Saga The Foibles and Flaws of the Jedi

Mostly agree but I think what also played a part is that Vader saw that the Dark Side could be resisted.
Luke came close but did not turn. He was able to conquer his hate and not let it rule him.
So Vader sees that there is still hope for him. Luke showed him the way.

I think Vader knew very well that Luke would die if he did not join them.
But when it cam down to it, he could not stand idly by and let his son be killed.

About the idea that Yoda/Obi-Wan knew that Vader could be turned back and lied/manipulated Luke to do exactly that.

That to me does a huge disservice to Luke as a character.
Yes he has been used and lied to by Yoda/Obi-Wan and Vader/Palpatine want him to further their own goals.
But that he was able to see what none of the others could, that there was still good in Vader, he could be turned back.
That is something truly his, his achievement.

If Yoda and Obi-Wan knew that as well and simply lied to Luke to get him to follow the path they had laid out for him.
That makes him much lesser, now he has no unique insight, nothing truly his.
He is just a pawn, following a plan that others have made for him.

Also, Yoda and Obi-Wan lied to him or at the very least kept things from him.
When he finds out that Vader is his father, he calls them on it.
So if they keep lying/omitting things in order to manipulate him further.
That makes them quite bad. They lied and when called upon it, they keep lying.

Right without malice. That is why they like to dismember those threats and leave them to burn.
You have argued that a jedi is forbidden from ending suffering.
That if an enemy is dying from a wound that the Jedi caused, the Jedi is not allowed to ease their passing, to end the torment.They should just leave them to die slowly and horribly.

No malice?
Hardly.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Yep. And that, by definition, the dark side cannot be all powerful. Vader presumed that if anyone was to see it the way he chose to see it, thereby validating all his choices thus far, it would be his son. Luke forced Vader to actually be a father, which is more important, more potent than anything else.

 

That wasn't malice. It may have seemed that way, but it wasn't malice. It was an act that broke Obi-wan and was something that he would have to live with. Also, I never said that a Jedi wouldn't ease the suffering. I said that Obi-wan couldn't bring himself to help him anymore, but couldn't bring himself to break his oath as a Jedi to not kill a helpless person. He left him to burn since it was the only solution. It wasn't meant to be an act that was looked upon kindly. It was meant to be morally gray. Yoda would have probably decapitated Anakin before he was ignited, or had gone straight for a killing blow when Anakin was in mid air.

But it still becomes Luke's choice to kill or save his father. They put Luke on the path, but do not tell him what choice to make. He has to stand on his own and figure things out for himself. It's the same way that Qui-gon is run through and Obi-wan has to decide to be a Jedi or be a Sith, when facing Maul on his own. Or Obi-wan was knocked out when Anakin kills Dooku and is off fighting Grievous. Same with Rey facing Ben without Han there to help her, or Luke later on. It is a task meant for one to figure out their place in everything. It is their own personal trial. Luke has to figure out if he wants to be a Jedi Knight, or a Sith Lord. If he has someone telling him to kill or save his father, then how can he make tough decisions on his own?

They're not really manipulating Luke into killing or saving Vader. They just tell him to confront him and remember his Jedi training. It was up to Luke to do the rest.


Let's bring up "The Matrix". Which would have been more effective: the Oracle telling Neo that he is the One or lying to him, in order for him decide that he is the One? According to the films, Neo would have rejected the truth because he doesn't believe in destiny and doesn't believe himself to be something that he feels that he is not. But in being lied to, he starts to believe because he rejects destiny and an impossible choice.

 

Absolutely this. And remember that Kasdan, and Lucas at this time (ROTJ), was heavily influenced by Zen Buddhism. The whole timbre of the Yoda's, and to an extent Obi-Wan's, teachings are zen - "There is no why"...facing the dragon in the cave (to face one's own darkness), getting Luke to learn by and through his own experiences and thinking are fundamental zen teaching methods. When Yoda tells Luke he has to confront Vader, he may not even mean it literally, as in that (the physical) Vader - it is his own Vader he has to confront (as with the cave on Dagobah).

To have understood what the Jedi were teaching him is not in any way belittling, it does not diminish Luke's achievement - it is exactly what the Jedi stand for (what 'doing' Jedi is) that Anakin rejected. It is his own Vader that Luke confronts and rejects.

To be told, you must do this, or this is what you must believe...that is not what the Jedi want, it is through understanding yourself fully that you will come to the right conclusion..or not.

And this does have a pretty fundamentally wide-spread universality; from Gnothi Sauton (know thyself) from the temple of Apollo in Delphi, to the parable of the splinter and the beam in the eye, to the Quran's exposition that the first and greatest Jihad is against oneself.

 

Except that in ESB, Yoda said everything depends on stopping Vader and his Emperor.
So Yoda isn't really talking about confronting some metaphysical Vader or some darker part of Luke.
Vader and the Emperor must be "conquered", "stopped" and in RotS "destroy" was used.
The tree was a failure as that showed that Luke was ill-equipped to confront the darkness that Vader was.

So they are not training him for his own sake, they train him to do a job.
Destroy/conquer/stop/kill Vader and Palpatine.

