the force (light and dark)

Aaahh, I hear you.

If there is anything in particular that the Jedi are doing wrong, it must be that they are staying incredibly loyal to a corrupt government. I think Dooku is right in believing that the Jedi should be independent from the Senate of the Republic. The way it is, the Jedi will be seen as a party in any conflict where the Republic's function and it's relevance is questioned, and this must be a bad thing. However, I do think that the Jedi reluctantly choose to continue their serving of the Senate largely because they really believe in, and feel true loyalty to, the Chancellor. This was obviously the case with poor Valorum, and I get the impression that Palpatine enjoys enormous respect among the Jedi as well, as evidenced in Anakin and Obi-Wan's dialogue at the start of AOTC.

Now, here is the root of the problem, I think. Yesyesyes, I think you're onto it here, Isurus. The Jedi's loyalty to the Senate will actually be the very thing that tears them down. As we witnessed at the end of AOTC - the Jedi lead "their" secret clone army into war on behalf of the crumbling Republic. This is all part of Palpatine's great scheme, of course, and a very important part of discrediting the Jedi Order and making way for the Empire and the extermination of the "dangerous" and "evil" sorcerers called Jedi.

Man, I'm so impressed by how Lucas has constructed the plot of the PT. I always pictured it as somehow the reverse of the OT - the evil Sith Lords attacking the good Republic and creating their Empire from the ashes. But Lucas does it way better and has the very Dark Lord of the Sith being elected as the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic and destroying the Jedi and his own Republic from within. Lucas' plot is so much more sinister and interesting than it would have been to simply have the Sith as an outside threat.

Does anyone agree with me?

lol
Sorry, Adali, I didn't mean to upset you. I would have replied earlier, but I've been busy. Alas, that is still the case. But I'm still here, and I'll address your comments as soon as I get the chance.

As promised, here I am!

That's exactly what I'm saying, Adali. The Jedi have sacrificed their freedom of action by becoming so closely aligned to what the senate commands, and now, when it is all unraveling, they cannot break away when they seriously need to. The Republic is going down, and it is going to take them with it, because they are blind to what is really happening. Our Sith in polititian's clothing has the Jedi running around in circles trying to figure out what's going on, but they are all his puppets. Yes, the Jedi respect Palpatine, and that is the biggest trick of them all. We really see in AOTC what a master manipulator he is. We have already seen him worm his way into office in TPM by playing both sides off against each other, and now we see him do it again, only on a much larger, more destructive scale. Because he controls both sides of the conflict. He will let them fight each other to the bitter end, then he will step up from the ashes and take the throne of his new empire. And his use of the Jedi as the pawns to fire the first shots of the Clone Wars was a master stroke. The Jedi have now instigated a war that will encompass the entire galaxy. With this action, the Jedi will have lost more public opinion. Their claims of being "keepers of the peace, not soldiers" will be called downright lies by many. Many, if not most, will be killed in the wars, and then Palpatine's Grand Army and his Sith aprentice will wipe out the rest, claiming that it is for the good of all.

And you're right about the PT plot, Adali. I think most of us thought that this would be the scenario, more of an outside attack, aided by traitors within the Republic. That the Republic would be destroyed, and the Empire would replace it. But the Empire is the Republic, just with some slight restructuring of the government and the millitary. Watching Sidious/Palpatine scheme and plot and play both sides of the conflicts is amazing. And in Episode 3, we will finally see him revealed for what he is. I can't wait.

Good stuff, Adali! It makes complete sense that the Jedi, through popularity and actions, are made to be the bad-guy. I just had a thought about a very easy way to acheive a disharmony with society. Lets go back to the assumption that Palpy is Sidious. If you'll notice, he's not very outspoken when it comes to his role as Supreme Chancellor. In fact, he really just lets the Senators will play out. But we all know somehow he is effecting that will. All he needs a stronghold on, to manipulate societies and consequently the Senates view of the Jedi, is to control the media. In that way, no matter how well the Jedi perform their tasks or how, possibly, balanced they keep a situation, Palpy can put a spin on it and his media will do the rest. Perception is all important and if societies perception of an event is altered, good surely can be made to look bad. The Jedi's creation of a Clone Army and such is just icing on Palpys cake. His media will certainly have enough proof to point the finger at those pesky Jedi.

