Saga The Force and its plans for the Chosen One, Skywalkers (and offspring!) n' Rey

The movies outright say over and over again that actions matter and destinies are chosen as far as Lucas' stories go.

Which has been played out in the movies now.

The Jedi are now dead and gone as Lucas' saga goes.

Now it's just Force users who can call themselves Jedi using the name without true meaning or continuity of purpose behind it.

 

Both matter.

 

Yes, it could. But wasn't. A forest can be burned by lightning too. But if I go to one and burn it myself I can't use that as an excuse to justify my actions, because it doesn't. It's a non sequitur.

It obviously isn't "just a dead tree".

Was it about satisfaction? Luke is mad at Yoda for destroying something sacred. He was going to do it too, but never did (that's never explained either). The writers chose, for some reason, to portray Luke in a illogical way. He trained Jedi (so far so good). Then he chose to act on his fears and was an inch away to commit murder to an innocent apprentice (the same guy who saved Vader while renouncing the dark side by casting away his fear). Then he decides to suddenly blame the Jedi for everything wrong. Then he exiles himself in a Jedi temple while guarding artifacts that are important to the same order he says should end. Then he decides to destroy things that he previously decided to guard. Then he complains when someone randomly and conveniently does it for him. Then, without explanation, he finally decides to help those in need while failing to pass on the Jedi way to others.

The Jedi Order of the Republic era and the Empire era are one and the same, with the same morals, standards and belief system.

Who clung to what, exactly? Since when were their ways and teachings the cause of their fall and persecution?

What exactly is an unorthodox Jedi? No, they aren't necessarily Sith or dark siders. But they aren't Jedi either.

The Jedi are not a monopoly of Force users. And if they are to act as guardians of peace and justice, they need permission and jurisdiction to do so. The best way to get that is through the democratic body that represents most of the free citizens of the galaxy: the Republic.

It wasn't because of their legal affiliation to the Republic or their ways, but because the Sith Lord who deceptively got into the highest position of the galaxy used it's resources to betray, persecute and murder its guardians and defenders.

Like the saga itself.

 

The point was that would a tree being hit by atmospheric lightning really cause the end of the Jedi?

The satisfaction that it would achieve what Luke thinks it would is what I'm referring to.

The Republic Jedi order collected and trained Jedi from birth. They were personally apprenticed to a master from infancy until maturity before they were effectively emancipated from them and allowed to be a knight.

The imperial era order did not train any Jedi to the same standards. They waited until the time was right.

Those orthodox standards are not necessarily the prerequisites to the morals and the values you refer to. They are disciplines that were indentured in Jedi from birth because it was believed to be "the only way" to avoid the dark side.

The Jedi did have a monopoly on force users of their potential. If not, besides Sidious and Maul, where were they?

I don't wish to get into a sectarian argument about what a "Jedi" must be.

 

If Mortis and Dagobah are nexus points strong in the Force (where Force Ghost Qui-Gon was able to fully manifest on Mortis) then it's probably likely that Ach-To is very powerful in the Force as well, even Luke reconnection with the Force is via him connecting with the island

 

That was before she knew everything. Now that she knows the truth , she will do what Is right

 

No. But if someone believed that the Jedi should end, then destroying what's related to them and what they hold sacred would help and be consistent with that belief.

I don't recall Luke ever seeking satisfaction for anything. Only his belief that the Jedi should end.

They trained Jedi from a very early age, yes. But they didn't 'collect' anyone nor do they train anyone literally 'from birth'.

The Jedi in the Empire era are under different circumstances, where immediate refuge and not drawing attention is of the highest priority. Their beliefs and standards are still the same, so much so that they still warn about the danger and risk of training someone that old. They are in a less than ideal situation so they are forced to work around the reality that they are facing.

The standards they set are based on their morals and values. And no, it wasn't believed to be "the only way" to avoid the dark side. But the most efficient way to be trained as a Jedi and the safest and less risky way to fall or give into the dark side.

Also, Jedi are not trained from birth. The Jedi receive children into their order when they are around 1-year old. At least I recall Lucas saying that more than once.

Anywhere. Just because they are not part of the story doesn't mean they don't exist. What makes you think that anyone with an innate strong connection to the Force is automatically a Jedi or Sith? There's nothing in the movies that corroborate that belief.

