the force (light and dark)

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by darth_kaoken, Apr 2, 2002.

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  1. darth_kaoken Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2002
    tell me what u guys think of this
    Chaos was at the beginning. Chaos was everywhere and nowhere. There was nothing at the beginning. There was nothing except a pure chaos. Only CHAOS. Chaos might be understood as mess and evil. But that's what people think. Chaos creates. Everything has its beginning in chaos. Our lives, our Force, our skills. The Force is chaos. Directed chaos creating things, elements, minerals, stones, planets, stars, galaxies...

    We can even say that Dark Side of the Force is the Force itself. Just Force. If chaos gives life, causes things grow, then Dark Side is pure Force.

    Followers of the Light Side may oppose. In my opinion the Light Side is a choice of weak minds. Beings afraid of the end. Dark Side has its second face -it not only builds and binds the galaxy together, it also means the end. Everything in the galaxy has its end. But it is the end appearently. Everything what lived and died will have its rebirth in the Force.That's not the way of the Light Side. This is a hide for the things to come. It is just a hope for something unreal and pointless from the Force point of view. Pointless becouse only what's evoluting (borns, lives, dies and rebirths) has a chance to reach a perfection in the Force, not power.. Only the full understanding of the Force and chaos gives a feeling of satisfaction---
    A'pocolypse
  2. separatist_jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2002
    Wow! thats pretty interesting a description of the ways of the force. So what its basically saying the galaxy revolves around Chaos? This is very interesting and shows insight into the depths of both the darkside and lightside of the force. With it more towards the darkside and against the lightside.
  3. BigBossNass1138 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 5
    From the nothingness and chaos came the Force. The Force itself is pure, it is neither dark nor light, good nor evil, it simply is. As life developed and grew more complex and powerful, so did the Force. As beings started to harness and use the Force, the Force itself was changed. When you draw the energy of the Force into you, it is no longer pure. It is tainted by the emotions you feel, the way that you have called on it. And in its changed state, it in turn changes the user. When the Force is called upon in anger, fear, hatred or agression, it becomes what we call the Dark Side. When it is accessed with peace and clarity and selflessness, it is what we call the Light Side. But either way, the energy is tainted, as it is no longer has the purity it once did. At the deepest level, there IS no Dark or Light, there is only the Force. The Darkness and the Light are abstractions, manifestations of the way the Force is used, and it in turn uses the weilder. The Dark Side is not the ultimate truth, because there is no ultimate truth. It is meerly a certain point of view of a thing that exists simply to exist, nothing more. The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.

    The beliefs of diciples of the Dark Side are nothing more than that: beliefs. As are those of the Light Siders. Each has its own element of the truth in it. The Dark Side philosphies sugest that fear is the basest of all emotions; fear drives every action if you look deep enough. Therefore the ability to master your own fear and instil fear in others to manipulate them is the true way to power. This is true. The Lightsiders believe that fear is the path to the Dark Side, that fear drives us to the blind desire for power and control, that it clouds our judgement an is the root of all anger and hatred, and that it must be avoided; ruled lest it rule you. This is also true.

    You deem the Dark Side to be the true nature of the Force, and the values its users espouse to be the ultimate truths, but you are seeing it all from a fixed perspective, a single point of view. If you are to truly understand the nature of things, you must rise above these preconceptions and realise that the Dark Side is an aspect of yourself, not of the universe.
  4. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Good thread- I wish there were more like this.

    "Chaos was at the beginning. Chaos was everywhere and nowhere. There was nothing at the beginning. There was nothing except a pure chaos. Only CHAOS."

    According to the laws of thermodynamics, all systems become more chaotic over time. ALL systems. Therefore in the beginning there was pure order, and at the end there will be pure chaos.

    Does that mean chaos always wins? Or that there will always be chaos to fight?
  5. opinion Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2001
    star 4
    ...very interesting post darthkaoken...

    ...an even more interesting response bigbossnass...both of you see things far beyond whats obvious, which is a trait i think i have as well...

