The Force: A Board for near RPG-like Force discussion for Jedi, Sith and Grey.

Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by GreyJediAntarFodoh, Nov 5, 2001.

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  1. GreyJediAntarFodoh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2001
    star 3
    Hello everyone. I had a board open but aparently it was in the wrong forum. I was told to move it here. I've copied the messages, users and dates and will be pasting it all in here.

    *****

    GreyJediAntarFodoh
    Date Posted: 10/30 12:33pm Subject: The Force: A Board for near RPG-like Force discussion for Jedi, Sith and Grey. - Date Edited: 11/3 4:59pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Lord Bane

    I am Grey Jedi Master Antar Fodoh. As far as I know, I am the only Grey Jedi in existance right now. I trained under Master Luke Skywalker and earned the title of Jedi Master before I began experimenting with the dark side of the Force. It's taken me a while, but I have attained a balance in the Force and I am now training my two aprentices in the ways of the Force.

    I look forward to talking with other practitioners of the Force, wether they be Jedi or Sith. The path to true wisdom and understanding is through the understanding of all points of view... There is no dark, there is no light. There is only the Force.

    Master-Ben
    Date Posted: 10/30 12:44pm Subject: RE: The Force: A Board for near RPG-like Force discussion for Jedi, Sith and Grey.

    Grey... Hmmm... Sounds impossible to me.

    GreyJediAntarFodoh
    Date Posted: 10/30 1:52pm Subject: RE: The Force: A Board for near RPG-like Force discussion for Jedi, Sith and Grey.

    Master Ben,

    Why is it that a Grey Jedi sounds impossible? Perhaps I can eliminate your doubts.

    DarkATX
    Date Posted: 10/30 4:21pm Subject: RE: The Force: A Board for near RPG-like Force discussion for Jedi, Sith and Grey.

    Are midis considered sentient each individually or as a collective?
    The fact that force-users normally have a certain amount would dictate strength in numbers.
    Yoda and Anikin are proof of this.
    So does a sole midi-chlorian have the ability to feel emotions and speak its will towards its host?
    Who knows?
    As for being consumed by the DarkSide of the force and never coming back...well Vader proved them all wrong didn't he? So it is possible to switch but it might be difficult since others find the raw power of the darkside intoxicating.
    In a universe where there's a lightside and a darkside, it would make only sense that there would be shades of grey in between.
    Life is like a rulebook, not everything is black and white...and so too must be the Force.
    Just a thought...

    GreyJediAntarFodoh
    Date Posted: 10/30 4:53pm Subject: RE: The Force: A Board for near RPG-like Force discussion for Jedi, Sith and Grey.

    The Force is an energy field that surrounds and binds all living things in the universe. It is what allows life and what allows existance. The Force is the essence of all existance. Some might call it fate, some might call it God.

    The Force allows things to live and things to die. The will of the Force at one point was that Anakin Skywalker should bring balance to the force. In his "balancing" of the Force, Anakin killed all of the Jedi untill there was only Obi-Wan, Yoda, Palpatine and Vader. that is 2 light and 2 dark, hence a blanace. The Force willed this and in the process MANY were killed.

    The Force is neither light nor dark. It is the user of the Force that makes it light or dark. In all of us we have the lightest of light impulses (the instinct of self sacrifice for another) and the darkest of dark impulses (the desire to harm others for our own gain). As Humans and civilised people, we try to tame our LIGHT and DARK impulses as neither are plausable in our lives. NO ONE can be perfect and NO ONE should be evil.

    As with normal feelings and instincts, the Force is just another way of venting our internal wills. For example, Palpatine's will was to rule and kill. The Force (reflecting HIS dark feelings) allowed him to do so. Yoda, contrarily, was an enlightened and patient being and used his skill in the Force for good, swearing off any dark impulse.

    It is not the dark side of the Force that is irrisistable, it is our own dark impulses that are so aluring. If one has the dicipline to know when to stop, to hold a p
  2. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    My opinion is personally there is no such thing as a "Grey" Jedi.

    Why?

    Because to be a Jedi Knight is to serve the Lightside of the Force and to uphold values such as honor, decency, and compassion.

    To be a Sith is to uphold the values of Anger, Fear, Agression, and Power as the movers and shakers of society.

    Did you ever see Babylon Five where the Shadows were facing the Vorlon? The Shadows and Vorlon both believed what they were doing to the races (fostering war/fostering cooperation) was to the betterment of society.

    By most standards you could classify the Shadows as "evil" but in truth it was just darwinistic in an attempt to build a stronger race.

    The Vorlon were attempting to destroy all War and foster a universe of enlightment and peace but in certain cases it performed actions that could be construed as evil (the bombing of Shadow worlds) in it's fanatcism to destroy evil.

    In this case if we were to use one interpretation that the Light Side was willing to create a champion that would destroy countless Jedi and more to get one shot at the Emperor.

    A Grey Jedi cannot worship both the Dark And Light Side because the opinion is anti-ethical to both.

    Furthermore the Dark Would always be tempting the Jedi to abandon fully the light and become purely a destructive force even as the Light would encourage pacifism and decency.

    "An apprentice you already have Qui Gon, forbidden to take another."

    The same might be said of a master, a Jedi can have only one master the Light or the Dark and it's up to the other side to find other champions even if you do believe both are necessary.

    A "True Neutral" Jedi who serves the "Balance" described in Dragonlance would more properly be termed a druid, sorceror, or his own code.

    And even then that is a slippery rock because Emperor Palpatine's thoughts in "Cloak of Deception" reveal the Emperor doesn't believe there was a difference between the Light and Dark.

