problem, contact isnt the problem it's the type of love thats the problem. As is the case in the Zen philosphy of no possessions ie: no possessive love.

    You only assume Anakin isn't allowed to see his mother because he doesnt but there's absolutely nothing in the films to suggest this. He may have to ask permission, he certainly can't take off when he wants, but no 9 year old would be Jedi or not.

    Obi-Wan doesn't seem to be restricted in any way nor did Qui-Gon Jinn. They faced situations and made decisions as to how to proceed and where to go on their own. Example: Obi-Wan contacting Dex, Obi-Wan taking Anakin as a padawan against the council and Yoda's wishes, Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan stopping on Tatooine, Qui-Gon betting on Anakin and bringing Anakin back. They seem to be very independent individuals who make decisions based on their own logic and instincts. They follow the will of the Force and act on it. The Jedi don't seem to be very restrictive at all.

    Why you think Anakin is somehow a slave within the order is beyond what I see. He seems quite comfortable breaking orders and doing as he wishes throughout AOTC. That's why it's so unbelievable, that Anakin who is shown to be very rebellious and unconcerned with authority didn't contact his mother before. It's illogical.
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