Lit THE FORCE AWAKENS - The Official Movie Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22, Dec 15, 2015.

  1. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 10
    Luke being away though was essential because without him, the Force itself is dormant. It's what makes Rey's "awakening" - sorry, the titular awakening of the Force that is Rey - so powerful.

    Like Kenobi, who is childless :mad:the entire saga, Luke goes from Hero to Mentor in this trilogy. You have to assume the focus is not on the Big Three of the OT and a thousand terrible novels since. Luke's incidental. He's literally the Truth and Treasure they seek. He will mentor Rey, but he won't be the hero of Episodes VIII and IX.

    EDIT: And basically Han says that Luke's closest friends speculated he was looking for the original Jedi temple. It's their best/most educated guess. That's all.
    Last edited by Ender Sai, Jan 3, 2016
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  2. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 5
    I have a feeling Luke will play a bigger role than just the Mentor in this trilogy. He'll also be a Hero, but in such a way as the torch is successfully passed to Rey and the new Jedi. Hopefully they do that without killing him off.

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  3. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    I'm actually hoping Luke is uninterested in involving himself in a war against the First Order. I'm hoping he'll be concerned with Snoke but advise Rey to stay out of the conflict both Finn and Poe are going to be neck deep in come Episode VIII.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Jan 3, 2016
  4. MistrX Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2006
    star 4

    I could see the climax being a Luke vs. Snoke confrontation while at the same time we get a Rey vs. Ren, maybe resulting in the latter's redemption. But yeah, I could see it also being Luke's last great battle. If he were to appear in future movies after IX, maybe he'd have more of a Yoda role, training and advising, while Rey and the new generation is out saving the galaxy.
  5. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 10
    You say this though because you're still expecting some semblance of the EU to be relevant. Because, in the EU, writers wrote stories about Luke and his adventures well into his 90s or something (including the adventure of Han's eleventieth birthday!).

    You need to change that view. This is a new trilogy about new characters. The OT characters are supporting ,not main - except maybe Chewbacca, who will take the same role albeit to Rey and Finn.

    JJ keeps talking about a torch has been passed to a new generation. So, the heroes are Rey, Finn and Poe. Not Rey, Finn, Poe and Luke.
  6. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    If Luke defeats the villain, what's the point of the new heroes having arcs?

    Luke must either die, or be too weak, or be wrong on how to confront the threat (like Yoda & Obi-wan being wrong on Vader), or somehow temporarily taken out of the game like a serious injury.

    I'm thinking it will be Luke sacrificing himself so he, not Rey, is possessed as Snoke's new body. And Rey finds a way to defeat Snoke without killing Luke.
  7. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    Agreed. After all, http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Luke_Skywalker_(The_Star_Wars)
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  8. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    I'm inclined to think Snoke defeated Luke during their last confrontation.

    Luke got his licks in, what with Snoke's face being like it is, but ultimately Snoke won.
  9. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 6
    Yes, I want jedi without the sith.

    Everyperson? The crack shot, space ace smuggler that is on speaking terms with the local mafia boss is an everyperson?

    Fixed it for you.
    Last edited by Gamiel, Jan 3, 2016
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  10. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 10
    If by "won" you mean seduced Ben Organa to the Dark Side of the Force, then yes.
  11. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 10

    Yes, this is widely established. Shall I break it down for you, or do you want to spend time to actually think about it before responding?

    I swear, fandom was better before prequel fans got on board.
  12. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Sorry, but I'm pretty sure Luke was the everyman.

    Han was the rogue.
  13. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 6
    There is also C-3PO
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  14. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 10
    Luke is literally the embodiment of the Jungian Hero archetype, Charles. Han has no special powers; does not descend from remarkable stock (Luke's father is a great hero), and is the voice of cynicism that a 1970s audience would relate to. He's the "cool" one, a bit rough around the edges. An outlaw with a heart of gold. He may be a Hero too, but not on Luke's level. If we, audience watching Star Wars in its purest form i.e. before the Special Editions came out with their changes, the one we were most likely to be like was Han.

    Since, you know, the religion in Star Wars is real but it's made up in our world, and there are no special powers.

    Hence why Finn takes that role now. There's no need for 1970s cynicism, since the world has changed. Identity is a bigger theme now, hence why Finn is the character with no individual identity before the film starts.
  15. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 6
    Fixed it for you.
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  16. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Well, my definition of everyman is a character who has no special skills or abilities at the start as well as a newcomer to the world of adventures.
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  17. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    You realise that the classic 'hero archetype' is also an everyman - even more so than Han Solo, at least classically. Do you actually not know about the hero archetypes or are you purposely being disingenuous?

