The Force Awakens Discussion Thread -- SPOILERS!

This is a preemptive strike sort of post....

If we want to talk about TFA online (and let's face it, we will), we can do it here, where we won't spoil anyone on FB or elsewhere on the boards.

 

THEY KILLED HAN!!!!

 

Thank you QHM! I do so very much want to discuss various plot points! I can't right now, but will post in the next day or so.

 

I don't know if tapatalk does it, but forum runner definitely shows the first 150 or so characters of the post. So anyone looking at the Denver forum will see the contents of this thread in with everything else.

I'm not sure if adding space or ellipses before hand will prevent this, I'm just saying maybe bury any spoilers after some text for this first week or so.

 

Got it. I didn't realize the apps did that. Is there a way to delete previous comments? It's been a while since I've been on here...

 

WARNING: SPOILERS INCOMING! READ BELOW IF AND ONLY AFTER YOU HAVE WATCHED THE MOVIE!!!



SERIOUSLY THOUGH, SPOILERS BELOW!



Alright, we good? Then here we go!

Overall, loved the movie. Glad the Wars is back on the big screen. That said, I could have done without a few things. The movie felt dangerously close to being a greatest hits collection of moments and beats from the OT. However, it was done so well that I can look past it.

The only things that really bothered me were Starkiller Base, and Rey's Jedi mind trick.

The ultimate planet killer weapon theme is just played out. It felt like a throw away edition. Especially when the Resistance destroys it so easily and quickly.

Captain Phasma was also a bit wasted. I would have rather her be the Stormtrooper who fights Finn, just to let her do something more substantial than lower a shield. But, I digress.

Rey being able to do a Jedi mind trick felt unearned to me. I would have preferred her to try and fail, and have to escape a different way. Feels like a mind trick ought to require some training, or at least some time to experience using the Force.

Otherwise, I have only a few nitpicks.

Finally, and this last isn't a criticism, just an observation. I love and loved Williams music. That said, after two viewings, I don't find that there's a standout musical theme, a la your Imperial March or a Dual of the Fates. Still, will be adding this soundtrack to my collection.

So, to sum up. Loved it, but feel like there are a few things that keep it from pure greatness.

 

So many things to talk about regarding the movie, it's hard to know where to start! I just saw it for the second time tonight.

SPOILERS! Really, spoilers. Large and small. If you have not seen the movie, come no further!

Is this enough space? Okay.

Rey - who were her parents, and why was she left on Jakku? A lot of articles online have speculated that the reason Rey was left on Jakku is connected to Kylo Ren's defection to the Dark Side. In her vision, she saw Luke injured/damaged and what looks to be the Kylo and minions surrounded by a lotta lead bodies, leaving the impression that this was perhaps a slaughter of "the next generation of Jedi"? The vision shifts to Rey as a young child, perhaps 5 years old, being restrained as she screams at someone to not leave her, as a ship leaves the planet. So my first question is this - is it possible, timing-wise, for the two events to be connected? Could Kylo have been old enough to go Dark and massacre the new Jedi around the same time Rey was only 5? I'm assuming he didn't do so as a precocious 10 year old. TFA takes place about 30 years after RotJ. We don't know how soon after Endor Leia and Han had Kylo/Ben, but he cannot be older than 30. Rey was left on Jakku around age 5. How old is she now? I was originally guessing around 20, which would mean she was left on Jakku around 15 years ago, which would in turn mean Kylo couldn't have been any older than 14 when he turned. Seems a little young for it to me. I did some searching and found the star wars wikia page claims Rey to be only 15 now, sourcing the visual dictionary. I'm not convinced. Maybe it's because the actress is older than that, but she just didn't seem that young to me. On my second viewing, I could see how some of her characterization might be geared towards being a little young, but... what do you guys think?

The second half of the question - who were her parents? Lots of people have been speculating she has to be a Skywalker because of the way Luke's lightsaber triggered her vision. Han and Leia don't seem to indicate they misplaced a daughter, which would leave Luke. But seriously, why would Luke ever abandon his daughter? Even if he was walking away from everything, even if he were not going to bring his daughter with him... I can't imagine that he would leave her in such a situation. Why not find a better home? Alternatively, let's consider the possibility Rey isn't related. Maybe she was the daughter of some of the new Jedi, and the reason they never came back was because they were killed by Kylo? But again, why leave her in such a place instead of somewhere better? One of the people I saw the movie with tonight thinks that the ship she saw leaving as a child was a First Order transport, implying her parents were captured. I can't identify the ship - can anyone here?

