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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

A/V THE FORCE AWAKENS - The Official Movie Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22 , Dec 15, 2015.

  1. Tho Yor

    Tho Yor Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2001
    According to Vanity Fair Kasdan and JJ started "more or less from scratch". But as I understand it, a multi-writer script like this would automatically go to arbitration by the WGA, and if they deemed that Arndt deserved a credit, elements of his work must still be there. I tend to agree with you, that
    the first half of the film felt very different to (and better than) the second.
    I wonder if it's down to what you suggest.
     
  2. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Whilst I would indeed favour Leia calling her son Bail or Obi-Wan (yes his actual name!!!!), because you know, I really don’t have a problem them going with Ben.
    Luke should btw name his son Owen if he wanted to honour someone.:p
     
  3. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    I agree RE: Owen.
     
  4. Barriss_Coffee

    Barriss_Coffee Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2003
    I had to sit for a really long time after seeing this and think over stuff. Gah.

    OK I'm confused by something about Kylo, and this is more of a discussion thing than a reaction thing because I dunno if other people got this impression at all:
    I understand he has a hard time controlling his temper. But is he also just not that good at using the Force? Completely untrained lightsaber wielders were kicking his ass all over the place. I assume then this might be why he left Luke's Order? He wasn't top of the class?

    Also, question/comment about Snoke:
    The soundtrack clearly lays out Plagueis's ROTS theme for his theme, so I assume they might be one and the same. Regardless: is he possibly (and I know there's little evidence of this yet) draining the Force from Force-users and discarding them? I almost got the impression from Han and Leia's dialogue that they were afraid that was going to happen to Kylo Ben. Not just that Kylo was making a mistake going bad. Almost as if he was being used and will quickly be discarded, and that he wasn't the first. I suppose people with the Visual Dictionary and novelization would know that better than I at this point.

    Also I hate two of you, but that in itself is a spoiler:
    @Trip and Havac you two suck. I kept cracking up at the worst parts.

    And JackG - thanks for posting that photo. I was confused by that one planet.
    I literally left the theater going "DID THEY JUST BLOW UP CORSUCANT? DID I JUST SEE WHAT I THOUGHT I DID? WHY IS NO ONE TALKING ABOUT THIS???"


    Music is stuck in my headddddddddd. Also one of the absolute best ending scenes.
     
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  5. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004

    Well Chewie did shoot him a few minutes earlier, but yeah he seems to be pretty bad at actually fighting, whilst he is strong in the force, though neither Finn nor Rey are exactly untrained in armed combat. She was likely once a Jedi and knows how to use that staff of hers and Finn at least clearly knows how to use a sword.
     
  6. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Kylo is obviously specced as a consular.

    But, no, for real, I think we're meant to assume it's the bowcaster shot that's throwing him off his game. Especially when every other time it's shot something has been used to emphasis how **** off powerful it is.
     
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  7. Barriss_Coffee

    Barriss_Coffee Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2003
    OMG that scene. Everyone in my theater cheered at that. (unrelated to the point of the conversation but that was one of the best reactions I ever heard from the audience in a movie theater)
     
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  8. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    His roaring rampage of revenge following it was great, too.

    I imagined him screaming, "IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE MEEEEE!"

    I know, Chewie, I know. :(
     
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  9. Obi Anne

    Obi Anne Celebration Mistress of Ceremonies star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 1998
    That just made me cry and more emotional than when I actually saw that scene. hadn't thought about that at all.
     
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  10. Stymi

    Stymi Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2002
    Ren and fighting prowess..

    I think his ineptitude against untrained light saber duelists is a legit issue... but the narrative was so fun, I am willing to suspend disbelief.

    But...there are also several ways to rationalize it. His injury, as others had noted. He is also spectacularly undisciplined in regards to controlling his emotions, which can have a very serious impact on his judgements and decisions.

    Finn did have fighting training, and may have even had some rudimentary training in saber dueling, via those Stormtrooper staff things (it seemed they had prepped trooper to deal with lightsaber attacks).

    In a bit of a twist, Ren is seduced by...the light side, as much as he wants to be a baddie...another Vader Legacy...vestiges of the good that can't be driven out fully.

    Rey's latent Force abilities developed quickly. A natural, and very strong in the Force.

    Ren's intent seemed to not kill Rey.

    Finally, in any contest, nothing is a guarantee. Anyone can win, even the clearly overmatched underdog...lots of evidence for this is sports and military history. It's also an established SW precedent.

    Taken together, you can cobble together a plausible rationale.
     
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  11. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    I mentioned this in the other thread, but the whole "seduced by the light side / internal struggle" angle was incredibly weird. It almost leads me to believe that Ren's seduction to the dark side through Snoke was less Vader and Palps, and more Kyp and Kun.