I think it does.
First, I always liked the idea that Luke was the only one who could still feel the light in his father.
Obi-Wan and Yoda did not and Palpatine was certain it was of no concern.
Luke, in this instance, was more wise than all of them.
He had an insight none of them had and a stronger faith.
If both of them reached the conclusion that Vader could be redeemed a while ago, then Luke has nothing that is his.

Second, if the idea is that Obi-Wan and Yoda, from day one, trained Luke with the goal to turn Vader back and he would in turn kill the Emperor. That they NEVER intended for Luke to kill Vader.
This becomes a plot hole.
In RotS, there is no doubt, KILLING Anakin is what Obi-Wan is sent to do.
Yoda makes it clear that Anakin is gone, only Vader remains.
So how come they suddenly changed their minds?
Why? When?
The film has nothing that in any way hints that they have changed their minds about Vader.

Third, they lied to Luke and he called them on it. So for them to keep lying to him.
To keep manipulating him and saying the opposite of what they really want him to do.
That makes them lesser in my view.

[/QUOTE]

But the PT Jedi are exactly this, they are given a whole bunch of rules.
You must be this, you must never feel that, or do this and so on.
Know your parents? Forbidden.
Have a family? Forbidden.
Feel romantic love, Forbidden.

The PT are all about having all Jedi be made the same way and in the same mold.
Train them from a very young age, make sure they are raised in a very controlled environment.
Very strict rules and dogma are enforced.
Who is can be a Jedi is determined by something as simple as a blood test.
Who the person is, how they are like, not important.
A scientific test is all we need.

Also, about the first Matrix.
There you had something that could not be told, Neo needed to believe.
He had been told several times he was the one but he didn't really believe it himself.
So if the Oracle had told him as well, that would juts be one more person telling him something he did not believe.
Only by action and developing that faith himself was he able to become the One.
Also, the Oracle was breaking the mold here. She knew how this was supposed to go and took steps to break the cycle.
And even she did not know it would work or what would happen.
If Yoda and Obi-Wan knew all along that Vader would turn back and kill Palpatine and they just had to nudge Luke along, that makes it very much less of a story to me.

Lastly, the second and third film very much muddled the concepts of the first film and became much less good.

Except that you have many times argued that Jedi can NOT kill the helpless.
That is against the code and all that.
Once Anakin has been dismembered, he is helpless.
So if you say that Yoda would then have finished him off, that is in total contradiction to all the times you said that the Jedi do not do that.
You have argued that Mace broke the code when trying to kill Palpatine, and Palpatine wasn't actually helpless.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

It was Luke's failure for himself, not against Vader. That's why Luke sees his face underneath the helmet as he is seeing what he will become if he lets his fear, anger and hate dictate his actions. It wasn't that he was ill-equipped to deal with Vader, but a warning about where he will go if he faces him with the hubris of his own soul.

They're training Luke for his sake as much as they are to destroy the Sith. One cannot be done without the other. Luke must confront his own demons in order to defeat the Sith. If they simply wanted the Sith destroyed, they would have trained both Skywalkers from birth to do the job.

Except that what is his is that he succeeded where they failed. He can lay claim to saving his father's soul and proving that the dark side can be defeated from within. That it is possible to come back from the dark side. They could not save Anakin, but Luke could.

A lot can change in twenty years. They acknowledge that the Sith have to be destroyed in order to bring balance to the Force and that it would be a giant step towards ending the war. But how exactly it needs to be carried out is an entirely different matter. The fact that they went at them straight on didn't work. It couldn't work. The Sith had the high ground this time. A different approach was required.

EZRA: "Which way is the right way?"

YODA: "The wrong question, that is."

EZRA: "I'm sorry. I don't understand. To be honest, I don't even know what I'm doing here."

YODA: "A better question, that is."

EZRA: "Kanan said I was gonna be tested, but he never said what for or why."

YODA: "And your Master tell you everything, must he?"

EZRA: "Well...no."

YODA: "Your path you must decide."

Then Luke can never be a Jedi if all he is doing is following orders. How can Luke trust his own instincts and take leaps of faith? Doesn't that just make him a puppet if he's told to kill or save his father? The point of the Jedi trial is for the Jedi to come to an understanding about themselves and the Force. Obi-wan realizes that he is only a Jedi if he let's go of his fear, anger and hate over Qui-gon's death. Kanan realizes that he is a Jedi when he accept that he cannot prevent Ezra from falling to the dark side and that he can only teach him to the best of his abilities. Luke realizes that he is a Jedi when he stops fighting the darkness within himself and let's go of it. Anakin becomes a Sith because Palpatine told him to kill Dooku and to choose between the Jedi and Padme.

They only tell Luke to confront Vader. He assumes that his confrontation must end in death. As Obi-wan told Ezra, he heard what he wanted to hear.

And Luke is taught the same way. He is told that he must not have any attachments. I didn't see a wife or a child running around in TFA and TLJ. He is told that he must not feel fear, anger and hate. He's told a bunch of rules as well.

Who is to be trained is determined by a Midichlorian test, yes. Who is to be allowed to take the trials is based on the person's training and experience.

QUI-GON: "Obi-Wan is ready..."

