The Force: A Board for near RPG-like Force discussion for Jedi, Sith and Grey.

Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by GreyJediAntarFodoh, Nov 5, 2001.

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  1. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
  2. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    I understand what you mean, but I totally disagree with your premise.

    When one engages in any spiritual discipline (which arguably the force is) if you are influenced by evil at all or use it or are interested etc. you are in many ways cut off from the light side of spirituality. It may not appear that way for quite sometime, but eventually the truth comes out. That is just the way of things.

    I don't really see why it is that one can't use both the light and dark sides of the Force tho[sic]. In real life, one can use both common sence[sic] and deadly force without having to commit to either.

    Obviously you've never been in a fight where your life is on the line. If you want to survive you have to be absoultely committed. If not, you're dead.

    What I'm proposing is that if a person in the SW universe was one with exceptional self control, strength of will and personal dicipline [sic], that they could learn to hear both the light and the dark together... This light and dark together would be a grey, I suppose but would be the Force as a whole rather than only one side of it...

    There's already been this person. He was known as the Emperor. He wanted to use the Force to bring order to chaos. And he did very well.

    I'm gonna stop right there and make sure you understand what I mean. You don't have to agree with it, I just want to know if you understand what I mean.

    Now do you understand where I'm coming from? Do you understand that from the standpoint of the evolution of a force user in his chosen path that the two are complete opposites? Do you understand that Lucas has already laid down the law so to speak?


    "Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny..."

    --Yoda

    A Jedi as he ages in the Force becomes more peaceful more mindful of the will of the force, more powerful in the Light, less concerned with power but a Sith becomes more filled with hate, more angry, more consumed with the love of power...a grey jedi would have committed simply to the dark path. Oh at first he would delude himself with lofty goals of using both, of being the one to unite both sides, but that's a lie...it's the whispering of the darkside in the Jedi's ear. That's the lure Eventually they wouldn't be able to touch the light because of their spiritual evolution. By then it's too late to turn back. That's the way of the darkside. That's exactly what the lure is to the Jedi. Use the dark for good it'll be ok. That's been the argument of evil throughout the ages. I'm sure that the ones who rammed the plane into the WTC towers thought the same thing...that they were doing good for the world.

    Do you comprehend my argument at all?

    Also, I noticed that you ignored all of my points in my previous post whereas I have endeavored to address each of your points.

    So maybe I should repost my argument:


    Let's just call the "grey jedi" what they really are: The Sith.


    More than anything right now, I'd like to adress[sic] what Fingorfin said and others have said in this thread about the Grey Jedi being the antithesis to what the Jedi stand for.


    The reason they've been saying that is because fundamentally the Grey Jedi are a perversion of the Jedi and their ways. Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny!

    In my story of the Grey Jedi, the first Grey Jedi was first trained as a Jedi at Luke's academy and was a Jedi first. When he was banned from the Jedi for his practice of the Dark Side, he founded a wholely new order, based on what he'd learned as a Jedi yet different.

    You're welcome to write and create anything you please, but that does not give it the legitimacy that you are apparently seeking. Lucas went to great lengths to show the differences between the light and the dark...there's a reason for that. The two are not compatable. Both draw and operate on a different principle than the other. It like electricity. You have alternating current and direct current. They're both electr
  3. Jacen_Solo3 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 1
    I agree Wylding, and i want to add my own pearl of wisdom. I don't know how the other, possibly better GM's do things, but in my campaigns (both WEG and WotC) the players have to run all their decisions by me. I feel I am fairly lenient and i allow a lot of crazy things to happen, but the one thing (which is actualy a lot of things) that i won't allow is for anything that i or the players do to fly in the face of what GL has stated in Cannon, or something that was published in one of the many novels. (i've read all but the X-wing series). This includes the use of Dark Side fore powers without the propper reward of Dark Side Points. I'm not going to tell anyone how to run their games, or that they absolutely cannot do something, but if you do something that is, in my opinion, against the role of the films and the universe, you are on your own. You shouldn't seek the approval of outsiders, you should only worry about you, your game, and your games reactions to your new system. If GL thought this was a good idea it would hve been addressed in the movies, or books. Even other "Force Sensitive" races (Dathomiiri, Jenasaari...) have a light and a dark. and they are rudimentary in their understanding, they lack the specialized training of the Jedi Order, yet they don't simultaneosly draw on the power of both light and dark. maybe if the new "philosophy" you are proposing were geared toward one of these races and their beliefs it would seem a tiny bit more feesable. only a tiny bit beacause nowhere in the books (which admittidly are not cannon) does it mention these force able races can draw from both sides of the force.