    However from his comments in RotJ it's all too likely that he found out the hard way how wrong he was.

    Some words from my PC, Archon Dovanan.
    Newly completed the trials and now a Full Jedi Master

    <recorded in a Holocron from Luke Skywalker's treasure troves since he lived 4000 years before Luke's birth>

    "I thought the Dark Side of the Force could be used for Good. Over the plague ravaged world of Albathan I was delivering a tramp freighter with uninfected children away but the Republic had already quarenteened the world and shot me down.....faced with extinction I gave myself into anger and hatred and "lost myself". It did not seem that great of a chance....I felt the Republic and Jedi had abandoned me and though I still rescued the children my first action was to start settling "old scores" and steal knowledge in order to complete my training, realizing how "wrong" The Jedi were. I unleashed a terrifying Sith spirit onto the galaxy unintentionally and when I tried to rescue a fellow Jedi Knight, he died anyway and I ended up....seducing his wife whom I took as an apprentice along with their daughter. The Dark Side once it was in my head took control and manipulated me like a puppet by altering my perceptions. Only the love of my brother's sacrafice and the heroism brought me back from the brink. BEWARE THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE!"

  3. Kier_Nimmion Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 5


    Many good points Charlemagne. I remember reading about Grey Jedi on some web site somewhere, and it seemed more of an excuse to allow characters access to both Light & Dark Side powers with little or no penalties.
  4. JJGianunzio Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2001
    It seems to me that it may be posible to use both sides of the force, however in the use of both one side of the force mey not be mastered. The extra time spent in attaining use of both sides replaces the time spent in attaining the level of Jedi Master or Sith Lord. A being wishing to use both sides is limited for this reason and so may be defeated by a master of the light or dark.
  5. Kier_Nimmion Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 5



    Hmmm, no, I think I still agree with Charlemagne's original post. Light and Dark sides are mutually exclusive if you want to play a proper Jedi. That doesn't exclude, say, a Light Side Jedi from learning Dark Side skills, but he has to deal with the repercussions for his or her actions.
  6. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Thank you.

    It seems like a conflict between the Force as a value system/deity and the force as a tool/servant

  7. Kier_Nimmion Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 5
  8. GreyJediAntarFodoh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2001
    star 3
    I just posted on another board about the Jedi Sith and Grey and thought I'd post the same thing here. In the other board, it was asked how a Jedi or Sith would act... I said:
    *****
    Jedi Padawan: I think that a Jedi Padawan (NJO era) would likely be an average person that is eager to learn. The same would likely go for an NJO era Sith aprentice except with a little more anger and agression in their personality.

    Jedi Knight: As a Jedi Knight, one would have had to learn to use the Force with a certain degree of skill. One would also have to pass certain tests but would likely retain a lot of their learned personality from before their training. If you look at Luke in ROTJ, he still had a lot of the wonder in him that he had from ANH with a certain amount of serenity that he gained from the Force.

    Jedi Master: As a Jedi Master, one would have to have a Mastery of the light side. A Jedi Master would be more serene than a Jedi Knight. They'd be wise and in tune with the Force completely.

    The Sith are something else... As a Sith, one would be devoted completely to the Dark Side. One would use anger, agression and fear to their own power. Their motives are a different subject though. So far, the only Sith I've seen were in the movies and they were from a line of Sith with motives passed down. I tend to think that if the Sith weren't tought to hate Jedi, they might use their powers to other ends. For example, One COULD use the dark side for good. If Anakin/Vader hadn't died, he could very well have remained a Sith but backed Luke (and the Rebellion) up. I mean, if Vader used the Force choke on the Emperor, he would have been using a dark side technique for good.

    Finally, I arrive at my rendition of a popular fan theme... The Grey Jedi. My Grey Jedi were founded by a former Jedi MAster who believed in good as well as use of all of the Force (light and dark). As he learned to use the Force and passed on his teachings to his padawans, he tought them to use what they learned for good. I think that a Grey Jedi of his skill could easily use their abilities to any end, be it good, bad or just random use.
    *****

    So far, our main theme here has been wether or not the Grey could exist and if they could, what degree their power could be used to. I don't know if we'll ever get to the bottom of that debate but I'd love to keep trying.

    I'm also interested in knowing what you all think of the Jedi, the Sith and any other aspect to the Force/Force users.
  9. Kier_Nimmion Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 5


    The over all problem with the concept of a Grey Jedi is that it flies in the face of what makes Star Wars Star Wars: The battle of Good (Light) vs. Evil (Dark). Star Wars is not a million shades of grey, it's black and white. It's what makes it clear cut. There should be no doubt in anyone's mind that the Yuuzhan Vong are evil. You can have duplicity and double agents, even people with loose morals who may play both sides of the fence to their advantage, what do Grey Jedi fight for? Mediocrity?

    Finally, I arrive at my rendition of a popular fan theme... The Grey Jedi. My Grey Jedi were founded by a former Jedi MAster who believed in good as well as use of all of the Force (light and dark). As he learned to use the Force and passed on his teachings to his padawans, he tought them to use what they learned for good. I think that a Grey Jedi of his skill could easily use their abilities to any end, be it good, bad or just random use.

    But it doesn't work that way. When you tap the Dark Side it begins to influence your actions and makes the application of Dark powers easier, hence its danger. Couple that with fear, anger, aggression, and you have all the makings of a Dark Jedi. I don't think you can disguise going around choking people, roasting them with Force lighting and scaring the heck out of them, as a good thing. Because sooner rather than later they are going to get really angry or very afraid and when that happens, the Dark side says "Hey, how would YOU like to turn him into charcoal rather than just confusing him?" And before you can say 'Darth Vader' you have a very dangerous individual.