    The dark side, after all, is seductive by virtue of being the quick and easy path to power, and is meant to be incredibly difficult to throw off. Making it something that Ren is actually struggling to stick to? Odd as hell.

    But definitely interesting.

    Also I'll say here, now. Hearing characters talking about the "light side" and "the light" in a Star Wars film is really, really strange to me. We had more mentions of it in this single film than in the rest of the Saga, entirely (0 mentions, 1 if you count 'good side'). :p
     
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  12. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Hmm, over-compensating much on the size are they?

    As to your Q - I primarily had Nick in mind, Jello's response is harder to anticipate - he could be madly happy or see the First Order as foul imitations! Actually, I do want to know which it is!
     
  13. AdmiralWesJanson

    AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005
    Because it would have made a lot more sense to name him Bail instead.

    JediBen well, the size makes more sense when you look closer at it and realize that they basically jammed a Venator carrier under the nose of an ISD to give it a lot more hanger space.
     
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  14. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think the Dark Side of the Force being difficult for some people is actually legitimate as it works well for people who are motivated by hate, anger, and ambition but it's less effective for someone who seems to want to, essentially, honor his grandfather's legacy. Kylo Ren doesn't have the right motivation for the Dark Side of the Force the same way Anakin Skywalker didn't have in trying to save his wife.

    I also think Kylo was doubly off his game due to events he'd just been involved in while Rey was fully open to the Light Side of the Force. She has Luke's ability to open himself up to the Force completely, the same reason he was able to fight Vader toe-to-toe despite a few weeks of lightsaber training over Vader's decades.
     
  15. Aphra

    Aphra Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2015
    Well, I loved that. LOVED it. In my personal hierarchy of Star Wars films, I'm tentatively slotting it above Return of the Jedi (though I've honestly never really liked RotJ much).

    The new characters were fantastic. Finn, Rey and Kylo are the standouts, but Poe Dameron was awesome despite having less screen time. The actors nailed it. When their Star Wars obligations are done, I hope they go on to do great things.

    My personal favorite is Rey (no one is surprised). When she put that helmet on, leaning against the foot of the walker, she seemed so small and childlike. If the previous scenes emphasized her loneliness, that scene showed her hope bubbling to the surface despite it all. I felt my heart break. I thought, at that moment, that whatever else followed, it would be worth it just for that.

    Finn's humor was great. Every joke landed... I laughed out loud so many times and so did the rest of the theater. My fiancee, who is NOT a Star Wars person and only went because she loves me, was laughing her head off. She actually liked this film better than any other Star Wars she's seen (the OT, courtesy of yours truly, and part of RotS), which I grumbled about, but I suppose I understand it. It's accessible to a modern audience. The dialogue and characters are sharp enough that even people who dislike the genre find a lot to enjoy.

    I haven't read LotF (or even most of the NJO, whoops) so I don't have too much to say about Jacen/Kylo and all of that. I know the broad strokes, of course. But Ben Solo falling and betraying his uncle and parents worked for me. There's a lot to be explained there, and with Luke presumably having a much bigger role in VIII, and Rey and Kylo having a direct conflict with one another, I expect a lot of my questions to be answered. I love the potential there.

    Speaking of Rey/Kylo... that fight was amazing. Finn made a go of it, and he gets a gold star for trying, but if Kylo hadn't had a Chewbacca-inflicted hole in his gut, Finn would have been so many slices of Lightsaber Toast. (The fiancee gasped and clapped her hands over her mouth when he got slashed; she thought Kylo killed him). When Kylo tried to grab Luke's lightsaber, and had trouble with it... man, I knew Rey was opposing him and I knew it was going to end up with her but when it did, when it wobbled past Kylo into her hands, the whole theater exploded in cheers and clapping and whistling. It was so gratifying, after everything she'd been through.

    I liked that she was able to defend herself without immediately matching him. She has some experience with that staff of hers, but even so... Kylo chased and she retreated. She stabbed, he blocked it, and she used the time to get a little more distance. It wasn't even, and if he hadn't told her she was using the Force and clued her in to that connection to Mythical Luke Skywalker, I think he would have won. But he says that word and she goes, "The Force? Oh. OHHH." and that knowledge takes her new abilities from "this is confusing but very cool, I'm gonna work with it" to something more. It connects her to history and the most powerful people she can think of. And that lets her dig in and force him back.

    The plot was... very ANH. But I thought it was more homage than ripoff, and there was enough changed that it still felt new despite it all.

