The Force: A Board for near RPG-like Force discussion for Jedi, Sith and Grey.

Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by GreyJediAntarFodoh, Nov 5, 2001.

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  1. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    Oh yes quite possible for one to be a gray Jedi, or as it is known by the official source Uber Jedi. Because one uses dark powers does not make one evil. If it does than by one using lightside powers it makes one good. we know it doesnt. However Uber Jedi is not trusted I guess I can say by either side of the force and their powers are limited and weak.
  2. GreyJediAntarFodoh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2001
    star 3
    Kier,

    I am SO sorry to hear about your computer troubles. I have several gigs of orriginal data on mine and if I lost it all, I think I just may die... literally. At least you had a backup and didn't lose everything.

    I look forward to your rebuttle in our debate about the Grey Jedi.



    Jedi Xen,

    I've only recently learned of the Uber Jedi. I've been a SW fan for a LONG time but it has only become an "obsession" over the last 3 or 4 weeks.

    My Grey Jedi are similar to many that came before (Neutral, Fallen, Dark, Uber Jedi) but I intended them to be something different alltogether... An "evolutionary leap", if you will, in the Jedi. My Grey Jedi are intended to be the first step towards living, breathing balances in the Force.
  3. The_Revel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2001
    star 1
    Grey Jedis are a crock!

    Can't use Darkside powers without Repercussions 99 percent of any RPG ive been a part of will never allow them
  4. GreyJediAntarFodoh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2001
    star 3
    Well thanks for your input. I'd like to refer you to the earlier posts in this string (from the start) for my rebuttle. Thanks for posting.

    Further ideas and such can be found by reading my Grey Jedi Order series here:
    http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=4541226&replies=32
    Episode 1 of the GJO will be completed inside of a week if all goes well and Episode 2 will commence as soon as episode 1 is completed.
  5. Kier_Nimmion Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 5
    It really seems that you're making my point for me here. You say that the Shadows' and Vorlons' flaw was that free will and the right to choose is the most important hallmark of any species. Well, I argue that the Jedi and the Sith are both equally flawed for being so rigid in their ways. I think that they're both wrong in thinking that knowing the Force means knowing only the light or dark side. A Force user different from the Jedi and different from the Sith with free will, the right and the WILL to choose is the most important hallmark to a person... Just like with a species.

    Unfortunately, when dealing with the Dark Side, it doesn?t work that way. Each and every time a Jedi uses a Dark Side power, it eats away at them a little more, while undoubtedly causes a rush of exhilaration at the same time. No one is consumed by the Light Side of the Force- and even if they were, that?d hardly be a bad thing. You can?t say a Grey Jedi has more free will because he or she gets to choose which power they use to solve a particular problem. First, as a I said, once you start using a Dark Side power, you start down that slippery slope as the Dark Side makes it easier to do so, (so in that sense, yes, perhaps the Dark Side does do away with free will), but second and more important, I do not recall anywhere that the Light Side so strongly influences one?s behavior- so in essence a Light Jedi is exercising Free Will all the time. Finally, it is a pure and unfettered example of free will when a Jedi chooses NOT to use a Dark Side power.

    You have both said that Jedi "worship" the light side of the Force and that the Sith "worship" the dark side of the Force... You've both said that to be a Sith is to swear off the light side and oppose the Jedi and vice versa. You've both said that The Grey Jedi can't exist because to be a Jedi is to be beyond the temptation of the dark side.

    I never said that, it was Dickens!

    You know what? You're both right and I agree completely! There's just one thing though. The Grey Jedi aren't trying to be Jedi, they're another order called the GREY Jedi. The prefix "Grey" diferentiates them from their Jedi cousins. This is roughly analogous to the terms that describe automobiles. There are sports cars and there are family cars. They are both cars, true but they are also different wich is why we assign different prefixes to them. The same goes for the Grey Jedi who are an order based on the Jedi yet different.