TKH points out that it seems Rey shouldn't have had the ability to successfully mind-whammy the guard like that. I can see where that comes from... but at the same time, she had just successfully mind-battled Kylo. Not only did she keep the star map memory from him, but she was even able to read him in turn. She wasn't able to block him out right away; it seems she learned how to do so over the course of the scene. So it is demonstrated that her skills are gained at a very accelerated rate, and given the ability to do the one, it seems reasonable that she would have the power for the other. I assume that she had heard stories of the Jedi being able to do the mind-whammy thing.

A cool plot connection in the interrogation scene - Kylo says that Rey, "desperate to sleep, saw an ocean and an island". At the time it didn't make any sense... but think about it. Where did she find Luke? On an island in the middle of the ocean. It's got to be connected; Kylo's line is too weird and random otherwise. So it would seem that Rey had some instinctive picture in her mind of where Luke was while she was growing up.

Kylo reacted so strongly when the minion told him BB8 was with "a girl". Why??

The Republic and the Resistance - I totally don't understand the political situation in the movie. The government was the Republic? And they liked and supported the Resistance? But then why was the Resistance separate and not part of the Republic? I am so confused.

Old Guy at the beginning - who was he? He says "this will begin to make things right". He knows Kylo was Ben Solo, and refers to Leia as royalty rather than a general. Clearly there is a story there. I am wondering if this and some other side stories will be fleshed out in other media like novels or comics. Hopefully this isn't going to be another Syfo Dyas thing.

Grand Leader Snoke - who is he, and what's his deal?

Poe - Poe is awesome.

Humor - I so very much appreciate that the humor in the movie was not the ridiculousness that we had in the prequels. Some of the best of it was low key, like the stormtroopers who paused and then turned and walked the other way when Kylo was having one of his tantrums.

Phasma - yeah, I agree with what everyone else was saying. It seemed like she was a wasted character. I wonder if there were more scenes with her, that got cut?

Music - also agree here. There were some nice versions of familiar themes from the OT, but none of the new music really stood out to me. Maybe it will grow on me more once I get the soundtrack.

Ok, enough for one night!

 

T, The old guy at the beginning is Lor San Tekka, the "old ally" referred to in the crawl. I'm reading the book. I haven't made it to the vision yet, but I think he's also the one holding Rey's hand when she's a child screaming at the ship. We can hear his voice, say "Quiet, girl!" or something like that. I'm curious about him too. If he knew both Rey and Ben as children then I would agree that there is a connection of some kind, but Ben and Rey had clearly never met each other so... weird. Anyway, I think Lor may be Rey's Kenobi. Nearby, keeping watch, etc..

And, yeah. I loved the movie. I have a lot of questions too, some of which I'd guess won't be answered until Episode 9, but I'm cool with that. Not wild about the cliffhanger ending, but I liked that it was on an actual cliff!

The politics are confusing for sure, but I don't need to understand all just yet. I didn't know what "senate" they were talking about in Ep4 until 1999. The "regional governors" who had "direct control over their systems". Who the heck were they? I never cared. The prequels gave us SO much information and I think people might expect the same from the new movies, but I think they'll avoid over-explaining things as much as possible. It allow them more room to move around in the future.

So. Stoked. To have a new movie to talk about.

 

Kylo Ren is what Anakin should have been in the prequels. He is very torn and by the end of the movie he fully commits to the Dark Side.I like how is inexperience shows and he for sure is no Vader which is nice to see. Vader was in his prime Kylo Ren is still in training.

 

Kylo has some "issues"

i am thinking that Rey is Luke's daughter, but he doesn't know he has one. Things that Han did made me think she was family in SOME sense. When she said i didn't not know there was so much green in the whole universe...he looks at her sadly, not pity, but just sad in a way. and of course when he offers her a job.

I loved Finn...he was great, i LOVED Rey, she was adorable...and Poe was great as well.

i like the rivalry with Kyle and Hux...i felt only weak point was Snoke...i know he's not really that BIG it's a hologram, just hard to really see him and get a feel for who he is, i wasn't scared by him at all.

I said this on FB, Vader scared and intrigued me...Kylo, I loathe...i mean i hate him. a strong word but...there is no redeeming him IMO. bastard

 

Rey and Ben are either kissing cousins or a repeat of unknowing bro/sis love....

Poe is my new boyfriend....

BB8 is my new puppy....

Moss is my new best friend....

JJ loves to make ships extremely larger than originally planned (the Klingon Bird of Prey comes to mind as well as these new star destroyers). Nothing like having a hologram of the DS as a tiny dot next to Starkiller. That's JJ's way of throwing it into George's face, I guess.

OK, we've got two years to debate the Luke/Rey relationship. But who the heck is the character that Max Von Sydow played? The one who gave Poe the map disk? That's my debate....

 

At least twice in the film, that I can remember, we were told "that's a story for later": 3PO's arm and how Maz got the lightsabre. I'm curious if those were teasers for EU stories, or if they're actually important to the main story. I guess we'll have to be patient and find out...

