Lit The Force Awakens and the EU [TAGGED spoilers. TEMP LOCKED]

Discussion in 'Literature' started by TypoCelchu, Oct 30, 2012.

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  1. DigitalMessiah Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    Doesn't it make the most sense to say that the Force is evil since every time a character achieves utter numinosity with the Unifying Force (Jacen, Barriss) they turn to the dark side?
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  2. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Omni merged his essence with Jacen! The Bota is a Sith botanical plant!
  3. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

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    Jun 3, 2013
    star 6
    "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." It wasn't the Force's fault, it was the users'. And, in Jacen's case (and Barriss', technically), the writers' as well, for being silly enough to do such a thing. Plus, Ganner and Anakin Solo disprove your theory. ;)
  4. DigitalMessiah Force Ghost

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    At the risk of derailing this thread (because that's never happened before), I'd argue that neither Ganner nor Anakin did. Or at least Anakin. To put it in Dragonball Z terms, Anakin did the kaio-ken technique, while Jacen did a genki-dama. Haven't really given thought to Ganner, but I suppose I'd argue that there's a distinction to be made between him and Jacen as well.

    And Stover has argued with your quote before. ;)


    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Oct 3, 2013
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  5. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

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    Jun 3, 2013
    star 6
    I can see your point on Anakin, but I'm not sure; I always thought Ganner was supposed to have connected completely to the Force. If Ganner just did what Anakin did, he probably wouldn't have been able to take out as many Vong as he did. If so, then Anakin could've reasonably torn apart the worldship before he died. Ganner definitely did something different, I think. What Anakin did, it's more like what Jaina, Corran, and Luke did in Apocalypse during the attack on the Jedi Temple (which, except for the whole slew of brutal injuries, was totally awesome). They kept themselves going even though they physically should've been hospitalized.
  6. DigitalMessiah Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    Ganner used the "raw, unrestrained Force."

    Jacen, on the other hand, had to align his mind with the characteristic of the universe, the Unifying Force. Now -- you might argue that this is the same thing that Ganner is doing, because the Force is One, and I think that's a valid line of inquiry.

    Jacen surrendered to the Force. Ganner acted from his nature; action through inaction, he did what came naturally.

    "Do, or do not. There is no try."

    I think ultimately you can argue that these are one in the same -- acting from one's nature is aligning with the Force within. And the Force is One.

    "Feel, don't think. Use your instincts."

    "...let go your conscious self and act on instinct... Stretch out with your feelings!"

    I suppose that Stover wrote it with a bit more Indian influence, whereas Luceno wrote it with a bit more Chinese influence.
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  7. blackmyron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    I'm still of the mind that he was behind the Glove of Darth Vader showing up on Mon Calamari - cleverly hiding his involvement in plain sight with the story of a "black hole" transporting the glove, to a planet that would cause a confrontation between the early New Republic and the Grand Moffs... [face_thinking]
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  8. instantdeath Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    You know, I read the Medstar books for the first time recently, and maybe because it's because I went in knowing how Barriss turns out, but I was surprised at how... compatible I found the books with her eventually turning to the dark side. Her intense anger and desire to kill Phow Ji, and her temptation to use the bota to tap into that "resource" of the Force and use it to win the war. Of course, both of those reasons can be countered by her ultimately not killing Ji and not using the bota, but to be perfectly honest I can't remember if she willingly decided not to or had the option taken away. Nonetheless, we do see that Barriss has a desire for power and exhibits a tendency to want to take shortcuts.

    Now, for the record, even with Star War's occasionally silly sense of morality I don't think having anger issues, a desire for greater power and influence and wanting to do things the easy way is enough to be labeled as hopelessly evil. It just means you're young. Still, I suppose the groundwork is there. I still haven't seen the episodes in question, so I have no idea how they're utilized.

    I like to think that, in Anakin Skywalker's last moments, he achieved "true unity" with the Force. There's a great passage in the ROTJ novel about Anakin being able to hear the breeze, feel the wind, etc. on every planet of every galaxy in that moment.

    As for Jacen and Barriss, I see LOTF as one huge misinterpretation of TUF, so I think it's safe to say that moment of enlightenment wasn't supposed to lead to a spiraling path of EEEEVILLLL. Similarly, for Barriss, I was left with the impression that she simply wasn't able to handle sound a joining. Mere contact left her bewildered. A toddler playing with the detonation button to a nuclear warhead. It's also notable because this contact was forced, not achieved naturally. I wouldn't consider what Barriss did to be a complete submersion into the Force; it's just a glimpse of what such a thing could offer.

    But yeah, I don't think the Force is innately supposed to be good or evil, just as I don't think there are really two halves of the Force. It's all how it is interpreted and utilized by the user. Just as most who believe in God prefer to believe that he is a naturally good being, but I think it's much more likely that, if he exists, he's indifferent.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Oct 3, 2013
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  9. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

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    I've always had an issue with the Star Wars idea that "anger leads to the Dark Side," which I guess is why I was never sold on the idea that Luke was going to turn in ROTJ. He had every right to be pissed off and if he had struck down the "unarmed" Emperor, he would have done the entire galaxy a favor.

    Of course I like the way that scene turned out much better than Luke "giving in to hate", but I felt far more suspense over Luke staying alive than Luke turning.

    I haven't read the MedStar books but it would take a lot more than Barriss getting angry or wanting to win a war quickly to convince me that she'd bomb the Temple.