    You can't balance Dark Side powers with Light Side powers and expect to keep said balance. Unless of course that for every time you use a Dark Side power, you have used your Light Side powers a thousand times, (Like the way Luke does). I do not think they are equal and nor should they be.
  10. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    "Using the Dark Side for Good...."

    This is the fundemental matters crux and I'm going to give you my own campaign notes which are somewhat radical about this.

    YOU CANNOT USE THE DARK SIDE FOR GOOD

    A powerful scene in the Star Wars adventure journals was an encounter between Jaaib Brandl and Alex Wringer, Luke Skywalkers padawan I hope way down the line. Alex wanted to save her father's life but she simply couldn't do such a thing on her own (she only had sense dice)

    Jaaib did some devil's advocate tempting towards her and she called upon the Dark Side....

    Exactly how does a Grey Jedi use the Dark Side for light? Tell me about his mindset, I'm not unwilling to learn.

    Alex had to focus her fear, horror, anger, and hatred into healing her father and YES she did but the experience nearly killed her and left her almost irecoverably tainted. She had a vision that she was a Dark woman and a force of evil Jaaib was equal to.

    About using Dark Side powers for good though?

    Well the Force can already be used for defense-we have force push, projected fighting, lightsaber combat, and 'stun lightning' which is in my game a variant on force lightning which causes your nerves to freeze up and to fall down R2-D2 in the first movie style.

    In my game would you like to know how I describe use of Telekinetic kill?

    "You sense the man's beating heart in side his chest as you go further into the Force and see the blood particles themselves moving in a titanic wave of red rushing rapids...invigorating life even as the dead are reknewed. With a slow feel you slow down the red waves as the dead slowly began to multiply in the infinite time of the Force and soon the light of the body begins to dim, starving for the simple oxygen moving through the starport of the body. Looking up the man has collasped on the ground as you release his heart....no longer needing the force to keep it from beating."

    Basically after reading that I have to ask myself WHAT KIND OF PSYCHO USES A POWER LIKE THAT!?

    It's kind of like using force Storms in my game....you can use "gravitonic pulse" which is a variant on the power and basically creates a naturally occuring Interdiction well....and can even move things hyperspace distances.

    (See Darksaber for Gravitonic Pulse in action)

    However Force Storms literally transform the universe into a mirror of a terrifying madness that causes damage to the very fundemental nature of the galaxy. I add +5 to all difficulty rolls for flying in a place where a force storm has been for the next 3 centuries and rule a Dark Jedi's body needs instant repair and meditation afterwards or it's likely to kill you

    Like the fan created "Cyberlocke"

    Anything the Dark Side can do the Light Side can accomplish just as well.

    Of course I play the Dark Side as exceptionally corrupting as opposed to stagnant however.

    In my game a Jedi using the Dark Side to study can for a DSP learn at half the cost 1d force abilities (quick and easy knowledge)

    The idea is he could get a 6d in just a few months but he's certainly to be corrupted.

    The knowledge becomes much scarcer when corrupted but you can still catch the Dark Side's attention by greater acts of evil (look at the Emperor) and corrupting others...the dark side is generous to it's servants after all

    HAHAHAHAAHA'

    err scuze me
  11. GreyJediAntarFodoh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2001
    star 3
    Kier Nimmion,

    You say that the idea of the Grey Jedi is contradictory to the whole idea of Star Wars... That Star Wars is about Good and Evil with no shades of grey. Well, I have to argue there. Han Solo was a criminal and an outlaw, yet he was a hero. Lando was kinda shady at parts too. Luke has done a few shady things in his Jedi career that bordered on the dark side. That's not even counting the time that he became Palpatine's aprentice. George Lucas himself has been known to say that the Grey Jedi are around. You went on to say, "... what do Grey Jedi fight for? Mediocrity?" Well, that's just nonsence... I'm sorry. The Grey Jedi seek the true understanding of the Force. Look, there's the light SIDE and the dark SIDE of the Force... That's both sides to THE Force.

    I'm gonna quote you again, here... "... When you tap the Dark Side it begins to influence your actions and makes the application of Dark powers easier, hence its danger. Couple that with fear, anger, aggression, and you have all the makings of a Dark Jedi. I don't think you can disguise going around choking people, roasting them with Force lighting and scaring the heck out of them, as a good thing. Because sooner rather than later they are going to get really angry or very afraid and when that happens, the Dark side says "Hey, how would YOU like to turn him into charcoal rather than just confusing him?" And before you can say 'Darth Vader' you have a very dangerous individual."

    I'm sorry but I have to disagree with that whole argument. Using the Dark side CAN influence your actions but then so can the Light side. In real life, let's say that you had no choice but to clock a guy in the head cause he was insisting on being violent and hurting others. What were you ALWAYS tought about violence? "Violence doesn't solve anything." Well, you DID hit the guy, the problem was solved, you meant well but you now know that YOU have the power to knock someone out. You've tapped a dark impulse. Does this mean that you're gonna run around hitting everyone? Well, it just might if you're a weak willed person. Those of us that have the self restraint and the common sence to hold back won't be corrupted by the power we felt when we knocked that guy out. The same goes for the Force... If Yoda had to Force Lighting Palpatine to a cinder to save lives, he'd probably do it. Would it corrupt him? I think not... No more than clocking that guy would corrupt you or I. The Grey Jedi (or at least MY Grey Jedi) all have the self dicipline to know when to stop... To only use what is nesesary. They COULD be corrupted by the Dark Side... You or I could.