    ...both of you pose lots of ideas to think about...and they are original...which is very cool...
  6. darth_kaoken Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2002
    ok, good point Big BossNas but Understand that good and evil are merely are merely an effect of events that are placed or take place in the force. The division of good and eveil in the force is relative, it exist only in peoples minds. The force does not recognize this division therefore treating everything the same. The force is self regulating and seems to interbalance. Events seen by us as posotive and negative happen in equal number, but at different times
    Dark Sith Lord Darth Kaoken
  7. separatist_jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2002
    Thats very ture darth_kaoken. If you think about it there is only one 'powerful force' and no darkside or lightside for exists in people's minds. So if that is the way you look at it then the Jedi were brought up to believe that there is a lightside and darkside when really there isn't. If there is no sides and just one 'powerful force' how do you tell what side your on. Wow really makes you think hard and long. I mean who should tell you what is right and wrong in the ways of the force if it exists as one big unit then you find out on your own. Basically the Jedi are saying ok we are the only ones in the universe that can have this power and yeah the Sith oppose this but if you think about it the Sith want Change and the Jedi are afraid of this Change. The Sith are rebelling against the Jedi for some reason basically because they don't like their ways or the way they are running the Galaxy.

    Just my thoughts,
    Later,
    separatist_jedi
  8. Darth_Biznaccio Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2002
    star 2
  9. Yoda-Wan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 1
    The difference between the light and dark side of the force, as well as the struggle jedi face between the light and dark side is directly parallel to the struggle between good and evil that has been debated in all culture and religion. God and Satan in Christianity, Seth and Horace in ancient Egypt religion, etc. etc. At the begining, there was no good and no evil....there just was. Evil came about out of greed- Satan wanted worshiped like god, thus opposition to god arose. Seth wanted the throne, he warred, chaos arose. And the list goes on and on.
    The nature of the force is likewise. The force just was. The force was used for the good of people only. Not personal gain, not attack, only what people would deem good. Then the Sith arose, they were greedy, they wanted to use the force for they're own personal glory. Hence arose the dark side. The struggle arose. Classic struggle of the ages.
    The dark side is at its roots, fueled from selfishness. A lust for power. The light side is fueled from unselfishness. Putting the good of others first. To put others first means to master fear. Not be afraid of any hardships you will face. To only think about yourself is cowardess. To be afraid of what you could be missing.
  10. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    The Force can only be in balance when nothing is interrupting its flow. The Jedi must have had it correct, in the beginning, but as with all things, when only viewed from one point of view, become lopsided.

    Reading, somewhere, that the Jedi started off, and are still, as a glorious philosophy group, I have always felt that the Sith were nothing more than a small faction of Jedi who had a different philosophy than the Jedi. I hope that George presents the Siths view of the Force. And that hope extends to wanting it to be a more alluring view than a bunch of tiny cretons called Midichlorians. <<ie:Yoda's explanation of the Force in ESB was definately not about Midichlorians, but something more harmonious! and yes, the public voiced their opinions of that! neat!>>

    The Force is out there. And as has been said in a preivous post, it's when one chooses to do something with it, that defines it's dark or light values.