 

Rey seems like she's older than 15, but she does have the brashness and chutzpah of somebody in her late teens or early 20s, so I'm going to guess she's around there. She looked like she was around 5 or 6 when she was left with Unkar Plutt, aka the guy who trades her portions.
My guess? Yep, Luke is her father. Perhaps that would explain his expression at seeing her at the end. And it would explain the latent force abilities. And Luke's failure in training Ben aka Kylo woudl cause him to be wary of training his own daughter and what it might mean for the galaxy. It would also make her a target for the Knights of Ren who I'm postulating were massacring Jedi/force users in Rey's vision. To protect her, he took a page from his own upbringing and squirreled her away on a desert planet.

I read this great article that likens it to proxy wars in our own galaxy, ala the Vietnam War and the conflict in Syria. http://www.vox.com/2015/12/21/10634568/star-wars-the-force-awakens-spoilers-republic-first-order
"An insurgency, supported by a neighboring power, is waging a guerrilla campaign against a local regime." In this case, the Republic is the power and is still trying to sway planets from the Empire to the Republic. However, the First Order is a local regime/leftover Empire and declares open war on the Republic (the power behind the Resistance) by using Starkiller Base to take out major Republic planets. It's an open conflict now and time for the galaxy to choose sides again. The Resistance (the insurgency) wasn't fully supported by all of the Republic so they couldn't just show up in massive force against the First Order. The destruction of the Republic planets and the First Order means that the Wars part of Star Wars is about to break wide open in Ep. 8...perhaps.

As arrowheadpodracer says below, he's Lor San Tekka. Here's what StarWars.com has on him (and is canon):
A legendary traveler and explorer, Lor San Tekka is a longtime ally of the New Republic and the Resistance. After the Battle of Endor, San Tekka helped Luke Skywalker recover secret Jedi lore that the Empire had tried to erase, and Leia Organa hopes the old scout can now help find her brother. Following decades of adventure, San Tekka retired to live simply on Jakku, where he follows the dictates of the once-forbidden Church of the Force.

Right?!?

My new favorite character. That swagger and steadfastness in the face of Kylo Ren's torture. And flying like one bad dude not only at Maz's castle, but blowing up Starkiller Base? Give that dude a medal!

The music was fabulous! I'm trying to piece together themes for Rey and Finn, but perhaps their not as obvious as Luke's and Han/Leia's.

Great humor! That's what SW has to have to make it long-lasting.
I rank this one right up there with the OT movies. I'm going to enjoy this one many times as it gives you great action, costumes, music, humor, and heroes to root for and complicated villains to root against as you watch for potential redemption.
And, oh yeah, the Millennium Falcon action!

 

More about the politics...for those who like that sort of thing. Although it's much more interesting and straight forward than taxation of trade routes!
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/12...h-the-resistance-and-the-first-order-in-the-f

 

Thanks! I'd been searching for info on the Republic vs Resistance myself. In reading up on the Battle of Jakku, I came across some additional illuminating info. It sounds like the Republic made a treaty with the remnants of the Empire shortly after that battle, which would be just a bit over a year after RotJ. The Empire would stay within their region of space, the Republic in theirs. I'm not clear where those regions were... some of my reading seemed to indicate the Empire kept the core worlds (which would explain why the Republic wasn't on Coruscant), while the article DWRD links mentions the Empire being on the Rim. In any case... treaty. So that is why the Resistance was separate from the Republic. And apparently the Resistance isn't big. I haven't read the novel yet, but an article on the novel mentions that the numbers of the resistance are actually pretty small - that at the end of the battle, Leia orders Poe and the X-wings to get out of there because they are pretty much the only firepower the Resistance has.

 

I loved the movie, but as a little more time goes by I am realizing that there are also aspects I am profoundly unhappy with. I had a lot of apprehension going into the movie - not that it wouldn't be good, but that it was going to eliminate the good note that RotJ ended on. Of course no one would think that they all lived happily ever after. I was never deluded into thinking it would be all happiness. We all knew the war wasn't over, and that there would always be conflict to come. But it was always (not counting EU) hypothetical rather than established. And while things would undoubtably be challenging, we didn't know to what degree. I tried to express this anxiety to some friends before the movie but had difficulty conveying it.

Now that I've reflected more on the film, I am really disappointed with the fact that they have set up the new generation at the expense of the old. I've read the articles, and I understand that dramatically speaking the writers needed to create a storyline that had problems the new characters had to solve, and that this required things not be rosy for the old characters. But this much so? I wouldn't have minded conflict, challenges and heartache. I don't mind that they had Ben Solo turn to the Dark Side. But through the worst of the war against the Empire, Leia, Han and Luke stayed together. Now we find out that Han and Leia broke up and Luke abandoned his family to go hide for years? The writers tore them down and apart so that the stage would be set for the new characters. I can't help but feel that was a disservice to the icons we grew up with. Maybe it's partly because we didn't SEE any of this happen. If we went through the events and saw the situations unfold, perhaps it wouldn't feel so capricious.