OBI-WAN: "I am ready to face the trials."

YODA: "Our own counsel we will keep on who is ready."

Right. If Luke is just told to kill his father or save him, then he cannot develop any faith of his own.

The Oracle didn't do anything to break the cycle. Neo did. It began with him developing an attachment to Trinity and continued with his ability to think much quicker than his predecessors. That's why the Architect is surprised when Neo starts figuring things out quicker than the others had. And why he points out that Neo is different because of Trinity. She also doesn't tell Neo how to end the war. Just that the path of the One ends at the Source and in Machine City, once he chose to leave the Architect and go to save Trinity. He still figures things out on his own without her telling him what to do, beyond confirming what he has suspected.

Right and in this case, Anakin would be helpless and Yoda would willingly break the Code in order to finish him off, putting his duty as a Jedi ahead of the Code and his oath to not kill a helpless person. I have also made that argument over the years. Obi-wan, on the other hand, felt that he couldn't break his oath and yet couldn't just disobey his mandate either. That's why he chooses on a compromise that is very morally dubious and it was a choice on Lucas's part to show why Vader hates him so much, but also why Luke is the better choice in this matter.

 

And this is the inherent flaw in the Jedi's preoccupation with their prophecy of the chosen one.

 

Still wrong.
They NEED Luke, primarily to destroy Vader and Palpatine.
And secondly to re-start the Jedi order.
If all at stake was Luke having a desire to be a Jedi and the Sith did not exist and the Jedi Order was still around. Yoda would likely not bother with Luke.

Luke still needs to pass the test in order to do those things but make no mistake.
The NEED of Yoda and Obi-Wan is why he is even allowed to be trained.

It is still a plot hole, a piece of the narrative is missing.
That you can make up stuff to explain it away does not make it less of a plot hole.

So if Yoda and Obi-Wan are still thinking that Vader and Palpatine must die, like they did in RotS, then no plot hole.
If they have for unknown reasons changed their minds, then plot hole.
Plus there is no onscreen evidence that either of them thought that Vader could be redeemed and plenty that says the total opposite.

Wrong, Luke is never told about attachments, neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan ever use the word.
He is told that his feelings and insight do him credit but that they could be turned against him.
So he was allowed those feelings but warned that they could be a danger.
The PT Jedi are forbidden these things.

Wrong again, of course he can.
He can be told to kill his father, and he pretty much was.
But his feelings and insight made him reject that and he had faith is his father.
Luke is told and shown a lot of Vader being evil.
That still doesn't make his faith go away.
The biggest blow is on Endor when Luke says "Then my father truly is dead."

He can also be told that there is a chance for redemption for Vader but if his feelings and insight don't bear that out, then he might act differently.

In short, Luke is told a lot of things but he makes up his own mind and goes with what his heart is telling him.

Sometimes that might not be for the best but even when Luke suffers a defeat, he still keeps his mind and heart open. And he learns.

Yes she does, she told Trinity that she would fall in love with the One.
Had she not said that, then Trinity would not have said what she did to Neo as he was dying and thus he would not come back as the One.
And as Trinity was key to make Neo break the chain, her doing this is very relevant.
Also, given what the Architect said in the third film, about her playing a dangerous game, that implies that she did knowingly and willingly broke the system of control that were the One.
Also, based on what Smith said, it seemed that she was in some responsible for him being the anti-One.

[/QUOTE]

Before you said this in regards to Obi-Wan putting Anakin out of his misery.
In the thread;
"Obi-Wan Once Thought As You Do ..."

So according to you, ending the suffering of a dying person would make a Jedi a Sith.

So if leaving someone to die slowly is morally grey, ending their suffering is, according to you, morally black.

Here you reject the idea that a Jedi can show mercy and put someone that is dying, from wounds the Jedi inflicted, out of their misery. This is very much malice.

So someone that is burning up and dying in agony, still wrong to end their suffering.
So according to you, the Jedi have zero problem with letting people they have been fighting, die very slowly and painfully.
They refuse to end suffering, even suffering they have caused.
So yes, the Jedi are quite full of malice.
Or they totally lack compassion.

Bye
The Guarding Dark

 

It's not about the prophecy. This is just the standard for all Jedi Padawans who take the trials. They have to do it on their own and figure out what it is that they have to do and understand who they are in the bigger picture. When Obi-wan fought Maul and bested him on Naboo, it wasn't about the prophecy. He was facing himself as much as he was facing his foe. Obi-wan comes to realize that he has an attachment to Qui-gon and that he must break that attachment if he is to survive, or else become consumed by it. When Anakin faces Dooku, he has all this anger and hate towards him for the threats that he has posed towards his loved ones. So when he is pressed to use the dark side, he does it. When Luke is going to kill Vader, he is being pressed into it by both Sith Lords. They're telling him what to do, but Luke remembers his training and his failure in the cave and thus he does not turn.

When it comes to destroying the Sith, it was always the duty of the Jedi to take them down. Not because of the prophecy, but because the Sith are their responsibility and they are a greater danger to everyone. The prophecy was the end result of actions that will occur, due to a number of factors that lead to it coming to pass.