    I think the Jedi were on to something. But I'm starting to question whether or not it's a Jedi trait or not. I tend to look at things on a scale. We have Jedi on one side, and the Sith on the other. To me, and seeing there is an inbalance, this suggests the Force, if followed correctly, lies right in the middle. So lets say the Force is affected by these so-called Midichlorians. The Jedi belief is to listen to the Midichlorians and they're guided by them, so everything is in "harmony." We dont know know, yet, how the Sith believe, but what I'd imagine is they'd be the opposite. Instead of listening to those little cretons, the Sith direct the Midichlorians. For example, if Qui-Gon wants to lift a box, he listens to the Force...then asks those little pieces of crap to lift the box.
    Now...remember that small object Darth Maul made fly at the door button? Do you really think he asked those little cretons to move the box? No frickin way! If I'm right, he , as any Sith, would MAKE those cretons move the object. I kinda feel that would make the most sense, since the Jedi seem so bent on saying how they only "ask" the Midichlorians to do things or let themselves be guided. It makes sense that the Sith would be the exact opposite and would, in turn, guide the Midichlorians or tell them to execute their wishes.
    But, now, remember that, if on an imaginary scale, the Jedi are on one side and the Sith are on the other. Whats in the middle? Well, if I read correctly, Qui-Gon is considered a Jedi, but he has radical views. In fact, the way the book and movie suggest, even though most of his views are not liked by the council, they are more in tune with the Force, itself. His beliefs are that in every situation a different result may come about. This wasn't said about him, but this is how I sum up his character....that he was so attuned to the Force, that if he knew that if used correctly, the Force may guide him to do something which is not liked by the Republics Laws or by the Council itself. Basically like if some guy stole something on Coruscant, the Force may guide him to arrest that person, but if the same person stole something on Naboo, the Force would guide him not to do anything.
    But, since that kind of view is not totally the way the Jedi Council feels, then that suggests, to me, that Qui-Gon, like probably a few others, is closer to this "middle" on the scale than the Jedi or Sith. So lets call this middle Muba for the heck of it. You see, Qui-Gon was not allowed on the Jedi Council. And with the admission that colours of the blades, for most cases, indicates bad (red) and the various degrees of good (yellow, blue, green, purple), that even though the average of all the Jedi leans closer to one side of the scale, there are a number of Jedi who are close to Muba. And seeing that Jedi do allow varying degrees of good, it's possible some Jedi are past the Muba<middle> and heading towards Sith territory. Why would that mean anything?
    Simple...because if one is attuned to the Force, as Qui-Gon suggests, then the Force will guide them, all the same way. But it appears some Jedi obviously do not let the Force gu
  11. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    darth_kaoken; You are a true Sith. So, from my Jedi point of view, you are dangerous. ;)

    The Force is a power that some beings are able to use. How you use this power is a matter of light and dark. A being that is strong in the Force ultimately has the power to rule the lives and fates of other beings. How this Force-sensitive being decides to use his or her abilities is what decides not only if there will be light or darkness, but also what will become of other beings' lives. This can be compared to things that happen on our planet. Both Adolf Hitler and Nelson Mandela have had the power to rule other's fates. The former chose the way of the dark - domination and personal gain and power through complete and violent control of others, while the latter chose the way of the light - to dedicate one's life and powers to serve others selflessly and give your powers to the fight for the well-being of others and the importance of the bigger picture. This difference is also illustrated in the Star Wars universe, by beings like Palpatine and Yoda.

    I heartily disagree with the notion that the dark side represents creation. It represents destruction. One can argue that destruction is a premise for creation, but this does not make the deeds of the Sith any more honourable. It's impossible to claim that there is no other way than destroying the Jedi and the Republic - that is a matter of belief. As a Jedi, I can never agree to the belief that hundreds of worlds and billions of lives is a necessary sacrifice to create a better government. And anyway - this is not the goal of the Sith either; their objective is to rule and dominate others for their own pleasure and well-being, not to make the galaxy a better place for everyone. This objective is what separates Sith and Jedi; the Sith play the game for personal gain and short-term winnings, as well as domination of the galaxy - the Jedi play the game to serve and protect the lives and well-being of others and give their lives to secure stability and peace.

    Whether the Jedi succeed or not is a matter for discussion, but it does not make the way of the Sith any more honourable. The point is their objective. The Sith are only concerned with exploiting everything for their personal gain - the path of the dark side. This is ultimately a path to madness and death, and thus it has always been defeated - sooner or later. It can not prevail over the light, even if it seems more tempting in the short-term and for personal winnings. The way of the light is harder, more incomprehensible - but ultimately the stronger and better.

    Be mindful ---
    this where people tread wrong.
  12. Darth_Biznaccio Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2002
    star 2
  13. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    LordIsurus;

    George Lucas has stated that the dark side of the Force IS imbalance (Empire October 1999), which means that his view of the Force differs radically from the view you present in your post.