And as to the Jedi serving the Senate. I think maybe there is a number of Jedi who do believe in what the Senate dictates and such but it's fairly clear their are those who are not liking that situation. And rightfully so. But, it's possible that these Jedi may start taking matters into their own hands. Doing what is 'right' for a situation but since the Jedis role has been reduced so much, what they do actually comes off as another negative to the public. They'll definately appear to be "out of touch" and as you say, seen as "dangerous" and "evil" sorcerers.

And you're dang right about George. What I am very happy about is the way he's thrown everyone off guard. If another was to make these movies, he'd certainly make the movie about all those bad Sith as Adali suggested. Instead, George has gone in wild directions which in-turn expands his galaxy to many more levels. And, obviously a very important aspect, the Jedi Council and Sith Lords, to a few of us anyways, has been given just enough attention to let our minds figure out, in time, how that system works out.

Speaking of George...in TPM, Yoda says that line. How does it go? Fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Fear leads to the dark side. And there was this great commercial where Lord Maul says "Fear attracts the fearful.." and a few other things. Now, I haven't though much about Maul's lines yet, but I was thinking of Yoda's lines. Lets say, folks, that the Dark Side is imbalance. And the light side is balance. If fear leads to the Dark Side then fear leads to imbalance. I've only witnessed this kind of imbalance a couple times in my life. But there's more to this phrase, I believe. One thing George didn't put in was what leads to fear. I've found in those couple circumstances that there is something that leads directly to fear. And that is 'to worry'. Anxiety. And the saying, thus, should be this.

Worry leads to fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. And hate leads to suffering.

Now let me get something straight, as well. I am liking the idea that balance is associated with the light side and that imbalance is the dark side. Where my problem with the Jedi lies is the fact that they are, indeed, off their rocker. Yoda and possibly Mace, as I've said before, are most likely the only 2 "true" Jedi. The rest, I would say are not on that level. But I feel the original Sith were those who weren't finding their way through the Jedi methods but were, like the Jedi, trying to acheive a type of balance. In fact, I have a fairly good idea of how the Sith would see that balance acheived if you'd like to hear it. Again, the main goal of both organizations is balance. But which method to obtain that balance is what is at stake. Hmmm...anyways, thats a few ramblings. I could say more detail about that "worry" issue, as well sometime.

Isurus

Up!

Again, sorry for the tardiness of my reply. Busy busy busy, you know how it is.

Anyway, great post, Isurus, as usual. Some very good thoughts about manipulation of the media to alter public perception of the Jedi. Again, I'm going to mention HoloNet News, because some articles at that site really spotlight your argument. A lot of coverage was given over to an ongoing story called the Baby Ludi saga. Essentially, this is what happened. There was some kind of earthquake on some planet, and Jedi rescue workers found a young human child in the rubble, who they found to have Force potential. As they were unable to find her mother, the baby was adopted by the Jedi temple, given a new name, and taken to Coruscant to begin her training. About a week later, the baby's mother turns up at an aid camp not far away. She finds out what happened, and asks the Jedi to give the baby back. They refuse, saying that she has already been intiated into the ways of the Force and cannot return to a normal life. The Jedi get exceptionally bad PR from this. There are massive protests outside the temple, and the organisation known as The People's Inquest, a group demanding Jedi accountability, latch onto the saga and use it to twist public opinion even more against the order. The saga goes on and on, even resulting in the grafiti bombing of the temple foyer. Finally, the child is sent to the academy on Kamparas, about a month before the outbreak of the Clone Wars.

All of this shows that there are large portions of the general public who are not particularly enamoured with the Jedi or their methods. They have become very aloof, sitting up there in their temple, very distant from the mere mortals they claim to be protecting. Is it any wonder people become suspicious of them? And they were the ones who fired the first shots of the Clone Wars. Considering the devastation that will result from that conflict, more and more people will begin to turn against them. And when Palpatine officially declares them as the Republic's enemies, it's likely that the majority will already be of that opinion.