    The hero archetype also doesn't embody someone 'destined for greatness no matter the odds'. They are an everyman, who through throw own journey, becomes great.

    Finn is the main heroes counterbalance; often someone who is originally self-centred and becomes selfless through their interaction with the primary hero.
    Last edited by DarthPhilosopher, Jan 3, 2016
  18. Taalcon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    So I just realized something. Snoke's physical presentation is basically a darker, larger-than life, warped (idealized?) version of Vader in his darkest prime. Scars and disfigurements even in very similar locations, formed.
    [IMG]
    Basically, Snoke looks like what (perhaps to Kylo) Darth Vader should have looked like, stripped of Good!Anakin.
    [IMG]
    Last edited by Taalcon, Jan 3, 2016
  19. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 10
    Except, Han was new to adventuring because all he did was conduct mercantile transactions on the margins of the law. Putting aside the EU folly of Star Wars as our world with lasers (honestly, between Traviss' idiotic war on terra attempts, Luceno putting console gaming into the Falcon novel, or even the management consultancy of a New Dawn it's staggering how many people don't get It but get paid to write It), it's not. It's a fallacy. So Han being off smuggling and trading with/working for crime bosses is exotic to us but also quite banal in-universe because it's just commerce. Han's a small business owner, and would be like the mix of sloop privateer captain in the age of sail with Wild West gunslinger.

    He isn't royal, though (COPL is dead). He isn't powerful. He isn't destined for great things, though he knows people who are. If we are to imagine ourselves as any hero, it's that we're probably most like Han but might want to be as pure as Luke.

    Again, though, I'm talking about Star Wars untainted by EU and prequels and SPESHUL editions. Which is to say, how you'd feel being a fan before it got its second life with the SPESHUL editions. Which is also to say how JJ feels about it, and Larry Kasdan feels about it, and why they've had the relatable character in this film reflect the times.

    I mean, you two cannot have been asleep during all those articles and blog posts pointing out that besides good actors, good dialogue, a good plot, interesting planets and a good director, the one thing the prequels needed was a Han Solo as the relatable voice for the audience, no?

    EDIT: Philosopher, I assume you're getting ready for exciting second year polisci subjects (can't wait for that newly minted knowledge to show up in the JC soon! :)) you missed where I said Han might very well also be the Hero archetype, but not on Luke's level?
    Last edited by Ender Sai, Jan 3, 2016
  20. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 5
    Interesting observation.

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  21. Ulicus Lapsed Moderator

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Such extremes, however intentionally exaggerated, are not needed. The underlying point stands just as well without them. You know you'll be getting other people's backs up when you go this far, so please don't.

    Lay off on the needless swipes at individuals and entire swathes of fandom, too. For more or less same reason.

    . . . ill-advised.
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  22. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4

    No one is disagreeing that Han is at least fairly relatable (although most 'everyman' aren't meant to be as confident or know the world as well as Han). What we are suggesting is that the primary everyman is Luke - especially in ANH. That's what the archetype is and what the film alludes to.
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  23. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 5
    As a kid who grew up in a small rural town, who wanted to get out of said town and go on my own adventures, and even converted to a new religion... I related far more to Luke Skywalker than Han Solo.

    Luke started basically where I did. With many of the same aspirations. Han, on the other hand, was like some of the "dangerous" people I met who had been around the block a time or two before I met them.

    Luke's definitely the everyman entry point of A New Hope. The Hero that starts as an everyman is an aspirational archetype. He rises up from humble beginnings to become something much more. King Arthur has the same arc, despite his parentage that he didn't know until later in life.

    I think they are trying to give us 2 everyman/woman type characters in TFA. Rey embodies it more than Finn, though, IMO. She's the everyday laborer just scraping by, wanting something more. Finn, on the other hand, is a brainwashed soldier from birth who's conditioning is broken. His starting point, though, is far less relatable than Rey's.

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  24. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 5
    If that's intentional, I'd say it's a strong indicator that the hologram may not be what he really looks like on a level beyond just the fact that he's probably not 30 feet tall.
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  25. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    The ironic thing about this statement (and I feel confident in saying this because you have utilised the same thing against me) is that I have a degree in this subject matter. I saw what you posted and you suggested that Luke wasn't the everyman, or atleast not on Han's level - this is factually incorrect, both in this context and in the archetypes. Interesting that you didn't even respond the last time I called you out on this.

    Both your arrogance and condescension is unnesisry - especially when your knowledge on this subject seems to have been a glance at some cliff-notes.