    Personally I haven't thought much in the way of who understands the Force best. I tend to believe that the Force isn't something you can understand, like a book. It's the energy created by all living things, and getting in tune with it to the point where you can master it like a physical entity doesn't necessarily give you an understanding of what the Force "wants". To me, there is no extremes or middles of the Force itself. There are just different ways in which a trained individual can use it, and different purposes for which it can be used. The Force itself is just simply the Force. When the Sith reappear, they start abusing the Force (ie using it to dominate and for their personal gain) - which brings the Force out of balance. Something is wrong.

    I don't think the Jedi turn to the midis to learn what needs to be done. Sure the midis speak to them, telling them the will of the Force. But as Kenobi says - the Force controls your actions but it also obeys your command. Which indicates that there is a myriad of ways in which a Jedi can use the Force, or be used by the Force. Personally, I don't think the midis are as important as some people seem to think after seeing TPM. In the OS Databank, in the piece about the Jedi Order, it is written that a midi count is just one way of testing a childs Force-potential, because some beings with a high count are extra talented in the ways of the Force. So it doesn't sound like a sure bet. Anakin isn't allowed to be trained on account of his midi-level. The Council performs other tests to see if he's got what it takes. Actually, it seems that Jinn is the one who is most focused on midis, not the Council.

    Well, this is a very serious and difficult topic, and I don't mean to shoot down your theories. But I just find it too interesting to stay away from. :)
  14. darth_kaoken Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2002
    Adali kiri, I think i kinda understand your point but u r speaking from the point of view of a jedi, being a sith, I must disagree. First off, I did not say evil was the beggining of the force, i said chaos was, all things begin in chaos.There is no evil present, and no good, these things are all created in the minds of those who wish to harness the powers of the force. I agree that the choice is up to the person which side of the force they choose to ?see themselves as? and the way they use their gifts, but that is not the issue. Secondly, the jedi and the republic were in part responsible for their own demise. In a sense they let it happen. They saw what was going on, yet remained true to their rigid code, and stiff way of being. Do u honestly think if the jedi had taken the offensive against the sith and federation they would have been defeated, I think not. But of course the jedi will say ?we defend not attack????.? But this way of thinking eliminates their chance for existence.

    """the path of the dark side. This is ultimately a path to madness and death, and thus it has always been defeated - sooner or later. It can not prevail over the light"""

    This statement I totally disagree with. Have u been watching star wars, if u r to say that then u must also conclude that the ways of the light side ultimately result in death and demise because that is exactly what happened. And keep this in mind,, the dark side was defeated by a jedi who would not exist if the ways and rules of the jedi had not been disobeyed, not once, but twice, consider this??
    Signed. Darth_kaoken?.Dark Lord Of The Sith.
  15. darth_kaoken Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2002
    lord isurus, u also had a valid , point, both sides have their bad points and good, i would respond to everythiung u said , but im tired, so ill do it tommorow,,,, hey even a sith must sleep
    signed, Darth Lord Kaoken, Dark Lord
    Of The Sith
  16. separatist_jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2002
    Both sides have their strong sides and their weak sides. As for the all powerful force where the dark and light side exist only in the mind. In the Jedi's view they have to follow the strict ways of the Jedi order or be punished. Think about it no restrictions, no boundries, just you and the will of the force allowing you to test the limits and make your decision where you stand. If you show remorse or fear it will lead to your downfall but if you allow yourself to open up and test the limits you will then know how far to push yourself whether it be the darkside or the light. I say just be thankful that you are gifted in the ways of the powerful force.

    Later,
    separatist_jedi
  17. Yoda-Wan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 1
    To say the begining was chaos is truth but only from a certain point of view. The chaos would only exist from the point of view of creatures unatuned to the force. There would be no unifying thing in the galaxy. But the force still existed. The force was the force. The creation story in the bible is quite similar. The earth was chaotic with no form, but there was organization on a super-human level in heaven with god and angels.