    Okay, here?s the problem. They aren?t Jedi. They?re Force Users, Force Adepts, whatever, but they are not Jedi of either ilk. If all they stand for is understanding both sides of the Force, then they will be scholars of a sort, but not Jedi. Also, if a player playing a Grey Force User, and they are in a heroic group- doing brave deeds, rescuing beautiful monsters from ravening princesses, they cannot hope to continue to use Dark Side powers. Firstly, any other real Jedi in the group won?t stand for it, and second, the heroic players should logically be uncomfortable with the guy who roasts people with Force Lightning, and when he has his little lapses as the Dark Side influences his actions, may begin to question the Grey Force User?s motives. And yes, he will slide and will be influenced by the Dark Side, and if, as you say, he has free will and common sense, then he will know NOT to use Dark Side powers.

    Again I'm going to use Antar Fodoh as my example as he is the founder of my Grey Jedi order. He can never be a TRUE Jedi nor can he be a TRUE Sith and that's just fine because neither are what he seeks as he believes that they're both flawed.

    That sounds like arrogance. A Jedi Knight, I believe anyway, can understand the Dark Side, he or she just chooses not to use it.

    Antar will never be a Jedi again because he uses the darkside but he knows everything that a Jedi Master knows as he studied the Jedi literature in great detail. Equally, Antar will never be a Sith but he has studied their ways, skills and abilities aswell as the summoning of the
  6. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Question my friend, why would the Jedi call upon the Grey Order when the Sith are most assuradly going to call on them more.?

    And what if the Sith believe the Jedi are destroying their knwoledge
  7. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    Grey Jedi hmm? Sounds like pure cheese to me.

    What an overt oveture for players to try and gain access to both sets of powers. Sorry buddy, the idea is half-baked and makes me want to laugh...
  8. Kier_Nimmion Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 5


    Wylding: This is my opinion also.


  9. Detjen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2002
    star 4
    Hello all, This is my first time checking out the boards, and this would be my first post. I saw the discussion and thought it was very interesting and I would like to add my own two cents.

    I think Corran did the best at describing things in I Jedi. The force isnt Black and White its shaded, but theres no real neutrality. You can have a Jedi whos really agressive and quick to actions and is dangerously close to the darkside, compared to the Jedi Master whos gone through his years of training and Is more firmly planted in the lightside and is unlikely to be seduced to the darkside anytime soon. On the otherside there is a Sith Lord who is well trained in the darkside and loathes the lightside, and a person new to the darkside who is still really learning and could easly be influenced to the light. Neutrality would basically be a small line that would be impossible for anyone to walk for more than a couple seconds before falling one way or antoher. Ive talked to several people who had jedi characters who claimed they were neutral and able to use both sides of the force, but they reasoned if you do one darkside act you do one of light to make up for it. They wernt thinking of the pull the darkside has on a person. If you were to kill someone in anger, you cant just save someone from near death to make up for it, theres still the taint of the darkside working against you, and most likely its doing subtle things to your mind, so you dont notice your slipping to the darkside, untill its too late. And its also likely that it would be so subtle it would be almost impossible for even a Jedi Master to notice, as its hard to see the darkside at work, unless its the most blatent things like electrocuting someone to death. I can see a shading ranging from the brightest white to the purest black, but in all truth I do not see someone who could actually use the darkside wihtout grave danger of being seduced everytime they did it. Yes you can be turned from the darkside, but this requres either people activly working to bring you back or a very shocking and terrbile happening that would make you regret your actions, but even then you are still prone to the darkside.


    Hows that for my first post? any critisims, please dont be too mean, its my first time.
  10. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    I have been reading this discussion for a while, and I must say that I agree with the majority here. It is not possible for any force user to use both sides of the Force on a regular basis without falling to the Darkside or recognizing the danger and turning away from it completely.
    There was an FA in one a my games that tried to take this route, never having been trained by another Force user (Rebellion Era), he believed that there was no good/evil sides to the Force. He would use whatever powers were easiest to get out of the current prediciment. Eventually he found that the Darkside was almost always the quickest way to solve his problems and, eventhough his intentions were always good, he began to rely more on the Darkside. He became more violent and self centered, and towards the end was willing to endanger the rest of the party if it served his needs.
    I think Yoda said it right:"Once you start down the dark path, forvever will it dominate your destiny, consume your will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice." The concept of a Grey Jedi seems to be anathema to everything that the Jedi Order stands for.
  11. Kier_Nimmion Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 5
    Actually, I'd like to change part of my statement in my last long message.