It isn't the need of the Jedi, but the need of the galaxy that Luke be trained. But his training his important because if he were to just go against the Sith without the emotional tools necessary to deal with the Sith, he will become a Sith very quickly. And when there is no Sith around, Yoda would still train Luke and want him to train others, because they have a potential in their midst and that person needs to be trained, in order for the Jedi Arts to survive.

The Sith need to die, but how they die is what is more important. And no, there is no plenty of evidence that they want Vader dead. They just tell Luke to confront him. He makes the assumptions.

Those feelings were there in Obi-wan and Yoda, as well as the other Jedi. When Obi-wan tells him to bury his feelings, it is no different from what Anakin experienced or any other Jedi. All Jedi can be exploited in that way. That is why Jedi were trained to bury their own feelings as well. We see that in Dooku's battle with Anakin.

Luke was never told that he had to kill Vader when he faces him again. Just that he has to face him. He makes the assumption that he has to kill him. If Luke is told to save his father, is he doing this because he believes in him or is he doing this because he was told to do so? Which is more effective storytelling? Being allowed to figure things out on his own, or blindly following orders?

She told Trinity about her falling in love with Neo because she saw something that did not exist the previous five times. She told her what her future was the same way that she told Morpheus what his future was. She did not know what he was going to when he reached the Architect. Her manipulations would end there. The only thing she told Neo was that he already made up his mind about Trinity's death and that he would have to understand his choice when he gets there.

Not quite. Smith is the result of Neo and the Source needing to balance each other out. When Neo choose to destroy Agent Smith, he unwittingly separated him from the Source and left an imprint of the Source code behind. That same code that is in Neo and is needed to reconnect to the Source. The Oracle's role was in the creation of the Agents to follow the guideline in carrying out the role of the One. Those same Agents are then recycled into the next iteration of the Matrix which is why they know about what has come before. But she was not responsible for his evolution.

As to the Architect, he's referring to allowing herself to be assimilated by Smith and sending Neo to Machine City and forcing the machines to work with Neo. Mainly because there were too many variables that could have gone the opposite way that it did.

As I've said, Obi-wan was in a situation where he had to choose between his oath as a Jedi to not kill a helpless person and his oath to destroy the Sith Lord in front of him. He couldn't do either in a very decisive way, so he chose the middle ground. One that would end Vader without his having to deliver a killing blow. That's not malice. Malice is the desire or intention to do evil or ill will. Obi-wan did not intend to do evil, nor did he have animosity towards Anakin in his heart. Ergo, no malice. Yoda, on the other hand, would have killed Anakin outright, simply because he would place the oath of the Jedi to destroy the Sith above the other oath. Yoda wouldn't want his other Jedi to do it, but he would. Though, as I've also said, he would have gone for a killing blow when Anakin tried to jump over him and not dismemberment.

As to someone who is in agony, let us not forget that Ponda Baba was in agony as was Zam Wessel. Yet, Obi-wan did not kill them or do anything to elevate their pain.

 

Telling him until he's trained and able to handle it would not at all be good for Luke.

They really couldn't tell him. They also hoped that Vader wouldn't want to admit he was Anakin Skywalker once.

So between them telling him or maybe Vader their was no good choice. They also can't just stop him because that wouldn't work either. Obviously Yoda could stop Luke no problem because he could just send the X-Wing back into the swamp and there's nothing Luke could do about it.

That misses the point though as they have to let him chose his path. They can't manipulate it to what they want. If that was the case then their entire strategy would have been different from the get go.

Clearly it's one thing to hide but as soon as Luke started getting an inkling of the Force Vader could already sense his power. We don't know when Sidious felt it but it might have been anytime between ANH and TESB.

I agree that Obi-Wan and Yoda had no idea that Anakin could return. They thought he was long gone and not coming back.

 

Except Anakin, who has been predestined to be the chosen one to destroy the Sith. That's not developing faith on ones own.



By the way. It should be noted that Obi-wan had no qualms pumping several more blasts into Grievous's heart after the first one had hit its mark and was already burning the helpless cyborg from the inside out.

 

Starting with what you said last, totally agree, they thought that Anakin was gone and they did not have some master plan that Luke would turn Anakin back.

But that is what darth-sinister, argues.
That Yoda and Obi-Wan knew all along that Vader could be turned back and that is what they wanted Luke to do. No matter what they actually told him, they had a secret plan and were just nudging Luke along. Telling him small lies or big ones, or twisting facts or omitting things.
All to accomplish what they planned years ago.
Luke was never, ever intended to actually kill Vader, no, no!

This I don't agree with and I think this reasoning causes a plot hole with what they say in RotS, never mind what they say in the actual OT.

I also think it diminishes Luke. That he could see or feel what the other, arguably more powerful and experienced Force users, like Yoda, Obi-Wan and Palpatine, could not.
The good in his father.
If Yoda and Obi-wan had figured that out years ago and were deliberately keeping it from Luke just so they can manipulate him.
That does not sit well with me.

About them not telling Luke that Vader is his father.
I can sort of see that and Yoda tries to explain himself.
That Luke was not ready.