    By denying the dark inside themselves, they're denying a part of their nature. By exploring, knowing and understanding their Dark impulses, they are less likely to sucumb to them. Like I said a moment ago, the light side is equally corruptable. If all one does is evil, one will develop a taste for it. If all one does is good, they may not know how to do otherwise if the need should arise. If you REALLY think about it, all Jedi are at least slightly grey... If they were TRULY benevolent and peaceful, they would rather die than harm another person even if that meant that others would die in the process.

    "I don't think you can disguise going around choking people, roasting them with Force lighting and scaring the heck out of them, as a good thing." Of course not! But it's not really a "good" thing either when a police officer is forced to shoot a criminal. It's not a good thing when Obi-Wan had to kill Darth Maul. If Obi Wan could have Force Lighteninged Maul instaed of killing him, a life would have been spared. Is that not better? The Sith have many "evil" tools (lightening, choking, etc, etc) that would be invaluable tools if used by the right person. All it takes is a person with will enough to know through and through what is right and wrong. I suppose that if one of "my" Grey Jedi were to be a bad or evil person, they'd likely just be a Sith. So far, they're not... Th
  12. GreyJediAntarFodoh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2001
    star 3
    I just thought I'd post a brief description of my 3 characters in my fic about the Grey Jedi...

    *****

    Grey Master Antar Fodoh
    Antar once studied under Luke Skywalker at the Jedi academy. After some time, he eventually became a Jedi Master but he always believed that there was more to understand that just the light side of the Force. He began learning the ways of the Sith while clinging to the Jedi ways with every essence of his being. Like many Jedi before him, Antar experienced the alure of the Dark side so he abandoned his experimenting alltogether for a while. Once he was centered enough, he experimented again but the draw was less as he'd seen it before. After more than a decade of this slow process, he'd attained a mastery of the Sith arts and in the summoning of the Dark side. Coupled with his mastery of the Jedi arts and his ability to summon the light side, Antar saw that he was right and that it was no longer light nor dark... It was just the Force.

    Dispite his success, Antar was banished by the Jedi as thay'd ALWAYS banished Jedi who used the dark side. Banished or not, Antar still believed in the Jedi cause and in the Republic. He wasn't evil anymore than any average person. He respects Luke and seeks wisdom and understanding. In the mean time, he stands up for the little man, and fights for good when fighting is needed.

    Antar's first apprentice studied under him when he was still in his early stages of Sith experimentation prior to his banishment. Because Antar was dangerously close to losing himself at the time, he was a poor master to his apprentice who fell to the dark side completely. It was this blunder that got Antar banished.

    Lanna Hanishe
    Lanna is Antar's second apprentice. She met Antar and became his aprentice 8 years after his first apprentice fell to the dark side. She attained the level of Jedi Knight at the Jedi academy but believed in Antar and left to learn his ways. She shared Antar's fate and was banished for following him. (She became his apprentice AFTER he mastered the Force.) After 7 years, she is still a Jedi Knight almost on par with some Jedi Masters. She will not begin to learn the Dark Side from Antar untill she has become a Master of the light side and only then will Antar closely guide her in the ways of the Dark side.

    At this point in Lanna's training she is just an EXTREMELY skilled Jedi Knight. She follows her master loyally. If it weren't for the fact that she was banished, she weould be indistinguishable from any other Jedi.

    Tiernin Koliah AKA Darth Tier
    Tiernin is Antar's third apprentice. When he was very young, he attended the Jedi academy but because of the death of his parents, he was very bitter and angry. He was deemed untrainable after a few years and this only fueled his negative feelings. That aside, he was a good guy that meant well but just had a poor hand in life. At age 20, Tiernin met Antar and Lanna (only a year after Lanna became Antar's apprentice) and Antar took him on a as a second apprentice. It was clear to Antar that Tiernin was untrainable as a Jedi so he decided to teach him to become a Sith. (If he didn't, Tiernin was not far from the Dark side so he might as well learn the dark side from a good guy.) It's been 6 years and now Tiernin is on par with Darth Maul... He follows his masters commands and is VERY powerful in the Force as a kind of docile Sith. Once he has attained all of the skill and patience the dark side can offer him, Antar (with some help from Lanna) will begin to help him tame his dark impulses and begin to bring him towards the light side.

    Tiernin is a textbook Sith, overflowing with rage and anger. Also, as a textbook Sith, he follows his master's wishes to the letter and therefore behaves himself. Even if he weren't bound to obey Antar, Tiernin would still do the right thing when given the choice... He'd just do it in a very Sith way.

    That is the current state of affairs in my fic... 15 years ahead in the Fic's time, Lanna and Teir will both be Grey Jedi Masters like A
  13. Kier_Nimmion Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 5
    You say that the idea of the Grey Jedi is contradictory to the whole idea of Star Wars... That Star Wars is about Good and Evil with no shades of grey. Well, I have to argue there. Han Solo was a criminal and an outlaw, yet he was a hero. Lando was kinda shady at parts too. Luke has done a few shady things in his Jedi career that bordered on the dark side.

    Han and Lando are not Jedi, second, they seemed to have redeemed themselves quite nicely in the later movies and novels. Han's married and a father while still helping the New Republic. Lando is, for the most, an honest business man. As for Luke's career, shady yes, but he only completely crossed the line once, and while Dark Empire is canon, I found the turning to the Dark Side story a little too cut and dry.


    That's not even counting the time that he became Palpatine's aprentice. George Lucas himself has been known to say that the Grey Jedi are around.

    When? Find me the source where Lucas says this.