I don't either. What a Jedi is and must be has already been established in the previous movies by the guy who created them. It's the current media that dismantled that and put it up for grabs.

 

But it's just a belief. One that Skwyalker evidently had serious doubts about, regardless of his determination to try and break a cycle.

Stopping the apparent cycle of Skywalkers/Jedi helping darkness win dominion in the galaxy?

Because of the Jedi's policy of identifying and training everyone in the Republic with the force potential and suitability to become a Jedi. Because they have no concerns about facing anyone with similar potential who is not a Jedi, except for the Sith. The existence, or just the possibility of other force users besides the Jedi and the Sith is such an important thing that it would have been an explicitly nominated factor in the Jedi's policies and actions.

No. It has been established as the belief of the order which operates a monopoly on those that have the potential to use the force in the Republic. An individual that strives to maintain peace and justice with the use of the the force and the avoidance of the dark side has just as much right of proclaiming themselves a Jedi, whether they have observed the lifteime of orthodoxy that the old order dictated or not. Luke's 3.5 year long probationary period with ad hoc "training", after enrolling at the age that all old order Jedi had actually finished their apprenticeship - before declaring himself a Jedi is the prime example of when a Jedi can be a Jedi without having to fulfill the lifelong apprenticeship that all Jedi knights "must" complete before being allowed to be a Jedi knight.

George Lucas told us the story of Luke becoming a Jedi and then showed us that it bore only a slim relation to what the old Jedi had to do to become Jedi. So it's George Lucas that introduced the two different stories about what a Jedi must be. I'm pretty sure he didn't do that to produce a schism between opposing views of what a Jedi "must" be among the audience.

 

It's his belief. It's what he thinks to be true. We are talking about his actions.

Apparent cycle? There's no cycle to begin with. That's another misguided idea that came out of nowhere and is never explained how he reached that false conclusion (nor how Yoda clarified/talked him out of it, but what's important is that he randomly burns a tree).

And Luke was the one who saved the Skywalker who fell. Now he decides to kill his nephew who didn't fall to begin with?

Who said that was a Jedi policy or that it happened to begin with? All Qui-Gon says regarding this issue is that had Anakin been born within the Republic, he would have been identified earlier. Identified. Not taken or automatically become an apprentice.

None of that is established or supported in the movies.

Source? Again, the Jedi Order doesn't operate a monopoly.

No. Using the Force and avoiding the dark side is not what defines the Jedi. The Jedi are more than that. And it's their ways that define them and make them who they are. Same with the Sith. Someone falling to/using the dark side doesn't make one a Sith. One has to be trained to become one.

The fact that the structure of his path and training was less than ideal/formal doesn't deny the fact that the ideal/formal is important. And if the circumstances provide equivalent challenges, teachings and trials of what would be ideal, then no harm done since it still stays true to the Jedi way and its purpose. This is shown in the prequels themselves, where Obi-Wan was to face the formal Jedi trials if he was to be a Jedi Knight. But his duel with Darth Maul provided an equivalent if not harder challenge to what he would probably face in the Trials (be it mentally, phisically and internally). Same thing with Luke in ROTJ. Per Yoda, he could only become a Jedi Knight after he faced Vader. He faced him and prevailed without falling to the dark side, therefore making him a full-fledged Jedi Knight. That was the equivalent of his trials, who are still a requirement to become a de facto Jedi.

As I've explained before, the circumstances were different and less than ideal. But the ideal is important nonetheless and is still the way to go whenever possible.

Because there is no schism nor opposing views. There's one view, one way, shown under two different circumstances.

 

Beliefs that people supposedly hold and how they act on them, if at all, are related but separate issues. That's why what Luke proclaims to believe and how he acts on it are not consistent.

Apparent to Luke, whose family, and their relationship to the Jedi, is intrinsically linked to the sorrows, and the joys, that have befallen the galaxy for the past three generations.

Tell me your source for there being these other force users in the PT era that are not Jedi and not Sith,? Surely such potent individuals or collectives in the GFFA would have been a recognised threat/possible ally. The PT tells us that it's just the Jedi and the Sith that are the force users.