One could make the argument that they could have told him when it was clear that Luke was leaving anyway.
What options did they have?
If they don't tell him and Vader likewise does not, best case scenario for them really.
But what did they think would happen?
If Luke is captured or killed, they have lost badly.
And if Luke did somehow pull off the impossible and KILLS Vader.
What then?
Do they tell him afterwards?
"Yeah, Vader, the person you killed, he was actually your father.... sorry"
That would likely not go down well.

And if they don't tell him and Vader does, that could and almost did, destroy Luke.
It shattered his worldview. His image of his father, part of the reason why he wanted to become a Jedi.
And his faith in Yoda and Obi-Wan, that they would lie to him like this.
But he did manage to pull through and come out a better person.

If they do tell him and he stays, that is a win in their view.
And if he still leaves, then at least he is armed with this knowledge.

Assuming Luke would never have tried to leave, would they have told him eventually?
Either is possible.
It is possible that they planned to never tell Luke and Vader just forced their hand.
Or they would have told him when he was fully trained.
But how?
Would they have told him but then follow with "He is fully evil now, can't be turned back and all that."
And a Luke, that never had the experience with Vader in ESB, he might buy into that.
Totally believe that his father is dead and gone, Vader is just an evil zombie using his fathers body.
Would he have tried as hard to redeem him?
Maybe, maybe not.

No, you make a general argument, that Jedi are FORBIDDEN to kill the helpless or do mercy killings.
This goes way beyond Obi-Wan.
What you argue is that the Jedi code says, if a Jedi is faced with an enemy dying in agony, even from wounds the Jedi INFLICTED, they are still forbidden from ending their suffering.
They should just simply leave and let this person die in agony.
If they end that suffering, they become Sith.
So if you argue that Yoda would have ended Anakin's suffering, they you argue that Yoda is Sith material.
Oh by the way, neither Zam nor Ponda Baba were DYING!

This is what makes it malice to me. If you inflict or cause pain just because you enjoy people suffering that is really horrible.
Not as bad but still bad is to cause pain and suffering for no reason or not bothering to end suffering that you have caused even when it would require no or minimal effort on your behalf.
At best, it shows total indifference to others and a lack of empathy or compassion.

I remember some old comic-book, it takes place during some war and tanks are involved in the battle.
One tank loads some incendiary device and launches it at their enemies, who begin to burn.
One soldier in the tank says "I'll finish them off." but the other says "No. Let them burn."
That is is malice to me.
Letting people die slowly and painfully, from actions you caused and even tough you can end that suffering, you don't. That is all kinds of not nice.

Or take Blade Runner and Deckard and Pris.
He shoots her and she falls to the floor, screaming in agony. She is dying but she is hurt and really scared and so she screams her head off.
So Deckard shoots her again to end her suffering.
If he was your version of Jedi, he would just let her lie there, screaming until she died.
Deckard was really pained by this and it bothered him a lot, probably why he drinks like there is no tomorrow. But he still did it.

That is why what you said before

So if a Jedi is put in the position that they are faced with a threat were they sense no good and they decide to neutralize it.
In others words kill!
If they Jedi try kill their opponent but partly miss and instead inflict a fatal wound but one that will kill slowly and painfully.
If they Jedi looks at this person screaming in agony as they slowly die, for them to turn away and just leave.
That is not nice, it is quite unpleasant.
This person will still die, and die by the Jedi's hands.
So they can not avoid responsibility for that act.
So them preferring to have this person die horribly rather than take responsibility for their actions and show some compassion.
That is a fair bit of malice there.

And if their only excuse is "I would like to do something but this piece of paper says I can't."
That is not the actions of a good guy.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

But the PT Jedi are exactly this, they are given a whole bunch of rules.
You must be this, you must never feel that, or do this and so on.
Know your parents? Forbidden.
Have a family? Forbidden.
Feel romantic love, Forbidden.

The PT are all about having all Jedi be made the same way and in the same mold.
Train them from a very young age, make sure they are raised in a very controlled environment.
Very strict rules and dogma are enforced.
Who is can be a Jedi is determined by something as simple as a blood test.
Who the person is, how they are like, not important.
A scientific test is all we need.

Also, about the first Matrix.
There you had something that could not be told, Neo needed to believe.
He had been told several times he was the one but he didn't really believe it himself.
So if the Oracle had told him as well, that would juts be one more person telling him something he did not believe.
Only by action and developing that faith himself was he able to become the One.
Also, the Oracle was breaking the mold here. She knew how this was supposed to go and took steps to break the cycle.
And even she did not know it would work or what would happen.
If Yoda and Obi-Wan knew all along that Vader would turn back and kill Palpatine and they just had to nudge Luke along, that makes it very much less of a story to me.

Lastly, the second and third film very much muddled the concepts of the first film and became much less good.

Except that you have many times argued that Jedi can NOT kill the helpless.
That is against the code and all that.
Once Anakin has been dismembered, he is helpless.
So if you say that Yoda would then have finished him off, that is in total contradiction to all the times you said that the Jedi do not do that.
You have argued that Mace broke the code when trying to kill Palpatine, and Palpatine wasn't actually helpless.