I really do hope that they have a very valid reason for Luke to have been in hiding all these years; something a lot better than not being able to handle the failure of what happened or fear of training and failing any more future Jedi. Because the latter just isn't the person Luke Skywalker was. Could he have needed some space and some time after what happened? Sure. But to stay away as everything continued to fall apart, when people needed his help, just isn't consistent with who he was.

 

i hope that they do some filler novels for when Ben turned turn dark and just who the heck Snoke is, where did he come from etc, etc.

 

Here is a good article which pulls together additional information from the novel and from other official source. If you want to be surprised by additional scenes and info in the novel, don't read. If you are desperate for more info like me but waiting for the hardback release, then this has some interesting tidbits.

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/star-wars-the-force-awakens-ultimate-faq-164511371.html

 

And a single line, which would seem to have huge consequences and doesn't seem like it can be correct the way it sounds... "For what it’s worth, director J.J. Abrams says he left it up to Episode VIII helmer Rian Johnson to figure it all out."

The wording makes it sound as though they haven't decided on Rey's lineage?

 

oh i don't think that is necessarily true....there is a big group of people who work on the stories...he's just saying that to get the pressure off.

 

Yeah, it would be weird for them to set this up and not have some idea of where it is going.

 

I have wondered whether some of the side stories might be taken up in other media. It might be part of the whole strategy of having all novels be canon now. On one hand, it lets them explore things they don't have time to show in the movies. OTOH it also drives more revenue.

I tend to think that major plot points - such as who Snoke is - will be addressed in the movies themselves, though background could be added and fleshed out in a novel. Ben's story... hm. Seems like it could make for a good anthology movie, except for the fact that it would presumably need to feature somewhat younger Luke, Leia and Han as well. So maybe that one goes to a novel just for logistical reasons?

There were a couple of other tidbits that I thought could be expanded on in novels: how did Maz get the light saber? What is the story behind Lor San Tekka? I've read about him being an ally, adventurer, Force church, etc. But the way he said "this will begin to make things right", implies to me that he had been involved with something that had gone badly wrong before and was looking to make amends. Unless it was just a very generic "gee, sorry life totally sucks, hope this helps" sentiment.

 

Kylo Ren is fantastic. Complex, writhing with angst, a note of unpredictable, and, wow, fabulous fashion sense. I can hardly watch him sometimes for distraction with his clothing...and who wouldn't be envious of that hair?

But seriously...

While Kylo is a jerk who destroyed Luke's new jedi, killed one of our favorite people, and is helping Snoke and Hux fulfill this grand evil plan, I have to say, he is really has shown up Luke pretty bad. I think Luke does have a good reason for going into hiding, such as finding ancient wisdom which will save the galaxy. He better be ready to come out and kick some butt soon. The good guys' golden boy is really letting the galaxy down right now. While he's away meditating, the New Republic's seat planet and four others have been destroyed, the Resistance is apparently down to only like 7 planes (odd how few aircraft are present at the Starkiller attack), and the Resistance base and leadership almost got blown up as well. When is it going to be the right time to come back, Luke? Come on! We need you!

Kylo, on the other hand, is taking charge and making things happen. I mean, I'm all for the ancient wisdom and Luke probably is right that there's no other way -- that everything else he knew to try failed -- but there's something to be said for taking action when Snoke, Hux, and Kylo are destroying everything in sight and there may be nothing left to save once Luke comes back. I think the window of opportunity for Luke is closing quickly. Right now, Kylo is not that good at what he does most of the time. At least he's doing it, but he has plenty of weaknesses. For example, he's clearly not the best saber duelist out there (though he was badly injured). My theory is, he hasn't had anyone very Force-sensitive and in good shape to duel with since he left Luke's academy. His best light saber practice may be with consoles and empty interrogation rooms, but at least he's got people believing in his strength and willing to follow him. He will get stronger all the time unless someone (specifically a Skywalker relation) can stop him.

Han, Leia, and Luke broke my heart in this movie. The estrangement between Han and Leia kills me. I know it happens, but I wish they could have stuck by one another. Maybe this was to illustrate how taking a path for one's own personal interest only leads to pain? I don't know. I think the movie is well done in any case, as it had me in pain on so many levels. It struck me to the core. They didn't go halfway or make it easy to digest, and I'm relieved. It's a powerful film. This story arch is just getting started, and I think it will get darker before it gets lighter.

 

Reminds me of when Yoda went into hiding on Dagobah after his failure to take out Darth Sidious. And the Empire rose to power while he was chilling in the swamp.

Maybe it's a Jedi thing...