    You went on to say, "... what do Grey Jedi fight for? Mediocrity?" Well, that's just nonsence... I'm sorry. The Grey Jedi seek the true understanding of the Force. Look, there's the light SIDE and the dark SIDE of the Force... That's both sides to THE Force.

    And balancing between the two is nonsense when it comes to an individual. I'm sorry, the Grey Jedi concept just seems to be a way for players to have their cake and eat it too.

    I'm sorry but I have to disagree with that whole argument. Using the Dark side CAN influence your actions but then so can the Light side.

    There is no 'can' about it, it does influence a person's actions, and in the worst way. The Light Side does not influence, it guides and let's the wielder make the choice.

    In real life, let's say that you had no choice but to clock a guy in the head cause he was insisting on being violent and hurting others. What were you ALWAYS tought about violence? "Violence doesn't solve anything." Well, you DID hit the guy, the problem was solved, you meant well but you now know that YOU have the power to knock someone out. You've tapped a dark impulse.

    Ah, yes, but if I were a Jedi Knight, I would have simply waved my hand in front of him, affected his mind, and calmly asked him to settle down. However, I am not a Jedi and were someone committing violence and hurting others, I would see it as my duty to stop the individual if I could, and I wouldn't be tapping a dark impulse to do it, either.

    However, it is vastly different in Star Wars than it is in real life. When a Jedi succumbs to the urge and/or temptation to use a Dark Side power, it taints him a little more each time he does it. This can't be balanced by using Light Side powers, it doesn't work that way.

    Does this mean that you're gonna run around hitting everyone? Well, it just might if you're a weak willed person.

    Which most Dark Jedi tend to be, either that or deluded, arrogant, etc.

    Those of us that have the self restraint and the common sence to hold back won't be corrupted by the power we felt when we knocked that guy out.

    Those Jedi with common sense won't be tempted to use the Dark Side at all. It's too easy and too seductive a source to rely upon in any circumstance. Second, if a Jedi HAS self restraint and since the Dark Side relies on anger, fear and aggression to be present, the Jedi won't succumb to it because he has this quality which you deem important.

    The same goes for the Force... If Yoda had to Force Lighting Palpatine to a cinder to save lives, he'd probably do it.

    He didn't because he didn't have to, that's why he trained Luke. And no, he wouldn't do.

    Would it corrupt him? I think not... No more than clocking that guy would corrupt you or I.

    Stuff and nonsense. He wouldn't have done it even if they had come face to face, because Yoda would have COMMON SENSE and SELF RESTRAINT to NOT tap the Dark Side.

    The Grey Jedi (or at least MY Grey Jedi) all have the self dicipline to know when to stop... To only use what is nesesa
  14. GreyJediAntarFodoh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2001
    star 3
    I don't have the time right now to reply but I just wanted to say that I'm really enjoying this conversation/debate. It's really keeping me on my feet and making me question and justify my beliefs. I'll post back ASAP.
  15. Kier_Nimmion Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 5
    My opinion is personally there is no such thing as a "Grey" Jedi.

    Why?

    Because to be a Jedi Knight is to serve the Lightside of the Force and to uphold values such as honor, decency, and compassion.


    Absolutely. I find playing a Jedi Knight in an RPG to be one of the most challenging and fulfilling things I can do.

    To be a Sith is to uphold the values of Anger, Fear, Agression, and Power as the movers and shakers of society.

    Power corrupts absolute.
    And absolute power is kinda fun.

    Seriously, a Dark Jedi or Sith is someone who strives for power for its own sake- the ability to control the destiny of millions or snuff the life of one seems to be their raison detre.

    Did you ever see Babylon Five where the Shadows were facing the Vorlon? The Shadows and Vorlon both believed what they were doing to the races (fostering war/fostering cooperation) was to the betterment of society.

    By most standards you could classify the Shadows as "evil" but in truth it was just darwinistic in an attempt to build a stronger race.


    Hmmm, I would call the Shadows evil, (and I'm SO glad you're a babylon 5 fan!), because it was their belief that by fostering chaos through war that they weak races would disappear and the strong would survive. Having no regard for life forms just because they can't swim with the big boys makes them evil, IMHO. However, your synopsis is correct.

    The Vorlon were attempting to destroy all War and foster a universe of enlightment and peace but in certain cases it performed actions that could be construed as evil (the bombing of Shadow worlds) in it's fanatcism to destroy evil.

    The Vorlons came to believe that only through rigid adherence to order could the races achieve enlightenment. In the end, both the Shadows and the Vorlons proved to be wrong, since free will and the right to choose is the most important hallmark of any species. Something the Minbari needed desperately to understand, IMHO.

    In this case if we were to use one interpretation that the Light Side was willing to create a champion that would destroy countless Jedi and more to get one shot at the Emperor.

    Not sure if I understand this. Unless you mean Anakin.

    A Grey Jedi cannot worship both the Dark And Light Side because the opinion is anti-ethical to both.

    Exactly, one denies the other because they run in opposite directions.

    Furthermore the Dark Would always be tempting the Jedi to abandon fully the light and become purely a destructive force even as the Light would encourage pacifism and decency.

    Defense rather than pacifism, IMHO.

    "An apprentice you already have Qui Gon, forbidden to take another."

    The same might be said of a master, a Jedi can have only one master the Light or the Dark and it's up to the other side to find other champions even if you do believe both are necessary.


    I always thought this to be sort of odd, since it was Darth Bane who created the One Master/One Appretice concept and yet the Lide Siders seem to follow it also.

    A "True Neutral" Jedi who serves the "Balance" described in Dragonlance would more properly be termed a druid, sorceror, or his own code.