As for the Jedi and the senate, it's a difficult problem. The council obeys the senate, and the Jedi, for the most part, obey the council. Only a few, like Qui-Gon and Dooku, are outspoken against this trend.

Unfortunately, I don't have time right now to adress the second half of your post, Isurus. I'll do that later today. Until then, MTFBWY.

As promised, here is part 2 of my post.

The Yoda quote in question, Isurus, is one of my all time favorites. That's because my own experiences have proved it to be true. Fear, anger and hate all follow on, one after the other. But, as you ask, where does the fear come from. I think that from a certain point of view, nothing leads to fear. Because fear is always there, at the base of everything. From a certain point of view, fear drives every single action we make. Why do we get up and go to work in the morning? Because we're afraid that we'll be fired, or we're afraid we won't have any money if we don't. Why do we go and spend time with friends? Because we're afraid that if we don't, we'll be left all alone. Now I know this is an extrodinarily cynical way of looking at life, which is why I put the "certain point of view" disclaimer on it. There was a time when I spent a lot of time thinking about this. And I'm going to pick up where Isurus left off and tie this in to Darth Maul's tone poem:
"Fear.
Fear attracts the fearful.
The strong.
The weak.
The innocent.
The corrupt.
Fear...
Fear is my ally."

What it essentially saying is that, as I said above, fear can be seen to be the root of every action a person makes. No matter who they are, they are not free from fear. If you can instill fear into a person, you have a measure of control over them. Maul says that fear is his ally. His appearence, with his full-body tatoos, is absolutely terrifying. You wouldn't want to meet him in a dark alley, would you? Also, his skills with a lightsabre are frightening as well. He knows this, and uses it to manipulate his enemies. Watch how Amidala and the others react when the hanger doors open, revealing him. They are frightened. When the Jedi say that only they can handle him, even more fear is created. They are too frightened to try and go past him, so they resort to "the long way," which would appear to have many more droids covering it. It all comes down to fear. If you can make someone fear you, you have power over them. That is one of the things at the core of the Sith philosophies.

I always thought pride was the root of all we do...


Why do we fear? Because we don't want to be left wanting. It all comes down to what WE want. Whether it be emotional, mental, or physical, pride (and selfishness, which really comes from pride) is what usually guides us.

Exactly. The Dark Side is all about selfishness. Hoarding power for yourself. And with that comes the fear that others will take that power away from you, so you try to gain more power so that you can defeat them. That's why the Sith rule of 2 was imposed. The old Sith wiped themselves out with infighting and backstabbing.

But it all comes back to fear. Darksiders like to think that they have mastered fear, and in a way they have, because they use it as a weapon against others. But fear drives everything they do.

Thats great BigBossNass. And I really like that tone poem from Maul. But I was wondering where or how worrying fits into that scheme. I suppose I could check a dictionary but I thought I'd ask here first. Is worrying akin to fear? Or does fear lead one to worry? Or does fear come from worrying?

And about own experiences. Let me just say that I rarely worry about anything anymore. But when around someone who worries, I certainly sense an unnatural vibe. If worrying leads to fearing or worrying is equivalent to fear and fear leads to a dark side which constitutes unbalanced/unnatural occurances, then I suppose I could say I can sense the dark side. Interesting.

Isurus

Ah, now we're on to something new! I couldn't keep debating the dark/light "why did the Sith come into being" thing, because I'd already done that a few times in this thread, but here you guys have some great new stuff brewing!

Isurus; Yes, I think you assume correctly - fear comes from worrying, and worrying comes from fear. These things feed off each other. That is why "only a fully trained Jedi, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor...", as Yoda says. The Master also says "...for my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is...". This all seems to indicate that Masters like Yoda have given themselves to the Force, that they have seen something that people like Palpatine will never see - that the Light of the Force will prevail in the end. A Jedi that carries this knowledge with him will rest in the Force and will not be afraid. This seems central to what Lucas is trying to tell us - "I am not afraid", as both Anakin and Luke (both incorrectly) state. Well, Yoda knows that they are, and that's why they are dangerous.