Bye.
Old Stoneface[/QUOTE]


Just to reiterate, as you have argued my points on the basis of the PT and the PT Jedi, that my standpoint is that the Jedi of the OT, the story that the OT tells and particularly Luke's journey within that trilogy, are clouded by conceptions introduced in the PT. My aim is to highlight in what ways the PT Jedi do not actually match the Jedi of the OT, so to argue what the PT Jedi did makes no sense within that context. I mean, that's kind of my whole point, that so much of the subtlety of Luke's journey is lost because of concepts introduced by the PT, are submerged by those elements.

So, there is no Sith to be destroyed, no balance in the Force to be attained; the victory over the Empire attained by the rebels is separate from the personal victory of Luke and of his father - they are separate events. The idea that destroying the Emperor is what 'allowed' the rebels their victory belittles, imo, what the rebels accomplished - contracts them into cyphers of the tale woven by the 'ubermensch' that are the Jedi and the Sith. It narrows the story, compresses it.

Conquer and defeat are not the same as destroy or kill. You say that Luke's failure in the cave is a sign that Luke is not strong enough to conquer Vader, but that Vader turns out to be him. It honestly couldn't be more explicit, he cuts down Vader (note that; he is victorious physically against Vader but it is still a failure) and it is him. And that is his epiphany in the throne room, he looks to Vader's hand and then to his own and understands that the real Vader he is battling is himself that's what it is to 'do' Jedi.

You say that the PT Jedi do have all these rules, about attachment, but that's my point, those rules, and the way the PT Jedi are 'indoctrinated' with those ideas don't match the teaching methods or the ideals of the OT Jedi - the whole emphasis upon attachment is because Lucas became fixated upon it as THE reason for little Anni's fall - to the point of obliterating all other motivations within his turn, late on, in ROTS.

To be fair, I don't think either Obi-Wan or Yoda believed Vader could be turned to the light - but it doesn't follow that either of them were training Luke to kill him either. And, to be clear, I think by the end Luke had lost faith that he could as well. It wasn't his faith in his father that saved him or Vader - it was once he had let go of that and of his own will to power that he became a Jedi. It is shock that we see on Luke's face as his father turns on the Emperor, he is crying out in hope, not in faith - as he smashes his lightsabre down on Vader......where is his faith in 'father', it was that idea of 'father' that lead him to his rage, because Vader did not fulfill his expectations.

Those scenes are not about Vader and his redemption (not originally), it is not about Anakain fulfilling a prophecy, about bringing balance to the Force and destroying the Sith - they are all conceptions introduced in the PT which swamp the original telling of a different story. It is about Luke and his victory over himself, and as a side-effect of that, the redemption of his father; a personal victory.

In short, the story is about Luke defeating Vader 'in here' and attaining understanding of what a Jedi really is, not about defeating Vader 'out there', which physical victory is almost his downfall - as it was in the cave. That is what the Jedi teaching leads him to, and why he understands at that point that that is what they were teaching him.

 

First, it has been argued here that Yoda and Obi-wan knew all along that Vader could/would turn back and thus they never intended for Luke to fight/conquer/kill Vader.
They were totally sure that vader could be turned good again and all the times they said otherwise is just them lying/manipulating Luke. Because they can't simply tell Luke that there is a chance to turn Vader back as that would somehow cause Luke to fail.

I don't agree.
I think they had given Vader up for lost and you seem to agree, good so there is that.

Second, as I've said, I rather liked the idea that Luke was the only one who could sense the good in Vader.
And all the others were more knowledgeable and experienced in the Force than him.
But to all of them, turning was a one-way street, you can't turn back.
Luke proved them wrong.
So if Yoda and Obi-Wan had figured this out years before, it reduces Luke's achievements.

Third, even if we ignore the PT, in ESB Yoda is very clear that Vader and the Emperor MUST be stopped.
They are an evil that can not be allowed to endure.
No, it is not a prophecy or bringing balance, it is simply that they are evil and must be stopped.
This is why they train Luke, they need him.
Yoda gives a long list of complaints about Luke but gives in and trains him anyway.
Had the the situation and their need not been dire, I think he would have sent Luke packing.
If one looks at ANH alone, then one can imagine that Obi-Wan is simply fulfilling a promise to his dead friend when trying to teach his son about the Jedi.
With the other two, that no longer works. Luke is their last hope, or so Obi-wan thinks.
No one else can do this.

Fourth, yes Luke must overcome his own darkness before he can overcome the darkness that is Vader/the Emperor.
Because if he can not, they have a weapon that they can use against him and make him their servant.
Luke needs to control his fear, in the tree he can not and brings his weapons.
He also needs to control his hate and anger.
Vader is both a symbol of fear and also anger/hate.
But if Luke tries to fight hate with hate, he will become what he hates.
It is very Nietzsche

• He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

So Luke must learn how to confront darkness, not just external but internal as well.
And he must be careful when fighting it but that does not mean he must NEVER fight it.