    Ugh, don't get me started on DragonLance. Margaret Weiss won't talk to me anymore for what I said.

    And even then that is a slippery rock because Emperor Palpatine's thoughts in "Cloak of Deception" reveal the Emperor doesn't believe there was a difference between the Light and Dark.

    Not sure I buy that. That would imply he almost didn't know what he was doing.

    However from his comments in RotJ it's all too likely that he found out the hard way how wrong he was.

    He had become a sink hole for evil.

    Some words from my PC, Archon Dovanan.
    Newly completed the trials and now a Full Jedi Master

    <recorded in a Holocron from Luke Skywalker's treasure troves since he lived 4000 years before Luke's birth>

    "I thought the Dark Side of the Force could be used for Good. Over the plague ravaged world of Albathan
  16. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Some points.

    [Han and Lando are not Jedi, second, they seemed to have redeemed themselves quite nicely in the later movies and novels. Han's married and a father while still helping the New Republic. Lando is, for the most, an honest business man. As for Luke's career, shady yes, but he only completely crossed the line once, and while Dark Empire is canon, I found the turning to the Dark Side story a little too cut and dry.]

    I actually don't argue with Luke's transformation in Dark Empire because we have to realize the man is a prisoner of his own heroism and dreams. Palpatine has dangled the carrot of galactic responsibility and his insecurity about being a true Jedi master (having been revealed that he's failed to destroy Palpatine) in front of his head. Eventually Palpatine had Luke to the point he was willing to fight his sister because it was the proper way to get another chance at palpatine...

    Only his father again intervened because Luke began to realize this is probably how Vader felt facing him. Furtheremore while it's not the author's intention Luke spends nearly a decade waffling in his teachings and beliefs befroe figuring out there's something wrong in Visions of the Future.

    [When? Find me the source where Lucas says this.]

    I believe he is referring to Qui Gon Jinn in the Phantom menace whose referred to as a rogue Jedi. While we can honestly say Qui Gon is a man with good intentions and a righteous manner he does some very qeustionable things.

    1. The Mind Trick on Boss Nass, on Jar Jar in the Bongo, on Watto, and he has to honestly say to Obi Wan they can't use it on Boss Nass to persuade him to fight a war...so it occured to him.

    2. He cheats at dice.

    These are hardly actions comparable to frying baby ewolks with Force lightning (though some would call that heroism) but even Luke used telekenetic choke on the guards.

    I'll discuss what I think is our "Grey Jedi philosophy" below.

    [There is no 'can' about it, it does influence a person's actions, and in the worst way. The Light Side does not influence, it guides and let's the wielder make the choice.]

    So does the Dark Side, let's give credit where credit is due. The Dark Side may cloud, influence, and color perceptions but for it to own a person that person must choose the Dark Path willingly and of their own free will....

    The Light Side does the same as Jedi become more and more unified with the Force, thus the same for the Sith and the Dark Side (one is a holy joining like Obi Wan and Yoda at death, another is an explosion of depravity and evil)

    [Stuff and nonsense. He wouldn't have done it even if they had come face to face, because Yoda would have COMMON SENSE and SELF RESTRAINT to NOT tap the Dark Side.]

    Let's remember that Alice in Wonderlands stuff and nonsense was slightly ironic. She's oddly the outcast in Wonderland because insanity is the norm.

    Yoda could use the Dark Side to attack Emperor Palpatine but like Darth Maul and Obi Wan, Darth Maul is much better at using it.

    Futheremore he has better ways of dealing with it, specifically Luke since he has the sense to realize that Palpatine is only the Dark Side's messanger. Killing the Dark Lords would be grand but their web of evil would survive them....

    and there's no gaurentee he'd win. Especially since the Dark Side will want something for it's two best servants....

    the old saying

    "The Devil and his due"

    [Rubbish. The Dark Side doesn't give them the option to decide whether or not they know when to stop. "Take a little more, Bobby, a little more..."]

    In my game Archon almost immediately regretted his fall to the Dark Side (yes I broke WEG cardinal rule about falling causing one to lose him as a PC-sue me) and wanted to redeem...unfortunately every action was tainted by the fact he was completely lacking control of his actions.

    He was angry all the time, resentful, and power came easily to him....you can turn back anytime you want it just requires you to ignore the voice in your head because for once it's not FOR you!

    [A Je
  17. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    1. The Shadows, the Sith, and the nature of Evil

    Agreed by Earthly standards and by universal "Force" standards the Shadows were insanely arrogant in their beliefs and callous beyond any human sanity to suffering they caused for their beliefs.

    By traditional and "Force" definations indeed the Shadows were evil.

    However the point that must not be missed is that as Luke Skywalker pointed out while men like the Emperor, Tarkin, and Vader might openly say they are evil (they have little regard for public opinion) they don't actually believe it. Okay the Emperor and Vader might so maybe my point is lost but the Dark Road is paved in the best intentions.

    To the Shadows this genocidal little Galactic conflict of theirs isn't any worse than what humanity or the other races would inflict upon themselves over time and the advancements of war far outweight the advancements of peace. It is a showing how a "selfless" action can become completely misconstrued and mismanaged.

    They even have a point to their beliefs. If man was not willing to crush those in his way he likely would still be hovering in caves but to the Light Side mindset all our technology is not worth the price of war and advancement. Think on that and realize the price one might have to pay for enlightment...

    it should be easy but it's not.

    While men like Emperor Palpatine and Vader are clearly in it for the Dark Side openly and themselves.....it's easy to hate them. There's nothing that prevents a Sith from having a "higher goal", it is only the realization that one is falling further into the Dark Side's grasp that one becomes truly selfish.