I never said that they were automatically taken and trained. Those that they Jedi deemed suitable to become knights were though. That's what Qui Gon is referring to. What happened to all those that were identified as having the force potential but not considered suitable Jedi Knight material (due to anger/attachment issues for example) and left to their own devices?

I didn't say they were. I specifically said that they use those things to guard peace and justice.

In other words, "Jedi" who emerge outwith the orthodoxy observed by the Republican Jedi order (which you are using as the definition of a Jedi, are acceptable provided they aim to achieve the same ideals - guarding peace and justice.

This discussion we're having about differing views of how a Jedi should be defined, and what they must be, proves otherwise.

I never said it wasn't important. It is evidently not mandatory. But only in once particular case, judging by your assessments of Luke and Rey so far.

You cannot proclaim that someone cannot call themselves a Jedi unless they do x,y,z but also say that it's ideal but if you can't do x,y,z because of the circumstances then whatever works is acceptable, and then prohibit application of those variable standards to all others that fall in the second category.

 

And that lack of consistency is random and illogical, which is my criticism.

Again, inconsistent with his past actions, lessons and achievements. Because they decided to write Luke that way.

You are the one with the burden of proof. You are the one who made the claim that they don't exist. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Considering that the strength of one's innate connection to the Force is biological and random among living beings, it stands to reason that it can happen anywhere. Within and beyond the borders of a government: the Republic. You don't see a Force user ruling the Outer Rim or standing out. But they do exist because the Force is part of every living being. The same way you can have people strong with the Force that are not Jedi within the Republic.

No, it doesn't. The PT tell us that the Jedi and Sith are two sects of Force users, which is completely different from your assertion and assumption.

Or not. Unless you are claiming that those that are identified and suitable are automatically taken, and there's no proof of that. It's the suitable that are identified. But that's all.

Nothing. At least nothing significant to the story, otherwise they would be part of it.

There are many ways to guard peace and justice. The Jedi do it their way.

What I'm using as a definition of Jedi is what they were portrayed to be. And you seem to have a problem with their alleged orthodoxy without explaining how said orthodoxy is/was a problem.

It proves you see a contradiction where I see none.

Rey was taught virtually nothing, formally or informally. If that's what future Jedi are going to be, then my point stands.

No, but I can proclaim that they cannot call themselves Jedi unless they do x, y, z while saying that it's ideal to do x, y and z in the proper/ideal way. What they can't do is not do x, y and z or do something else entirely and call themselves Jedi.

 

It's not random. His academy failed. His nephew betrayed him. Darkness spreads. He believes something different has to be done. Projects his own excessive self guilt onto the concept of the Jedi whose rehabilitation he believed he needed to be the architect of. But deep down he knows that erasing what you feel was a failure is not how you avoid repeating it.. There is also the part about the dead Jedi being "romanticized, deified" etc all of which Luke must have felt and still retains that sentiment in spite of what he says about their true legacy being failure. Even in those circumstances, it's not random for Luke to remain sentimental about what the Jedi had and could achieve, ideally. Ideas and practices are different things though.

Luke is a fictional character. Everything he's done has been written that way.

Ever heard of Darth Vader?

You are arguing with me that I am contradicting the true definition of what a Jedi must be.

 

What caused said betrayal and failure? The Jedi way? The "orthodoxy" of it? Or Luke's out-of-character portrayal and decision-making? I'm going with the latter.

Yes, before it was written by the guy who created the character, and in turn it was an inherent consistency and logical progression regarding what he was and was meant to be. The other was written by someone else, in an inconsistent manner and contrary to his character, for the purposes of shock value.

Yes, the guy who didn't follow the "orthodox" Jedi way and instead chose to act on fear and greed. What about him?

I'm arguing your assertion that there is a change/schism/opposition in what makes a Jedi between the PT and the OT. You then said that the fact that we disagree is proof of that, which is not.

 

No. It was Snoke exploiting Luke's established characteristic of feeling intense fear and anger at the thought of things he loved, even if he does not let it consume him totally. It's the impression that Ben gets from the tragic moment, foretold to him by Snoke, that ultimately prompts the portrayal.

The fact that he had to hide his unorthodoxy was as big a factor as his unorthodoxy itself.

I'm not the only one that understands that the Jedi code and order needed to be reformed in order to prevent another Jedi purge and decades of tyranny. It's not just you and me.