    Of course I wasn't sold on Jaina being in danger of turning in Dark Journey until she used Force lightning.
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  10. instantdeath Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    I've always justified it by imagining that the Force itself can "amplify" emotions. Obviously, anger is not an "evil" emotion, but an essential part of being a human being. In real life, a good person does not throw a spectacular temper tantrum once and then embark on a lifetime of drowning kittens and bombing homeless shelters. I do think, however, that it works rather well as a storytelling mechanic (which in my experience is often a short hand for "shortcut", but hey). The dark side is always described as being easy to use and very seductive. On the subject of Medstar, there's actually a very interesting passage between Barriss and Luminara, appropriately enough, discussing the dark side (which I'll add, knowing her future, serves as very... interesting foreshadowing). It essentially boils down to Barriss asking Luminara if the dark side would "feel evil"; Luminara's answer is, of course, no, that it would feel like the most natural and right thing in the world. If we think of each Force user as a kind of conduit for the Force to flow through, it makes a certain degree of sense, at least to my mind, for the Force to flow more strongly if the floodgates are willingly opened. Like so many stories of demons, the dark side preys on you when you are at your lowest.

    But like I said, that doesn't really come from any real analysis on morality, but in-universe fantasy. And I'm okay with that. For Luke in ROTJ, I'd say it's all about perception. If he was not at his lowest point in that moment, as he watched his friends and allies die by the thousands, he was certainly close. To him, he wouldn't be acting out of logic, but out of blind rage. He would have been striking down to him what appears to be a defenseless old man (at that point did Luke even know the Emperor was a Force user? One would presume he could feel it, but then again, Palpatine did become very adept at hiding his abilities...). I think the idea that this one act could have irrevocably corrupted him adds an interesting wrench to the story, and lore wise adds an effective downside to being able to use the Force (I've always disliked it when fantasy stories make being a magic user being all sunshine and butterflies, for example). Han Solo could shoot the guy, dump his body in the airlock, go have a beer with Lando and Leia and sleep soundly that night. With Luke, it's a bit more complicated.

    I'd recommend reading the Medstar books, as I didn't adequately attempt to explain the moral quandary Barriss was struggling with. For a book that focuses so much on medical jargon and light hearted banter, Barriss's section of the second book is oddly metaphysical. It essentially involves her tapping into a vast source of power that's far, far over her head, and immediately wanting to figure out how to use it to crush the Separatists. While it's very vague, as the reader has very little idea of what Barriss was actually tapping into by the end of the novel, I do think it's a very interesting exploration on the danger of absolute power. I'll have to watch the TCW episodes to see what I think of Barriss's overall arc, but the Medstar books leave me with the feeling that her transition is at least possible, rather than Little Miss Jedi suddenly deciding it might be fun to blow stuff up.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Oct 4, 2013
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  11. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    I also think it's interesting to note that Barriss' insanity in the last four episodes isn't her turning into a Separatist or randomly falling to the Dark Side. It's the belief the Jedi Knighthood was going to destroy itself due to the war. You could easily retcon Barriss as having a vision of the future that the Republic is going to become the Empire.

    You could even argue she's seen Anakin and Ahsoka somehow.
  12. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

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    That's why her bombing the Temple to keep the Order from destroying itself made about as much sense as Anakin turning to the Dark Side to keep from turning to the Dark Side.
  13. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Well it was a bombing to make the Jedi look vulnerable and force public opinion against them continuing to lead the war.
  14. fett 4 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    And the idea that the Jedi thinking Ahsoka was behind the bombing, when they were the ones who picked her and Anakin in the first place also made no sense
  15. DigitalMessiah Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    @instantdeath Imagining?

    Mace Windu has your back.
  16. Ulicus Lit'ari [Literature Manager]

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    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    More like "Sith Windu", amirite?
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  17. DigitalMessiah Force Ghost

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
  18. instantdeath Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    If you're going to have your theory verified, there aren't many better sources than Matthew Stover.
  19. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 6
    The Emperor opened Luke's cuffs with the Force, remember?
  20. instantdeath Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Ah yes, he did, didn't he? I can't be bothered to keep these small details straight, like the names of the various Rebel officers and off-screen members of Rogue Squadron and the existence of AOTC.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Oct 4, 2013
  21. purplerain Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    There is absolutely no way that Luke didn't know that Palpatine is Sidious. Palpatine being Sidious is something that Luke would need to know for his journey, so Obi-Wan would definitely mention it.
  22. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    May 28, 2003
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    Litizens, please keep this thread exclusively for discussion about information pertaining to the Episode VII and it's potential impact on the Expanded Universe. We are getting too off track here.

    --Adm. Nick
  23. purplerain Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    The post-ROTJ EU is a bunch of holodramas!
  24. Grade Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2013
    star 1
    Actually it doesn't mean that Luke knew what the Emperor was Sidious or Chancellor Palpatine. Luke knew that the Emperor rule over the the evil Galactic Empire and rule over the galaxy with iron fist and had no problem to build two Death Stars, to rule by fear by the power the Death Star had to blow up planets.

    Luke knowing the Emperor's backstory was unnecessary for facing him, since the Emperor was pure evil in person. That is the only backstory you need for the Emperor. The only way to save the galaxy was to face the Emperor and kill him.
  25. DigitalMessiah Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    So if the sequel trilogy features the Sith as villains again, is that going to be a major letdown? Are people expecting a continuation of the conflict of the first six episodes, or are we expecting an entirely new narrative? If the Sith do return, is there any way which it could be done which is acceptable?
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