    I have a suggestion to you, and anyone else who uses "Grey Force Users" (I WILL NOT CALL THEM JEDI!!!) try to make it believable within the universe we were givin. Don't incorporate major cannon characters (like Luke Mara Corran...etc.) in your games as far as training goes. (this makes it seem like you've got a real important person, and in the WotC system and the reputation score it will change other characters perception of the PC) If you do want to continue to do this you don't have to ask permission or seek approval of other gamers like Wylding said. so please, don't. and if you do happen to ask for the approval of others and they tell you that you have a bad idea, or that what you're doing doesn't quite fit, don't try to convince them that you are right. Everyone who has gone against your idea has stated supporting evidence and sound argument as to why your point of view is skewed, and as far as i can see you've dodged every attempt at actual debate on the topic. This isn't going to help anyone...i guess i've said my part, and i'm done...let me know what you think...please don't misconsstrue this as an attempt at a flame war. it isn't, i'm just stating observcation and opinion and thats what we're all here for.
  4. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    Clarification: my previous post was directed toward Wylding. I did not notice that a post appeared while I was posting.

    When I run games and a character used Dark Side powers, and the more DSPs they get the more I tempt them with the Dark Side. This is how evil works, once you yeild to it, it becomes easier to use its power next time. This is why the Grey Jedi are a flawed concept. No one has a will strong enough to resist the urge to call on the Dark Side once they have become accustomed to using it whenever it suits them.
  5. Alion_Sangre Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2001
    star 4
    I agree - the dark side isn't something you can just use to your ends and expect to have control. Think of it - if any of us had the ability to choke people like Vader, or shoot Force lightning, we'd kill a lot of people just for saying the wrong thing to us. That ability is seductive. I am saying, however, that some dark Jedi might still resist sinking to the level of Palpatine or Exar Kun, although they still wouldn't be somebody to pick a fight with. Alion Sangre also has a slight counterweight to his darkside - he carries the lightsaber of a slain Jedi Knight whose spirit inhabited her weapon when Vader killed her. She acts as his conscience when he draws too deeply upon his anger, and also deactivates his weapon when he tries to take innocent life. Unfortunately, she has no control over his other saber or his arsenal of weapons.
  6. GreyJediAntarFodoh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2001
    star 3
    I see where you're coming from. I have to disagree tho. If I could use Force lightening or Force choke people, it wouldn't make a difference in my life. As it is, I know how to fight if it is needed. If I am in a position where my friends or familiy are in danger, I'm not one to be trifled with. That doesn't mean that I go around breaking noses or throwing people around. Quite the opposite, really. I abhore violence and use it only as a last resort. I don't see why it would be any different for the Force.

    I view the Force as a metaphor for the range of Human emotions. Have you never been forced to fight? I'm assuming that you'll answer with a yes, even if it was only on the playground while you were in grade school. Just because you threw a punch, doesn't mean that you'll resort to that kind of violence at every trouble. Through the debate that we've all been having on this board (wich I've REALLY been enjoying!) I've started to think that I've been truly blessed in my life to know people with the kind of self control and personal dicipline to know when to hold back. The kind of people that I truly think would have the slef control to use both the light and dark sides of the Force. I guess that's what really influenced the idea in me.

    Jacen_Solo3 said a couple posts ago that if GL thought it was possible, it would have been adressed in the movies. When I began writing my fics, I did a lot of surfing to learn of other Grey Jedi concepts and at one site, GL was quoted to say at a convention that there were indeed Grey Jedi and he went on to say that Qui Gon was one. I know that this is a weak argument for me, but I just can't remember where I read that. I just have to ask you all (as fellow SW and net junkies) to take my word for it... Take my word with a grain of salt too tho, cause I have to admit that it's a shaky quote without any supporting source.