    ***SPOILERS***













































    Anakin Solo was consumed by the Light Side of the Force in Star by Star.











































    ***End Spoiler***
  12. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    Could you expound upon that last remark Kier or direct me to the appropriate thread in the Lit section? This concept seems interesting, and I want to know more.
  13. Kier_Nimmion Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 5



    Well, not too much in Lit about it. Read Denning's Star by Star and you will understand.


  14. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    How far into the NJO series is it, and is it possible to read and follow the story without having read the other novels?
  15. Kier_Nimmion Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 5



    Star by Star, IIRC, is book 8 or 9 of the New Jedi Order, available only in hardcover right now. At the beginning is a precis of what has gone before, so it should mostly make sense. It is, IMHO, the best book of the series so far.


  16. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    Thanks, I will check it out.
  17. Sinje_Gawa Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2001
    star 2
    Anything grey is just something on its way toward becoming dark.

    Anyone willing to compromise once will find more reasons to compromise in the future.

    Anything easy has its cost.

    A jar is useful because of the empty space inside of it, waiting to be filled. In order to receive the will of the Force, so too must you strive to empty. Adding rage or hatred to the jar because they are 'useful' dilutes any wisdom delivered by the Force that could be held momentarily inside.

    Have little and you will gain; try to have it all and you will be confused.

    There is no 'grey side', there is the light and the dark. Better you should try to balance on the top of a needle in the middle of a high tide than try to balance yourself between the two. The waves will sweep you in one direction or the other.

    One may gain by losing. Lose hate, lose fear, lose aggression. Lose the desire to hold all power or all knowledge at once. One may lose by gaining. Gain decay, gain death, gain distraction. Gain the ambition to try to hold all power for yourself and the conceit that you can use it judiciously. These are the light and dark sides. Give yourself to the light and reap the rewards. Take from the dark and suffer the consequences.

    How can you stand between the two and strive to benefit from both? They are anathema. One side requires you to give of yourself completely, the other requires you to take everything into yourself and not give it up.

    You can't have it all. Try to be grey and you will find you're just on your way toward darkness.
  18. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
  19. darth_Washu Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2002
    i wanna join.
    stats:
    name: Washu Misaki
    homeworld: Jurai
    age: 12 (actually 20,000!!!)
    occupation: full thime sith mistress and MAD SCIENTIST!!!!!!

  20. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    Should I call you Washu-chan? ;) :D
  21. Kier_Nimmion Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 5



    Excellent post, Sinje.

  22. GreyJediAntarFodoh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2001
    star 3
    I got distracted around Christmas and forgot about this board. I'm so embarassed! I've just been reading up on what's been said since my last post and I feel quite outnumbered by all of the nay sayers. I'll still try tho, cause I truly believe in my point.

    More than anything right now, I'd like to adress what Fingorfin said and others have said in this thread about the Grey Jedi being the antithesis to what the Jedi stand for.

    In my story of the Grey Jedi, the first Grey Jedi was first trained as a Jedi at Luke's academy and was a Jedi first. When he was banned from the Jedi for his practice of the Dark Side, he founded a wholely new order, based on what he'd learned as a Jedi yet different. I suppose it would have worked out better had I made up a new name for his order so that there would be less confusion... The character believed in the inherent goodness of the Jedi and their quest for order and peace and named his order the "Grey Jedi" to denote the philisophical similarities between the orders in their goals. This was not to say that he was following the same set of rules in the ways of the Force, but to denote the comon goal of the two orders in protecting the innocent and fighting evil.

    I know that this barely scratches the surface of the debate going on here, but I just want to make it clear that the name "Grey Jedi" might as well be "insert GL-esque order name here" as it's entirely seperate from both the Jedi and Sith and an order of it's own.