Lastly, yes Luke does partly give up on his father on Endor but he senses good in Vader later on the DS2, the conflict.
And he very much tries to avoid a fight because when is calm, he knows that it will do him no good.
It won't change anything with regards to the battle outside. Even if he kills Vader, nothing changes.
And he should be aware that the Emperor is goading him into this, so another reason not to give in.
And he does not want to kill his father.
But Vader manages to probe Luke's thought and push his berserk-button and Luke lashes out.
But he pulls himself back and lays down his life rather than become an agent of evil.
That was him passing his test, had Vader not turned back, it would have mattered very little as Luke would have died soon after.
But Vader saw what Luke did, he rejected the hate and the dark side so he could too. And his son still loved him, even despite it all. And he he cared enough about him to not let him be murdered.
Any consequences to him be damned.
Vader let go of his hate and he also let go of his need to cling to life and let himself just be.
He was enlightened. And thus he broke his chains and killed his evil master.
Not to fulfill a prophecy or anything like that, to save his son.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Love>The Force>The ability to destroy a planet

 

The faith that Luke has is faith that he has developed on his own accord and not because of the prophecy, which he may or may not know about. Obi-wan might have faith because over time, he's come to believe that it is possible for him to come back and has to convince Yoda of this. The faith is not because of the prophecy.

Grievous wasn't dead after the first shot. He was wounded and Obi-wan followed through with additional shots, which damaged the rest of his internal systems and finally caused his heart to burst.

No, there's a world of difference. Obi-wan was in a situation where he had to kill a friend and a brother, but he also had to kill his enemy. He couldn't bring himself to help him, nor finish him. He found a compromise. Obi-wan did to something that was neither malicious or heroic. Enemies other than the Sith would not be left to die like that, because the Jedi's mandate is different with a Jango Fett or Nute Gunray. There is no mandate to eradicate them from the face of existence. If Mace had wounded Jango in a similar manner on Geonosis, he wouldn't leave him to die at the feet of the Reek. He has no attachment to him, nor any malice towards him. With the Sith, it is a different matter. The Sith have to be destroyed and many Jedi who have killed the Sith, have done so without negative feelings in their hearts and were quite clear in what needed to be done. When Obi-wan kills Maul, he is clear and concise in his actions and feelings. But against someone like Anakin, he was not clear and concise. He was a bundle of conflicted feelings. Yoda would take the risk himself of damning his soul to finish Anakin. Not out of compassion, but out of necessity.

We don't know that.

I'm sorry, do we see Obi-wan look gleeful at Anakin's suffering? I see sadness and disgust.

Not a piece of paper. It is about maintaining the moral code and the values that come with the Jedi Code and the Jedi Order. An oath that he swore to uphold and believes in wholeheartedly. An oath that separates the Jedi from the Sith. Obi-wan doesn't prefer to let him burn. He just gives up and walks away. He would rather have not fought him at all. And it haunts him for the rest of his life knowing what he has done.

As to Deckard, he never swore an oath to not kill someone who is helpless. In the war comic, the one soldier who advocated letting the enemy burn was due to malice. Obi-wan, on the other hand, had no malice. He had an ethical conundrum that led him to do something that was intended to be morally questionable.

 

Which has been passed down for a thousand generations so that in itself is not new at all.

Also as we see a scientific test is clearly NOT all they need nor even a Force prophecy.

The "problem" for the PT Jedi is that they are too concerned with looking towards the future and not being enough in touch with the Living Force as Qui-Gon was. That's why he wasn't on the Council. They look at Anakin at 9 and want to be assured they can see his future and they can't. Hence despite a blood test that says they should sign him up they don't do it. Despite a prophecy they don't sign him up. They only do it when they can't see the future and didn't foresee the return of the Sith.

Being too wrapped up in the future is what we see the flaw of the Jedi and Anakin later on is about. It does Luke no good in TESB then in the ST they replace the Luke who learned this with a new Luke who forgot this lesson and became a lone representation of the PT Jedi when he got caught up seeing Ben Solo's future (now Ben was also evil in the present so that was another problem that Luke failed on again when he didn't face him).

 

So? He was helpless after the first shot that set his exposed heart on fire. Anakin wasn't dead after having his remaining limbs hacked off. Why didn't Obi-Wan "follow through" with him too?

 

From what I've read, which might not be canon any more, the whole no-attachment thing, no children, families etc. That was quite recent.
From the last sith war, 1000 years ago.
Before that, Jedi could marry and have kids and all that.
So for the majority of the Jedi's order existence, these rules were NOT in place.

A test is the first key step, other steps then follow. If your midi-count is too low, then too bad.
Anakin is rejected because of their dogmatic rules, he is too old. Also they think he is too attached to his mother and has much fear in him.
They later change mind, possibly because now they are certain that the Sith are back and now they need the chosen one.
But for some reason, they don't realize that one way to deal with Anakin's fear would be to free his mother and allow him some limited contact with him.

The problem of the PT Jedi, to me, is partly this, they have become rigid, set in their ways and dogmatic.
They at first reject the idea that the sith could be back because they should have been able to sense them and since they don't, they can't be back. So reality must be wrong.
Obi-Wan could not even conceive of the idea that a Jedi could have deleted a file from their records and it took a child to tell him the bleeding obvious.
They were also apparently so used to the Force telling them things and were lost when it didn't.
Another problem is they are detached to the point when they become cold and indifferent.
Following rules and procedure becomes more important than doing what is right.
They do start violating their rules later but by then it was too late.
Lastly, they were rather dimwitted and thick-headed.