    Just b/c chaos exists, doesn't mean it's what is purposed. Jedi can listen to the will of the force and use it to bring about its wishes - sorta like self fulfilling prophecy. Hence Obi-Wan can say it controls your actions and obeys your commands.

    And I don't think that the nature of the light side of the force is conformist. If that were the case, there would be no debate at all. And isn't that part of the function of the Jedi Council, to debate the nature of the force? If it were conformist, Yoda and Ben would never had to have a debate over the training of Luke. And even in reguards the decision to train Anakin. Even though the decision of the council was to train him, Yoda personally did not agree with it.

    In fact, I would go so far and to say the Sith are the ones that are conformist. I understand they broke away from the Jedi b/c of different beliefs and you'll say that means they didn't confrom. But the nature and desire of the dark side is one of power and greed.....do you think that Palpy is gonna listen to the opinion of Darth Maul. Nope...Palpy says jump and Maul says how high. It's a singular purpose. And the purpose can not have debate on the means. If there is decention, then the leader must eliminate the "trouble maker" or he will be a threat to him.
  18. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Very good points, Yoda-Wan. I think the very existence of the "only 2" rule proves that the Sith are extreme conformists.

    darth_kaoken;

    Hmmm, I don't really think a Sith and a Jedi will ever agree on these things. But I will continue to oppose you. After all, I'll never turn to the dark side- ;)

    That the Jedi (sort of and maybe) partly let themselves be destroyed because they stuck to their ideals of defending and not attacking does not make their ideals any less good. You cannot tell what the outcome would have been HAD the Jedi decided to go to war against the Sith or the Separatists or whatever elusive evil reared its head back in the last days of the Republic. Although as you are a Sith, I understand your point view is that confrontation and violence seems to be the easiest way out in the short-term. But there is more to this than the short-term.

    What the Jedi do know is that the consequences of thousands of Jedi going on the attack without being challenged could be devastating, with the Order breaking up and many Jedi falling to the dark side. Nothing would be gained by this, it is folly. Just like Luke was wrong to run off and fight Vader in TESB - it was never a good idea. Nothing good has ever come out of the Jedi being aggressive - it has only ever spawned dark side masters, destruction and suffering. The Jedi Code says use the Force only for knowledge and defense, never for attack. Being a Sith, it is your nature to disagree with this. But this is the way that defeated the Sith, also in RotJ. Luke is only able to conquer Vader and his Emperor when he stays true to Kenobi and Yoda's instructions and refuses to be aggressive. Then, only then, does he break free from Palpatine's machinations. And the dark side is defeated, as it always is.

    "Defend, not attack" didn't eliminate their chance of existense. When this conflict is all over, the Jedi had returned in Luke Skywalker, and the Sith were gone. Not even the wisest can see how there could have been any other way through these desperate times than the one the Jedi stuck to. The Jedi are concerned with a large and incomprehensible picture, while the Sith are only concerned with dominating there and then. This makes the Sith incredibly strong in fighting the Jedi - short term. But they can never prevail in the end, because their ways are destructive, egocentric and concerned only with the power of death.

    I see you disagree that the way of the dark side is the way to madness and death, as you should when you are a Sith. Your point that the entire Jedi Order was wiped out is not a very good one. They were wiped out by a Sith who turned the entire galaxy around and destroyed a Republic and the Jedi. It's impossible to blame the Jedi Code for this. And it's impossible to say that anything would have been better had the Jedi been aggressive. On the contrary, it could just as well have been worse. Still the outcome remains - the light side defeated the dark side. In the end.

    You're right that Luke would not have been trained as a Jedi had the Code been followed exactly. Well, neither would Anakin, and Palpatine might not have gotten the upper hand after all. So this really might work both ways. And anyway, the training of both proves that the Jedi aren't conformist, neither before nor after the great purge.