A prime example is the climax of Return of the Jedi. Luke is diving into the Dark Side, causing immense suffering for himself and others, because of his hate for and anger with Vader and Palpatine, which possibly springs out of fear. The novel tells us what Luke is thinking when he decides to throw down his weapon and stop fighting. Luke suddenly understands that he doesn't hate Vader. He doesn't even hate Palpatine. But he hates the darkness that has destroyed them. And he knows from his training and guidance with Obi-Wan and Yoda that the Dark Side is NOT stronger. Luke realizes that he doesn't have to fear anything, but embrace the Light of the Force.

And that is the very thing that throws Palpatine's plans out the window.
The Dark Side can not win against a Jedi who embraces the Light of the Force and casts aside not only his weapon, but also his fear. The Light destroys Palpatine and brings Anakin back from the abyss.

Well, it makes sense to me, at least.

Another thing. This is EU, so sorry. I like some of it (Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy is superb and Tales of the Jedi is excellent) and loathe other bits (the Dark Empire Series is tragically awful...). This is from the bit I don't like - Dark Empire.

This series completely destroys the essence of the Star Wars Saga by 1) having Palpatine resurrected and thus the life and death of Anakin Skywalker thrown into absolute meaninglessness, and 2) by having Luke actually turn to the Dark Side but come back once the secrets of Palpatine were unlocked.

I truly dislike both plot points, but there is some relevance in the latter. Luke finds many dark secrets in the mind of Palpatine, through personal contact and through the Dark Lord's books. But the one thing that seals Luke's faith in the victory of the Light is that he finds a bottomless pit of FEAR at the heart of the Dark Side...

Besides the point, but sort of the same idea, I guess...

When Yoda is saying those lines about the Force being his ally and such are very powerful. I read most of AotC but I didn't finish it because I gave the book to my nephew. I didn't get to the parts where Yoda delved into the Dark Side or where he fought Dooku. I'll have to get another copy and finish it.

At this moment, AotC time I mean, I wonder if Yoda thinks the way he does in ESB. But thats beside the point. I wonder if you agree that it seems, at most, that Yoda and Mace are the only true Jedi. I have a feeling that this is the case. That many younger Jedi, even older, have basically lost the root of their faith. That root being, and correct me or add to it if I'm wrong, trust. For once you lose trust and faith you'd begin to worry and fear. Arrogance, you can see, comes from a persons want to squash their fear. As you said, Luke and Anakin both say they're not afraid when in fact they are. What more are they doing? They're lying to themselves when they say they are not afraid. This, to me and by no means everybody, would seem to be a crucial point. When Luke gets to that point of letting go, not only is he embracing the Light, but he is honest with himself for an instant. If it's not in the book, it should be. He must accept the fact that yes, he was afraid, but then open his eyes and realize that being afraid didn't help him one bit. More later!

Isurus

Here's a thought...

If the Dark Side is about selfishness, about doing what you want to do, and using the power of the Force to do it, while the "light" side is about acting for the greater good, using the Force to impose the Will of the Force... then the light side would involve being attuned to the Living Force, as only in the "here and now" can you let your instincts guide you without your thoughts and emotions clouding your ability to follow the Will of the Force.

If all that's true, then what happens when you've got a Jedi focussed on following the Living Force (like, say, Dooku or Anakin), and a Dark-Sider like Palpatine who is actually manipulating the Force that is guiding them? Would they know? Would that explain why the Dark Side is "hard to see"?

Just a thought...

As for whether Luke as afraid at the end of ROTJ, I've always interpreted it as not so much fear itself that leads to the Dark Side, but acting on your fear, and letting it affect the real world. I think Luke accepts his fear in ROTJ, and realises that acting on it could only lead to one thing.