    I just want to end the name debate for good, so that we might be able to move on to the debate of wether or not a Grey Force user is possible at all.
  23. Alion_Sangre Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2001
    star 4
    I don't know whether a "gray" Jedi can hold the same high ideals as a light Jedi, but there has to be a midpoint between the selfless Jedi hero and the evil, power-mad Dark Jedi. My screename is that of Alion Sangre, a post-Endor bounty hunter with lethal killing abilities in the dark side. He was seduced by the usual negative emotions - anger, fear, hatred, want of love - but he operates by a code of honor and professionalism, staying clear of the Jedi, even if his bounties put them on his tail. He's a Boba Fett armed with the Dark Side, a lightsaber, a lanvarok, and more guns than Kyle Katarn. He believes his thrall to the darkness is irreversable, and sees himself as a doomed victim of the darkness - like having a terminal illness, and his hunts for surviving Dark Jedi and Inquisitors, as well as the common scum of the universe, are his way of making sure he is the disease's last casualty.
  24. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    Let's just call the "grey jedi" what they really are: The Sith.


    More than anything right now, I'd like to adress[sic] what Fingorfin said and others have said in this thread about the Grey Jedi being the antithesis to what the Jedi stand for.

    The reason they've been saying that is because fundamentally the Grey Jedi are a perversion of the Jedi and their ways. Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny!

    In my story of the Grey Jedi, the first Grey Jedi was first trained as a Jedi at Luke's academy and was a Jedi first. When he was banned from the Jedi for his practice of the Dark Side, he founded a wholely new order, based on what he'd learned as a Jedi yet different.

    You're welcome to write and create anything you please, but that does not give it the legitimacy that you are apparently seeking. Lucas went to great lengths to show the differences between the light and the dark...there's a reason for that. The two are not compatable. Both draw and operate on a different principle than the other. It like electricity. You have alternating current and direct current. They're both electricity but they are different.

    I suppose it would have worked out better had I made up a new name for his order so that there would be less confusion...

    The name is just a name it's the principles that the powers operate on that concern me.

    The character believed in the inherent goodness of the Jedi and their quest for order and peace and named his order the "Grey Jedi" to denote the philisophical similarities between the orders in their goals.

    Once again the two philosphies operate on completely different principles. Light is not dark and dark is not light. Anger is destructive and peace is constructive. You can't operate emotionally from those two perspectives. Especially it seems with the force. The force feeds the emotion (anger) or peace of it's chosen, furthering them on their chosen path. Dark gets darker and light gets lighter. What we're really talking about is the evolution of a soul. There can be no true growth until one commits wholeheartedly to a path either light or dark. That's why the Sith and the Jedi both have their respective trails...to get the acolyte to commit.


    This was not to say that he was following the same set of rules in the ways of the Force, but to denote the comon goal of the two orders in protecting the innocent and fighting evil.

    ?He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee.? (§ 146)

    Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil


    It's been said that the road to hell is paved with the best of intentions.


    I know that this barely scratches the surface of the debate going on here, but I just want to make it clear that the name "Grey Jedi" might as well be "insert GL-esque order name here" as it's entirely seperate from both the Jedi and Sith and an order of it's own.

    I just want to end the name debate for good, so that we might be able to move on to the debate of wether or not a Grey Force user is possible at all.


    The name really isn't at the core of the issue here and I think you understand that as well as the rest of us. Nice try at skirting the real issue at hand though. I'll say it again, this just strikes me as a cheesy attempt by players to gain access to both sets of force powers. I have to say nice try though, but this GM still isn't buying into it.

    Nonviolence means avoiding not only external physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him.

    --Martin Luther King, Jr.



  25. GreyJediAntarFodoh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2001
    star 3
    I didn't intend to sidestep the issue at all... It just seems that a few ppl here are basing their arguments on the name without bothering to touch on the real issues.

    I don't really see why it is that one can't use both the light and dark sides of the Force tho. In real life, one can use both common sence and deadly force without having to commit to either. What I'm proposing is that if a person in the SW universe was one with exceptional self control, strength of will and personal dicipline, that they could learn to hear both the light and the dark together... This light and dark together would be a grey, I suppose but would be the Force as a whole rather than only one side of it...

    I'm gonna stop right there and make sure you understand what I mean. You don't have to agree with it, I just want to know if you understand what I mean.
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