    The Dark Side can never be fully embraced until someone is completely selfish and even then I suspect it wants you to hate yourself....otherwise ties to the outside world be they nationalism, religion, family, or friends might draw you out.

    Thus using "force lightning" to kill an evil man in my game may be corrupting and give you a DSP even if used in defense of a nother but I keep careful track of my own dark side scale. A Jedi using rocks, wind, and sticks to attack a evil person and defend will get a dark side point but probably not beyond 2 even if he continues such measures...

    I'll do my best to lead him down and he is tainted but after 6 points it takes greater acts of depravity to give DSP. The Emperor by Dark Empire with his 63 DSP is not even human in my game so much as the Dark Side's mouth piece.

    In a most literal fashion...

    2. Free Will, Life, and the Force

    [The Vorlons came to believe that only through rigid adherence to order could the races achieve enlightenment. In the end, both the Shadows and the Vorlons proved to be wrong, since free will and the right to choose is the most important hallmark of any species. Something the Minbari needed desperately to understand, IMHO.]

    Indeed so and in My campaign it is the necessity of Free will which keeps the Dark Side from being eradicated utterly by the Light.

    While removing free will you may get rid of Evil, you also lose the capacity for Good.

    I use it to justify my "Dragonlance" obsession because basically Paladin, Kiri and the rest could wage war on the
    "Dark Side" gods so to speak and arguing for once they could win...

    they haven't really accomplished much because evil still exists and there's less chnce of their defeat and redemption (that of course is just a reflection of my personal beliefs about life, the universe, and everything). Plus also man has no gage to look upon evil and know it's many faces save each other.

    [Not sure if I understand this. Unless you mean Anakin.]

    I mean Anakin.

    [Defense rather than pacifism, IMHO.]

    We're never going to resolve this arguement truly because people have been debating the nature of good vs. evil for long before we have existed and long afetr we have turned to dust.

    However by the Star Wars RPG rules in my opinion while a Jedi is obligatd to defend the weak and righteous from the machinations of their natural enemy in the Sith (not to mention all other se
  18. GreyJediAntarFodoh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2001
    star 3
    I think that debating canon Wars may not be the best way to make my point. We've been over and over the facts with little movement in any direction... Well, except for the direction of stimulating discussion. [face_clown]

    I'd like to adress a point that was made with the B5-Vorlon/Shadow parallel and then I'll go on to describe Antar's Force/Grey Jedi philosophy. I think that may be the best way to get you to understand my point, even if you still don't agree with it.

    Quickly before I go on, I'd like to thank Charlemagne19 and Kier_Nimmion for making this board an active one and something worth reading.

    Kier, you said, "The Vorlons came to believe that only through rigid adherence to order could the races achieve enlightenment. In the end, both the Shadows and the Vorlons proved to be wrong, since free will and the right to choose is the most important hallmark of any species. Something the Minbari needed desperately to understand, IMHO."

    It really seems that you're making my point for me here. You say that the Shadows' and Vorlons' flaw was that free will and the right to choose is the most important hallmark of any species. Well, I argue that the Jedi and the Sith are both equally flawed for being so rigid in their ways. I think that they're both wrong in thinking that knowing the Force means knowing only the light or dark side. A Force user different from the Jedi and different from the Sith with free will, the right and the WILL to choose is the most important hallmark to a person... Just like with a species.

    You have both said that Jedi "worship" the light side of the Force and that the Sith "worship" the dark side of the Force... You've both said that to be a Sith is to swear off the light side and oppose the Jedi and vice versa. You've both said that The Grey Jedi can't exist because to be a Jedi is to be beyond the temptation of the dark side.

    You know what? You're both right and I agree completely! There's just one thing though. The Grey Jedi aren't trying to be Jedi, they're another order called the GREY Jedi. The prefix "Grey" diferentiates them from their Jedi cousins. This is roughly analogous to the terms that describe automobiles. There are sports cars and there are family cars. They are both cars, true but they are also different wich is why we assign different prefixes to them. The same goes for the Grey Jedi who are an order based on the Jedi yet different.

    Again I'm going to use Antar Fodoh as my example as he is the founder of my Grey Jedi order. He can never be a TRUE Jedi nor can he be a TRUE Sith and that's just fine because neither are what he seeks as he believes that they're both flawed. Antar will never be a Jedi again because he uses the darkside but he knows everything that a Jedi Master knows as he studied the Jedi literature in great detail. Equally, Antar will never be a Sith but he has studied their ways, skills and abilities aswell as the summoning of the dark side of the Force to the point that he would be a Sith Master if it weren't for his devotion to the light side he retains. As a Master of his own Grey arts, Antar doesn't summon the light side anymore nor does he summon the dark side anymore, he just summons the Force.

    Because Antar is a good man and was a Jedi first, he based HIS Jedi order on the orriginal Jedi order (hence the name Grey Jedi as opposed to some new term). Antar's Grey Jedi order fight for and believe in the same things as the Jedi with a few exceptions. They believe in letting the Sith be unless the Sith intend on harming others. At that point, Antar and his Grey Jedi will take action the same as the Jedi. Also, the Grey Jedi know a different Force from the Jedi as the Jedi see only the light side. If Antar were a diferent person, his order could have gone down a darker path like other "Dark Jedi" but he is a case where it worked. Some of his apprentices or his apprentices' apprentices may go dark down the line just like in the Jedi order but for the most part, they will adhere to the Grey Jedi code established by Antar
  19. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I'm glad i have a better understanding of it.