    May the Force be with you.
  19. BigBossNass1138 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 5
    I disagree with Lucas about the Dark Side = imbalance. I belive that at first, when the Jedi first became Knights and defenders, the Force was in ballance. The Dark Side existed, because there will always be people who will take the easy way out, the quick way that grants instant power. This is the nature of the universe, and hence the nature of the Force. But some Darksiders found a way to physically strengthen the Dark side of the Force. The deliberate causing of fear, pain and suffering. These emotions all resonate in the Force, and the Dark Side is made stronger, and the user is made stronger, and the cycle repeats. These are the Sith teachings. They take use of the Dark Side to the next level, beyond the simple use of agression to gain the upper hand. This created an imballance in the Force, a shift in the nature of things. But the imballence is also caused by the Jedi. In the time of the prequels, the Jedi are at the peak of their power. They have the resources to do whatever they wish, but they are little more than the senate's police force. The council is too set in its ways, it is dominated by tradition and ritual, and it does not accept dissention. The Jedi, who were once shining defenders, their swords the light in the darkness, have become as mired in beuracracy as the senate. They no longer exist for the greater good, they exist to furthur their own aims. This is of the Dark Side, you may say. But individual Jedi are not of the Dark Side, the entire organisation that they make up, the living entity that is the Jedi order, may be. With the Jedi in a state such as this, Balance is impossible. It was prophecised after the rise of the Sith teachings that in the time of greatest darkness, a savior would come, and restore the Balance. But he can not do that simply by wiping out the Sith. The entire structure of the Jedi means that true balance is not possible. So his destiny was to erase it all, bar a few, so that a New Jedi Order (huh, well there you go) can rise from it's ashes, free of the taint of the Sith, and pure of purpose.

    The Dark Side is not against nature, becuause it is simply a reflection of nature. Coldness, cruelty, selfishness, anger, hate and fear are all things that occur in nature. The Force refelcts the life that creates it. It's sybiotic relationship with life works both ways. On the subject of the Midichlorians, I don't think the Jedi speak to them as such. The Midichlorians are the 'plug' that connects them to the energy field that is the Force. They relay the commands, but it is like talking into a telephone, in that you talk to the person on the other end of the line, rather than the phone itself. The more Midichlorians there are in the bloodstream, the more power can be drawn from the Force, and the easier it is for the Force to hear what you want, and express what it wants. Hence, the number of MC's in the blood is a good measure of Force potential.

    On the issue of which is 'better,' Dark or Light, well, the Force itself does not care. The choice is that of the user, but it must be remembered that the connection works both ways. The violent manner in which strength and power can be drawn by the rituals and practices of the Dark Side will corupt you in mind and body. Evil begets evil. Now, evil is a matter of point of view, but if you use the Force in the ways of the Dark Side, it does not matter what your intentions are. The means are everything.
  20. AnakenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2002
    star 1
    As For those who say "everything starts with chaos" , i disagree , chaos is a random "movement" in random ammounts and random directions ... (not sure of it though) , so , you need something to occure in able to have chaos , chaos doesnt create itself , you need some kind of force , somekind of power to generate chaos , and as josef braust (i might have misspelled it) said "materials and powers , forces do not appear by themselves , but they are the sons of other materials and events" , in the light of that meaning , u need to know that everything started stable , in order , and order is the other definition of the light side of the force , sence the jedi has always "tried" to keep the galaxy in order , using the force , and lead by the well of the force , they have kept the galaxy in order , as it was first , but then , the causes of chaos (another definition of the dark side) have started appearing , the sith have always tried to disturb this order , to "change" it as you said , because they havent agreed on the way the jedi keeps the galaxy as it is , for their reasons they have prefered chaos , they have prefered change ...
    the fact that all things start strieght , and then and with time approaching , things start to change , for bad mostly , due to some outer forces , in this case , the force was all balanced and streight , used by the jedi in order to keep order , then the sith have mastered their jedi powers and used the force (the same force the jedi use , it's all the same one , but it's the way you use it , and the way you train it that decides either your a sith or a jedi) to disturb this order the jedi have created ..