I tend to think that the Force can be with whom it chooses. As I've said before, when Vader and Dooku say those lines regarding whom the Force is with, it's because they are so attuned that they can feel it's flow. I've heard Jedi say "May the Force be with you" and similar things but never stating who it is with. Most, however, feel those lines are just pleasantries. Oh well!

About your last statement. Thats a very important key in all of this. Fear leads to anger and anger leads to hate and hate leads to suffering.

The main word in all that being 'leads'. Because you fear something doesn't mean you have to become angry about it. And subsequently, if you do lose control and become angry, you dont have to let that anger turn to hate. Yoda says that line to Anakin because Anakin thinks nothing of his fear. He feels it's just a feeling. He doesn't realize that that simple feeling, if not recognized and controlled, can and most likely will turn to anger. And if I may say...I imagine that anger is harder to calm than a fear. And so on....if that anger turns to hate, the reason the hate exists is lost and the hate remains. So, in a way, Yoda was trying to calm Anakins fear before it escalated to a more uncontrollable/unstable stage.

This coupled with a few previous posts got me thinking about the Emperors use of the Force. I like to see his manipulations as the opposite of the Jedi...Yoda in particular. So, if Yoda trains his Padawans to confront and nullify their fears so they dont lead to hate and suffering then the Emperor must instruct his Apprentices to recognize their fears but instead of confront them, let that fear consume and allow their hatred of that fear escalate. And, I imagine, but am not sure, that the Emperor must subscribe to that system, himself. That would mean he is filled with hate. Sure, he could tell you he has no fear because he's converted all his fears into hatred, but at the root of that hatred, of course, is fear. That makes complete sense and is why the Emperor desires to control the whole galaxy. That way, he'd feel more secure and by controlling everything, in essence, controls what he fears. Everything. That means if there's any random movement, he'd fear it and hate it, eventually. He masks that fear with overconfidence, which Luke yanks his chain about.

And for some musings...it's at this point when Luke sees that the Emperors ways are twisted. Vader, looking on, embraces his Sithly thoughts and realizes a Sith Lord does not have to abide by the Emperors ways. That maybe the Emperor was a Sith at one time, but now he's just a really messed up old weirdo. Vader, conjuring his Sith powers, tosses the Emperor down the shaft. <I dont think tossing someone down a shaft would be considered a defensive move, which Jedi whole heartedly adhere to> Oh, and if you're wondering why Luke would say "I'm a Jedi...like my fathrer before me" . Well, that doesn't mean he's a Jedi...he was just trying to confuse the Emperor in a way he's learned from Obi-Wan. He fibbed! For fun hehe


Isurus

Excellent post, Isurus. You're exactly right about all of that.

Possibly the most important thing a Jedi must learn is control. Control is everything. Everyone feels fear, it's a fact of life, a constant of nature. What a Jedi mucst do is control that fear, and not let it control you. Because it's when you give in to fear that the cycle starts. You have to see it and acknowledge it, and then master it. Because a Jedi must be in control at all time, must act with clarity of mind and purpose. That clarity can only come from mastering your fears and not letting them rule your thoughts and actions.

If fear gets the better of you, the cycle begins. Fear, anger, hate, suffering. You all know how it goes. And Isurus is right, mastery of anger is much harder than mastery of fear. It is possible to do, of course, but I'm sure you've all experienced at one time or another in your lives how hard it can be to push aside your anger at something or someone. It takes strength of mind. If you don't have this strength of mind, and the clarity to realise that you are on the wrong path, it will take the next step: anger to hate.

When you focus your hatred through the power of the Force, you are using the Dark Side. It grants incredible power, but absolute power corupts absolutely. It's addictive. You use the Dark Side to crush your enemies. Then you either make new enemies, or see enemies where there are none, and you strike them down too. The Dark Side becomes everything to you, and its power will consume you from within.

Isurus' point about fear being the driving force for it all is absolutely correct. Why does the Emperor continiue to subjugate the people when none can challange him? Because the power he posseses has made him paranoid that someone may one day take it from him. So he hides in his throne room, commanding his apprentice to do his bidding. He fears his apprentice as well, and with good reason. Fear drives every action a Darksider makes. They originaly begin using the Dark Side out of desire for power, and they keep using it so that they can keep that power. Above all else they fear that someone could take it from them.