    I may use something like the "grey" philosophy in my game which basically amounts to creating a Jedi heretic.

    Basically one whose views are incompatible with the Jedi but incredibly similar and subject to persecution.

    But possibly dangerous as well.

  20. DarkATX Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2000
    star 4
    Hi,
    Did anyone ever mention the Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II video game?
    That's where all the Grey Jedi order probably got its inspiration from. It's not exactly Star Wars canon but its pretty close...since it does need Lucas's blessing all the same.

    Personally, when I first started trying to write a jedi dabbling on both sides (as free thinkers so to speak) I had it in mind that it wasn't wise since both sides would struggle at each in effect cancelling each other out making a force user weaker in truth...kind of like a jack of all trades, master of none.

    If the Force was good then there wouldn't be any evil...period. As for not using the dark side for doing good, that's all a matter of point of view. Vader brought balance to the Force by destroying the majority of the Jedi.
    Is destroying a monopoly of Force-users a bad thing? Well, considering they were much like the Microsoft of universal policing, choosing where and when to use their gifts while letting other systems languish in injustice, then in some eyes yes it was a GOOD thing which brings me to my next point.

    Good and Evil are strictly concepts. People are the ones who attribute importance to them. To kill someone is evil. Why? Because the majority or society says so. Yet, killing someone in self-defence is considered O.K. in most circles...sometimes killing as a form of revenge is also accepted considering the severity original transgression (like in the movie A Time to Kill).

    In this case do the midi-chlorians care? If they did, if they even had a conscience then they wouldn't aid their host. They would probably keep their host from falling to the Darkside in the first place. That's something called Freewill. We all have it and it always in the end comes down to us and not some outside force. No matter how extreme the conditions you find yourself in, you end up making choices (there's always choices) the most basic of which is to DO something or simply NOT DO it. (eg: if you're hopelessly trapped you can still decide whether to keep fighting to the bitter end or just sit there and let the inevitable do you in.)

    Since our universe is based on Balance (E=Mc²) so to would their universe be...well somewhat. ?[face_plain] There are good people, there are bad people and then there is the rest of us fitting somehwere snuggly in between.

    Without balance you have chaos...that's just the fundamental truth of life. Where there's light, there's shadows yet one can't cast shadows without something being in between. ;)
  21. Maj_Odo-Taji Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 2001
    star 1
    Look at it this way. The game mechanics (I speak for d20 by the way) allow for characters to dable in both the Light & Dark Side of the Force. This is attained by accruing Dark Side Force Points as well as Light Side Force Points.

    If you want your Jedi to be "Gray", great, build and develop the character with Dark Side Points, Dark Side actions, etc...

    It is true that there needs to be a balance...hell, that is what Anakin was destined for, to bring balance to the Force. But for anyone that is not "the chosen one that will bring balance to the Force", it would be a difficult journey indeed.

    Now, to be a master of both Dark & Light Sides of the Force, I just don't see how to do it mechanically. In philosophy, one could have a very thorough knowldged of both, but as the inevitable plummet ot the Dark Side begins (which is truly inevitable if you flirt ith the Dark Side for a lifetime) your character's thoughts, ideas and actions will become more and more corrupted.

    Anyways...just a few thoughs.

    Maj-Odo Taji
  22. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I heartily disagree there..

    I'm transforming the Force's nature in my campaign and yet still evil will exist while the Force recovers it's original purpose and becomes good.

    Evil isn't eradicated because the Force is completely Good...it only is drastically weakened.

    It's evil to interfere with free will.

  23. GreyJediAntarFodoh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2001
    star 3
    Maj_Odo-Taji,

    I agree that it will be a great struggle for Antar and that's kinda the whole point. I'd bet that the first of the Jedi had a MUCH harder time that the ones of the present (TPM, NJO) but they figured it out and became the Jedi order. The same idea goes for Antar and his order. Antar strugled for more than a decade to shake the temptation of the dark side and it will be generations in his order before Grey Jedi padawans can find a balance with any degree of ease. It will take generations of Grey Jedi Masters before a tried and true method can be developed.

    I just wanted to set you at ease and let you know that I DID consider that point.

    Anyway, if anyone would like to start a new topic about the Force on this board, it is welcome and invited! If you'd all like to continue on this Grey Jedi debate, that's welcome too.
  24. ZaiShanZo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2001
    star 1
    The Grey Jedi already exist: They're the Jedi as taught by the Old Republic Jedi Council. The purpose of the Jedi is not to act as morality cops but to keep the Republic in balance. Their failure to do so created holes and weaknesses in the Old Republic, weaknesses that were exploited by self-serving opportunists and daker forces such as the Sith.

    Take a close look at the actions of Qui-Gon, Yoda, and even Obi-Wan in how he chose to withold certain critical facts to Luke when he first told him of his father. The Jedi aren't so much Good-guy moralists, but people on the beat, serving more as a social thermostats than Green Lantern style cops.

    Light side and Darkside powers aren't so much powers of good and evil, they are powers of balance and unbalance, selflessness and selfishness. The Dark Side powers are the way they are because they draw directly from unbridled emotions of the id. For that reason, any Jedi who plays with Dark side powers is playing with fire and will sooner or later, get burnt.

  25. Kier_Nimmion Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 5



    Sorry I haven't been around the past few days. I had to a complete re-install on my PC because of a lock-up problem that I couldn't diagnose. It's kinda depressing- I had 3 years of work on the system and it's all gone, I couldn't back material up, because Adaptec CD creator would lock up as it copied files. My newest back-ups are 2-3 months old. Oh, well, what's a couple of hundred megabytes of irreplaceable data these days?
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