    I'm gonna have to make this my last argument cause I don't really have anything concrete. I just have faith that there are some people with the self control, wisdom and strength of will that would be able to balance the Force successfully. That's all the story really is. Above the concept of a Grey Jedi Order in my fics, the stories are about the strength that people have and that in the proper hands, power does not corrupt. That's the only argument I can make.

    If anyone wants to post further, we can continue to talk it over and you can all continue to out argue me with quotes and EU references. Like I said, all I have is my beliefe that some people are incorruptable. I'd love to continue talking about the nature of the Force and about SW, Jedi and Sith in this thread. That is afterall how it got started. And of course I'll continue to plug my fics.

    I look forward to hearing from you all. Cheers!
  7. Jacen_Solo3 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 1
    Jacen_Solo3 said a couple posts ago that if GL thought it was possible, it would have been adressed in the movies. When I began writing my fics, I did a lot of surfing to learn of other Grey Jedi concepts and at one site, GL was quoted to say at a convention that there were indeed Grey Jedi and he went on to say that Qui Gon was one. I know that this is a weak argument for me, but I just can't remember where I read that. I just have to ask you all (as fellow SW and net junkies) to take my word for it... Take my word with a grain of salt too tho, cause I have to admit that it's a shaky quote without any supporting source.

    Yeah, i actually recall this. However, it was meant in the sense that he was more of a renegade when it came to the councils orders. not his preference of Force Ability. We didn't see Qui-Gon use lightning, or choke in the movie and (correct me if I'm wrong) it wasnt present in the book(s) he appeared in either. That is because he wasn't torn between Dark and light, he was torn between Duty and Self. In the end Duty won out. Like i said earlier, i can't tell you how to run your games and i can't tell you what you are doing is wrong, but i can ask you to think seriously about the decisions you make about the structure and contents of The Force. It is a philosophy, and in the movies it is full of metaphor and what not, but you reall have to remember what the Movies and The Force boil down to...The eternal sturggle between Good and Evil, Light and Dark. its not Good, Kinda O.K., and Evil and its not Light, Grey, and Dark.
  8. GreyJediAntarFodoh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2001
    star 3
    Yeah. I know what ya mean. I'm really glad that we've all had this debate here because before it, I didn't even know what the central theme WAS in my fic untill I was forced to realise it here... While the movies dealt with the topic of G vs E, my fics deal with the concept/dream of pure and strong people that are beyond corruption... SAints, even... Just set in the SW universe. Ah well. Shutting up now. lol
  9. OBI-WANS_ANGEL Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2002
    I do not agree with Grey/Rogue Jedi that is what started to break everyone apart at my old boards. I don't wanna see it happen again...:_|
  10. Porthas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    There are a couple of things that are being ignored here.

    1. If the Dark side was easily used then put back in it's place, then Yoda would not have given Luke so many warnings about it. He was constantly telling Luke not to even THINK about using the Dark side. Luke tried several time to argue with Yoda, citing reasons to use the Dark side, and Yoda cut him off but quick. Now, this is from the movies, so it "outranks" or whatever anything in any EU outlet. Period. Yoda made it clear, no use of the Dark side AT ALL. And, from the movie's viewpoint (which again overides anything in any book or comic or whatever) Yoda is a representative to us of tens of thousands of years of Jedi learning. He is THE MAN.

    2. You guys are using the Jedi label without the Jedi permission. The Jedi have defined themselves in a certain way. If you step out of this "way" then you're not a Jedi. You're just some ijit using the Force. Jedi is not a generic label for someone using the Force, it has a very specific meaning.
  11. Lordban Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    Don't worry, Obi-Wan's Angel, we're used to having some rather heated debates here but we never flame one another ;)

  12. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    The Jedi have defined themselves in a certain way. If you step out of this "way" then you're not a Jedi. You're just some ijit using the Force. Jedi is not a generic label for someone using the Force, it has a very specific meaning.

    Damn straight.

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