On a side note, but related to discussions of Jedi history ---

"For over a 1000 generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic..."

"I will not let this Republic, that has stood for a 1000 years, be split in two!"

Which one is it...? ?

I personally lean towards the 1000 generations (~25 000 years), because that's what was said first. Going from that perspective, you could take Palpatine's line to mean that Republic in it's current state, with the government structured as it is, has been in place for 1000 years.

2 possibilites. One, is that when the original group of Jedi separatists formed the Sith, the Republic, even though standing for a few 1000's of generations, fell apart and then rebuilt. Thus, the Republic was together in it's current state for the past 1000 years. Could that work?

Two, is considering whos doing the talking. If I'm correct, isn't it Palpatine who says the line about the past 1000 years and Obi-Wan says the line about 1000's of generations. Hmmm..and we know one of these guys has fibbed before. That being Obi-Wan. He seems to exaggerate(sp) things or describe things from "A certain point of view". So, even though by Republic time, it could be 1000 years, maybe there's some planet which has a faster rotation, say 25 years pass in a Republic year, and from their point of view, 1000 Republic years is really 25,000 years. Ahh that Obi-Wan! And that relates to Jedi History in the fact that they twist the truth to suit their needs. Hmm, let me clarify that a bit. I dont mean Jedi like Yoda or Mace. I mean the faultering fledglings who make up the Jedi Order.

Isurus

Hmmmm...

Kenobi will never get rid of that "he betrayed and murdered your father" thing, will he? Imo, that's the only lie he ever told, and I agree 100% with his decision to do so under the given circumstances. In any case, a 1000 years doesn't become a 1000 generations just like that, I think.

It would be at least 10 000 years.

According to the history of the Sith as described in the TPM novel, the order was created about 2000 years before Lucas' story. Wars and conflicts errupted with relative regularity until the order had become too large and self-destructed in a great Jedi/Sith war about 1000 years before TPM. The war that only Darth Bane survived.

Everything seems just fine until Palpatine says that the Republic has stood for a 1000 years. He could mean that there has been no serious threats for a 1000 years, but Bibble says later in the film that there hasn't been a full-scale war since the formation of the Republic. A conflict doesn't have to mean full-scale war, but this could tie in with the Jedi/Sith war I refered to, meaning that the Republic was formed after that conflict. Palpatine could also be very vague, in a way saying that the Republic has stood for thousands of years, but those weren't the exact words.

In any case ... WHY did Lucas put this line in there? ?

I think that darth_kaoken has some great points And so do the rest of you. But I think that the pure force is neather good nor bad and only how you define good or bad is how it just that good or bad not how you use it. Jedi and sith use the force in seperate ways so it is clearly speculation that a firm believer in the lightside have disagreements with the darkside. It may be true that the darkside can overwhelm the person but I think that depends on how you want to use the darkside for good or evil. Medichloarians do not tell the person to be deceptive or evil the person does. The jedi go by a strict code that has been going on before yoda was alive. I think it should be nessasary to continue that tradition.

Using the Dark Side for good...? Now there's something that should spark debate...

Adali's right! This will be a point of contention.

Darthsithattack, have you seen the Lord of the Rings movie? I'm assuming you must have. Remember when Frodo offers Gandalf the ring? He says "Understand that I would use this ring to do good. But through me it would weild a power to great and terrible to imagine." The Dark Side of the Force is the same. No matter what your intentions for it are, it will always be wrong. The ends do not justify the means. You will be corrupted and eaten away from within by the power of the Dark Side, twisted and changed into someone different. In the end it will all come back to the desire for power, and you won't be able to give up the Dark Side. The Force is not a tool, it's a way of life. You can't just use it. It uses you at the same time.

Sorry I couldn't make this a longer post, I don't have enough time. I'll make a longer one at a later date on this subject, which is very interesting.