@darth-sinister
You don't seem to understand your own argument.
You have said that Jedi are forbidden from killing the HELPLESS.
Which you have now somehow transformed into, helpless SITH.
So a Jedi is not allowed to kill a dying, helpless Sith but they are totally fine with killing a dying, helpless ordinary person????
This makes zero sense.

Also, as I said, if cause pain and suffering for no reason and could prevent it with ease. That too is a bit of malice even if the person does not enjoy it.
Like in the recent fire in Russia, where a cinema and a shopping mall caught fire. The fire safeties had been ignored for a while and the fire department let people burn to death.
I found a fair bit of malice there even if none of those people enjoyed themselves.
Indifference can be quite cruel.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

That's not Lucas so doesn't apply.

The same rules they've had for tens of thousands of years. The same tests they've had for tens of thousands of years but in whatever combination the point is that they can't see his future. They don't see his future as the Chosen One that Qui-Gon bases not on not being able to see his future but living in the moment.

He IS the Chosen One. You must see it in the now is Qui-Gon's point but they don't.

That is the reason. Which Yoda still disagrees with.

Which is NOT the Jedi way and hasn't been maybe ever as far as we know and this encompasses over a thousand generations. If Anakin is to become Jedi then the first thing you don't do is change the way things worked for thousands upon thousands of years. Anakin wanted to become a Jedi and accepted that. He knew doing so would mean possibly never seeing Shmi again (but he felt he would as per when they parted).

That is their problem as an overall organization. How specific it is to them is another matter. Would the Jedi of 1000, 5000, or 25000 years earlier be any different? Were they more attuned to both the Living Force and Cosmic Force as opposed to the weighting things to the Cosmic as the PT Jedi did? Yoda who shaped the entire PT Jedi Order was trained almost 900 years earlier some 100 years after the last Sith Master and Apprentice "ruled" the galaxy (whatever that exactly meant).

Rules need to be followed when part of the rule of law or there is none. That is the dilemma. From outsiders views the Jedi have always been cold and detached.

Hardly. The problem is that in the end they did become too attached when they needed to follow the Jedi rules of non-attachment and using the Force for defense and not attack in the way it was meant to. Which means not striking down a helpless Sidious, arresting him and putting him on trial. Now of course that wouldn't work so instead Mace did a non-Jedi move which gave Anakin the self-excuse to stop him from doing so.

 

Grievous wasn't helpless when he was shot. He had doubled over in pain from the first blast, but he would survive that injury. Additional shots were required to finish him off. When Anakin was injured, he was left without his limbs save for his robotic hand. There was about a full minute before he ignited. Obi-wan starts to go forward and then stops and says what he says. Then Anakin catches fire and Obi-wan looks away for a moment, before looking back and then picking up the fallen Lightsaber. He couldn't follow through with him because Anakin was actually helpless as opposed to Grievous and he couldn't bring himself to help him, before he caught fire.

No, you're missing the point. A Jedi cannot kill anyone that is helpless and unable to defend themselves. A Jedi will go out and save someone who is not a Sith, like a bounty hunter or a criminal of some sort. They will not help a Sith Lord, because the Sith have to die. In that case, a Jedi will have killed the Sith and not just go for a wounding blow like Obi-wan did with Anakin. If a Jedi does go for a wounding blow, for whatever reason, then the Jedi must not kill the Sith and take that person prisoner. In other words....

-Obi-wan killing Maul was acceptable.
-Obi-wan killing Grievous was acceptable.
-Obi-wan killing Anakin was not acceptable.

-Anakin killing Dooku was wrong.
-Mace attempting to kill Palpatine was wrong.

-Luke not killing Vader was right.
-Luke almost killing Ben in his sleep was wrong.

That comes down to your own opinion which is not the same as what actually happens and what is in a person's heart.

 

There is no way for you or Obi-Wan to have determined that in the two seconds between his first blast that and the two extra shots that put Grievous out of his misery.

 

It's five shots all together. One at the outset and then four more. And yes, it is quite clear because Grievous did not die from the first shot. The first shot inflicted intense pain to his systems. He looks up at Obi-wan in anger and that is when the other four shots tear through him, igniting the fluid surrounding his organ sack and in turn, engulfing him from the inside, destroying what was left of his organics. Grievous does not drop and offer his surrender.

 

Why would Grievous "systems" have pain? Kenobi didn’t shoot his systems. He shot his exposed heart.
He drops his weapon because he is in mortal pain. The fact that he didn't die or just ignore the pain and instantly put his hands in surrender up is irrelevant. Obi Wan did not wait. He did not care if grievous was neutralised. He put him out of his misery while he was quite helpless.

Anakin didn't surrender either. So by your logic there should have been no problem with Obi Wan immediately giving him the coup de grace.

 

Hitting his gut sack affected what little nerves that he had left, which in turn caused him to feel pain all throughout his nerves, but also his systems. But Grievous was not helpless when he was shot. He was still capable of fighting and Obi-wan knew that. Anakin, on the other hand, was helpless. That's why he couldn't do it.