    i havent taken a side yet , the sith or the jedi , they'r both tempting , but i think sence padme is on the jedi side , i'll stick to anakin =]

    correct me guys , i think i need some replies ... thanks ..
  21. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    Ok, lets go with what George said, for a moment. Lets say the dark side of the Force causes imbalance and the light side is in harmony with the Force, which results in balance. I would say that the Jedi Council has been slipping towards the dark side for a fairly long time. A Jedi, one closely attuned to the Force, like Qui-Gon, does allow the Force to flow through him...he does not interupt the Force but instead amplifies it. The Sith, being of the dark side, then interupt the Force's flow, causing that imbalance. But, since we know there are many varying degrees of Jedi, then not all Jedi are one with the Force as you'd assume. Qui-Gon, and maybe a few others, were closer to being one with the Force than the majority. The Council, therefore, is closer to the dark side than some of these more pure Jedi. There is this great shot in the latest trailer where Yoda realizes how deep the dark side has infiltrated everything. And it shocks him, disturbs him, and makes him angry with himself. Why? Because he knows that the Council has become ignorant, uncaring, to the point that the dark side "clouds everything". That, in itself, indicates that the whole Council is being lead down the dark path without even knowing it. And I'm glad we're yacking about this, because at first, I was thinking that the Sith must have had the view of the Force being mystical and surrounding, as Yoda describes in ESB. But seeing it this way, lets you realize that what Yoda describes in ESB is how the Jedi must have believed, long long ago. The Jedi must have been pure at one point, but by the time of TPM, at the least, had become impure.

    Now, it even becomes more clear why the Sith came into existance. Obviously 1000 years ago, the Council must have shown signs of decaying. If it was a perfect Council, always, there's be no reason to part from them. Some Jedi must have realized the Council was not so pure anymore, and decided to find a new philosphy. A stronger, if not more chaotic philosphy. The Sith went in their own direction, because, validly, they must have believed the Councils views were swaying from the original mandates and noone was doing anything about it. And the Sith ran into problems. But they were taken care of, through the manner of destruction. I'm guessing that those who parted from the Jedi Council must have been upset seeing various ideas about the Force popping up. The Council, at it's high point, must have been made up of people extremely attuned to the Force, as Qui-Gon was. So attuned that they would not impose their beliefs on the Force. But now, as is shown, the Jedi are made of many varying thoughts and feelings. Not a pure, sole view of being one with the Force. Ahh....so, if you see those varying thoughts and feelings as chaotic, you see that the dark side is truly tugging at a lot of Jedi's strings. You cant blame the Sith for coming into existance. They were the first group, as far as we know, to openly disregard and go against this slowly deficating Council.

    Will continue later...

    Isurus
  22. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Very interesting!

    I do agree that the Jedi have become complacent at the time of TPM, as the Republic has, and that this is part of the problem that leads to their downfall. However I don't think the creation of the Sith Order happened the way you describe. I don't think a group of Jedi thought the Council was getting "bad" and decided that it was better for the galaxy if the Jedi embraced the dark side. According to Star Wars legend, the Sith were started by renegade Jedi who broke out of the Order because they were of the belief that the ultimate strength of the Force lay in using it aggressively and giving yourself to anger. This way a Jedi could reach his maximum capacity, believed these Jedi. The Council opposed this view and the great chasm happened as the rebellious Jedi started the Sith Order and gave themselves to the powers of the dark side.

    This is pretty much the same difference in philosophy that still exists between for instance Palpatine and Yoda at the time of the PT. I just don't think complacency is a trait of the dark side, and thus I don't agree that the Jedi Order were heading down the dark path and had to be stopped. No form of complacency can excuse the twisted evil and selfish greed of the Sith. But the Council sure are out of touch with a lot of things by the time TPM kicks off, I do agree with that.

    But I strongly oppose your view that the Sith were a group of people who saw the flaws of the Council and wanted to make things better for the Force and the Galaxy. You cannot blame the Jedi for the creation of the Sith just because the Jedi refused to BECOME the Sith, if you see my point. And it's also a bit difficult to base assumptions on the grounds that Jinn is the ultimate Force-attuned Jedi. All the members of the Council may also claim that they are letting things happen as the Force tells them is right, that they are not forcing (no pun ;) ) anything to happen. But personally, I don't think any Jedi is able to fully make that distinction anyway.