    So, tl;dr:

    I loved it, and I'm so #gayforRey

    :p
     
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  16. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    My favourite thing there was the sudden flash of Stover prose that went through my head during that moment.

    "She decides to win."
     
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  17. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Double post, but eh.

    Hm. If you're not the kind of person who is fearful, hateful, angry or ambitious, you're not going to look to the dark side in the first place. Anakin turned to the dark side in the hopes of saving his wife, sure, but mainly because he was a power hungry toad at that point in his life.

    The only thing the dark side has going for it is that it adherents believe (incorrectly) that it grants them quick access to "powah unlimited powah".

    Take that away and it's pointless. If it's more burden than blessing, where's the temptation?

    Honestly, I felt the Vader angle with Kylo fell kind of flat.

    From the trailers, I had assumed the guy was holding Vader to account. Or using him as a cautionary tale. An example of failure that he would avoid.

    "I will finish what you started . . . [but were too weak to finish]"

    Etc.

    Darth Vader is a symbol of the dark side's ultimate impotence in the face of love. That he could serve as INSPIRATION to a dark sider who knows the truth of what went down, thirty years later, is -- to me -- nothing short of laughable.
     
  18. DarkEagle

    DarkEagle Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2009
    I initially thought that Chewie blew himself up too when he detonated everything. "Salvatore got ripped apart for killing Chewie and you guys are knocking off him and Han?!? Gutsy"
     
  19. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    PM away, deary.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    The movies are pretty clear the Dark Side isn't stronger anyway. Yoda says it's quicker, easier, and more seductive. If it WAS more powerful, that would invert one of the major themes of the movie.

    In this case, Kylo is very much what I consider Anakin should have been.

    He's ambitious, yes, but he's immature and selfish and really just posing as a too-cool Dark Lord.

    He's kind of pathetic in some ways, which I think makes him a more interesting character. I also like the fact Ren is actually STRONGER when he uses the Light but deludes himself into believing that way is weak. When he's calm, he's dangerous beyond measure.

    Rage monster? He gets owned.
     
  21. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Well, yes, of course we know the dark side isn't stronger and of course the Jedi have the right of it. The point is that dark siders themselves are, universally, morons who think and feel otherwise.

    EDIT: Though Kylo as a poser was one of my favourite things about him.

    Han: "Take off the mask, you don't need it."

    Just perfect.

    Vader wore a mask because of his disabilities. Kylo wears one because he thinks it's cool.

    (TBF he's not wrong)
     
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  22. Qel

    Qel Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Enjoyed it as a SW movie but still honestly not sure how I feel about it all...

    Just mostly feeling a lack of depth to things, the First Order and Resistance aren't really fleshed out much, characters as well really.. with Phasma the biggest example. As others seem to, I thought it might be Coruscant that was destroyed but it isn't, yet the destroyed system is the capital of the Republic, I don't think the dialogue/reaction from the characters really conveyed that very well at all. The scene with Luke... didn't really work for me but I get why they put it there. Also they've got a lot to do to save him as a character for me, so you defeat the Empire, train new Jedi and your nephew wrecks it all so you go off to live as a hermit, good job...

    Han dying I'd expected from the moment I heard he was in the movie, he wanted that in the Original trilogy so wasn't going to miss his chance now. The 'reveal' that Kylo/Ben is his son was dropped a little early imo and the death scene made what would happen incredibly obvious by showing us everyone was there to see it happen.

    As someone who generally likes the Empire the First Order feel like pathetic fan boys really. Snoke (worst character name ever) looked terrible, but thankfully doesn't seem to be a giant... and the general/Tarkin wannabe was really poor imo.

    Rey was the big highlight for me, Daisy was excellent, I'll be shocked if she isn't Luke's daughter but who knows I look forward to seeing more of her character. BB-8 was good too so didn't really feel the lack of R2. The shot of Finn fighting the Stormtroopers at Maz's cantina/castle with Poe shooting down all the Ties in the background was probably my favourite. Finn developed well during the film, is he actually dead? not really sure. Poe was good but needs some more time to develop fully as a character.

    So whilst this is mostly negatives, I did enjoy the film, just still thinking it over I guess, maybe need a second viewing at some point.
     
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  23. Good_News_Nobody

    Good_News_Nobody Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2011
    So, yeah, saw it too, finally. It was a good movie. But too many core concepts from ANH. Like many of you, I have my questions, observations etc., but why isn't anyone lamenting Han freaking Solo? Even if he had a minor role, he was still one of the most notable characters. He's gone. They downplayed his death. Those bastards.
     
  24. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    He died in a suitable, noble, heroic fashion. Trying to save his son.
     
  25. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Oh, the Spoiler Star is already quite, quite operational.

    I do appreciate the offer though.