    I'll be travelling for a couple of days. See you all later! This is a great discussion. :)
  23. JediProphet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2002
    star 2
    Wow, great thread guys :)

    There are two aspects of the force that a Jedi can master, the unifying force, and the living force. Both are equal parts of the force, but have their differences.

    The unifying force is what binds the universe together, it's the force in relationship with a Jedi and the rest of the universe. This is what gives a Jedi clairvoyence, prophecies, and visions of the future. Few Jedi fully master this aspect of the force, because it's so difficult, although Yoda, Luke, and I'm sure a few members of the Jedi Council have.

    The living force is the force create by all life within the universe. This is the more organic, natural side of the force that allows a Jedi to use telepathy, telekinesis, and healing powers. However, I believe that this is the aspect of the force that determines if you're with the light or dark. How you use the living force, from emotions of fear, and anger, deterime if your with the dark side.

    So the unifying force represents the universe, which is basically neutral, balanced, and the living force comes from all life, which is constantly flowing with emotions, both good and bad, that can conflict at times.

    I think one of the weaknesses of the prequel-era Jedi was that they didn't fully understand how to deal with negative emotions that lead to the dark side. They just assumed Jedi didn't feel angry or scared, and if they did then they would turn to the dark side.

    It is possible for a Jedi to be angry or scared and not go to the dark side. Just look at Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon's attitude towards Jar Jar. Maybe if Obi-Wan taught Anakin how to channel his emotions towards Padme through the force to be a stronger Jedi he wouldn't have gone to the dark side.
  24. Raincitygirl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 1
    Interesting point. Certainly one of the problems I had iwth the Council's attitude in TPM was its seeming incomprehension of human nature. People get scared sometimes. Even very brave, well-adjusted, in-tune-with-the-Force people. Emotions (even negative ones) are part of what make us human beings. So to attempt to suppress certain emotions and say "These have no place in the mind of a Jedi" doesn't seem to be a very efficient philosophy. Because sooner or later that Jedi is going to run across one of those emotions and be totally overwhelmed by it.

    There is a certain cathartic effect to expressing your feelings. If I stub my toe on my desk, and I curse loudly and act like it's the end of the world, I might from one point of view seem to be overreacting. But from another point of view, I'm dealing with the pain and annoyance as it happens, not letting it build up. If I was in a situation where I didn't feel comfortable expressing my fears, my irritations, my pain, I imagine those emotions would build up behind the walls of my repression and I wouldn't be a very healthy person.

    Now, maybe I'm pop-psychologizing too much, and maybe I'm misunderstanding the nature of the Jedi Code. But it seems to me that in the original trilogy, there was more of an emphasis on clearing your mind of negative emotion, and less emphasis on denying that those negative emotions have a right to exist. In ESB Yoda and Ben warn Luke not to go to Bespin, but they don't say "You should not have feelings of loyalty and compassion for your friends." THey simply don't want Luke to be manipulated by that loyalty.
  25. darth_kaoken Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2002
    ok, now first i would like to adress the fact that u say the rule of two proves them to be extreme conformist, i beg to differ. Im not sure how much rersearch u guys have done into the sith , but is know that their were many before, the fact is that they destroyed each other so the rule of two is basically there because of the fact that well i guess u can say siith dont get along the way jedi do, i mean the relationship between a master and apprentice is different , but beyond that sith are volatile when more then two. i would also like to reply to the person who said chaos is not always the beggining, thios is not true, the sun was formed by chaos, the earth and the other planets came about from chaos. Every aspectof existance has come about from chaos , it is the beggining it will be the end. And as for all you jedi out their, i will always appose your way of thinkin , but i will admit u got some good points , but beyond all that the sith will come out on top, because we are free to explore all aspects of the force

    *mercy is for the weak*
    Dark sith lord Darth_Kaoken
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