the force (light and dark)

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by darth_kaoken, Apr 2, 2002.

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  1. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    Well, I've always maintained that Darth Sidious is a Dark Lord who leads his Apprentices down a path of fear to hate. I doubt the Dark Side has to be used in such a manner, though. Similarly, just because Jedi use the Light Side, doesn't mean it's always for the good. If that were the case, there would be no disentions within the Jedi Temple. But we know thats not the case. And so, if a Jedi can use the Light Side in a bad way then the Sith or Dark Sider could use the Dark Side for good.

    Isurus
  2. BigBossNass1138 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 5
    We're back to disagreeing, eh Isurus? 8-}

    A while back, we discussed something like this. We said this scenario: 2 children are fighting. The goal is to make them stop. How would a Jedi, using lightside methods and philosophies stop them, and conversely how would a darksider stop them using his own methods.

    The lightsider would try and talk to them, being diplomatic, discussing the problem and trying to find a middle ground. He would not pick one side over another. If he was to use the force, it would be for guidence in helping him to mediate the solution, or at the most to hold the children back from hurting each other until a peaceful solution could be reached.

    Imagine that a darksider also wants to solve the same problem. He reaches inside himself and finds his anger, because that is where his power comes from. He directs that anger at the children, angry that they are fighting him. He will command them to stop, and if they do not, he will become angry that they defied him. He will then use this anger to draw power from the Force and use it. He may hurl both children apart, hurting them, and inciting fear with a display of his anger, making sure that they will never do it again. Or he may choose a side, and help that child to defeat the other, also ending the fight.

    Does this acheive the same ends? Yes. But which method is the best way to go about it? It essentially comes down to your own beleifs as to whether or not the ends justify the means. Is it acceptable to use the destructive power of the Dark side to do something, just because it happens to be easier than doing it the other way? That is what the Dark side is about: the quick and easy path.
  3. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Oh, guys .. pals ... brothers ... not again?

    To rewind a few pages; my conclusion the last time we discussed this was as follows. The Light Side of the Force is the will and ability to use the Force for the good of others and the preservation of peace and justice. The Dark Side of the Force is the will and ability to abuse the Force for the oppression and domination of others and the gain of personal wealth and power.

    Key word - intentions. That's where the difference between Light and Dark, Jedi and Sith, lies.

    You do not use the Light for evil, and you do not use the Dark for good. Light is good intentions, and Dark is evil intentions. What comes out of it all is another matter, but that does not decide the intentions.

    Failure to do good does not mean that one is doing evil.
    The Council fails, but not because they have evil intentions. If Palpatine had failed to destroy planets and species and enslave a galaxy...well, that would not have made his intentions any better, would it?
  4. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    Oh, there's no disagreement. How does this sound then? Just because one is associated with the Jedi, like Anakin or Dooku, doesn't mean they neccessarily use the light side of the Force. They may think they are but really are twisting their beliefs to suit the need.

    But now I find something interesting. Adali, if the light side is to uphold peace and justice, then that brings me back to Qui-Gon. Justice is a very tricky thing to define. You cant impose your beliefs on another society and call it Justice. Because, you may not understand what is just in that society. Here's where Qui-Gons system is at its best. He was a Jedi who would assist or whatnot depending on the situation. He focussed on the here and now. Now, I'm not totally sure if Yoda is the same way or not. It's entirely posibble he is. Maybe there are Jedi in the order, however, who when summoned by the Senate to deal with a problem, they let their arrogance run away with themselves and resolve a problem unjustly. This may be why Jedi are not so fondly admired as they once were. I suppose this doesn't have much to do with Light or Dark as much as trying to figure out just what went wrong in the Jedi Order. I'm sure a lot of people will just point the finger at Palpy for his interference but I doubt it's that simple. Hmm...circles.

    Will post again later.

    Isurus
  5. BigBossNass1138 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 5
    Cricles within circles, indeed.

    Firstly, I partly agree with Adali on the significance of intent, but I also think methods are very important as well. There's more than one way to skin a cat, as the saying goes. You can have a goal, and intent, and use either the Dark Side or the Light Side to accomplish it. Or even if you don't use the Force, the mindset in which you approach the goal decides which side you go to. Carry out your intentions peacefully and clamly, it's the Light side. Use your agression and anger and it's the Dark.

    And again we come to Qui-Gon vs the other Jedi. Not that I'm complaining, it's a very interesting subject. As Isurus said, Qui-Gon is very much focussed on the moment. I personlly believe that Yoda is not. Yoda has always placed great significance on looking to the future for guidence, examining the "big picture" rather than simply reacting to current events. His decisions regarding Anakin's training are the perfect example. Even though there is substantial evidence that the boy is the Chosen One, Yoda looks beyond the present moment, seeing how clouded Anakin's future is.

    But that's not really what we were talking about. Yes, there is a large problem with imposing your own value systems onto others. We could discuss the difference between good and evil, but I don't think that's the point. The simple answer is that regardless of your intent, if you use the Force in anger, in hatred and in fear, you will be using the Dark Side. Now it could be argued that you could still perform actions that are "good" using this power, but that depends on the existence of one universal standard for what is right and wrong. Is there such a higher moral law? Consider this: "Together we can end this destructive conflict, and restore order to the galaxy." Darth Vader's motives sound noble. To restore peace to a galaxy ravaged by war for over 20 years. But how would he do this? He would use a combination of Dark Side powers and military might, and would rule the galaxy with an iron hand when he was done. Is such a thing right? I think that this is the problem with trying to say "the dark side can be used for good." Yes, technically it can, but it brings us right back to the old "certain point of view" argument. There is no universal truth about what is right and wrong. One man's victory is another man's defeat.

    As for the Jedi, well yes, they have become arogant. They've also become aloof, living in their temple, very separated from normal people. The populace just can't identify with them any more. They can't understand their motives, and this breeds resentment. But their motives are still what they always were. They are the "defenders of peace and justice." Again, we could poke holes in that by questioning the definition of "justice," but we'll just go around in circles again. I think that rather than questioning the Jedi's motives, we shouldquestion their methods to find out what went wrong. they weren't vigilant enough, and didn't see what was coming. But that's another topic altogether.

    Excellent to see the healthy debate returing to this thread. :)
  6. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Isurus ---

    Yes. I must agree with your latest post. Very well said. And dare I suggest that your point about Qui-Gon is very close to my previous point about intentions (although I must admit that my intentions-theory is not 100% sound ... as most other theories in that galaxy so far, far away ;) ). I would argue that if a Jedi "solves" a problem by simply imposing her or his beliefs of "justice", we are talking dark side. In any case, I don't think we're disagreeing on this. And speculating that a certain number of Jedi are doing this, is simply speculation. And not something that I feel the movies give us any sort of indications about. So, I can't argue.

    Btw, I'm not pointing the finger at Palps for what went wrong with the Jedi (and all citizens of the Republic, I guess), I'm just pointing out that the evil that this person embodied is the greatest evil the galaxy has possibly ever known. And I wish people would not underestimate the power of the Dark Side of the Force.

    Nass ---

    I've been trying to explain that I hold the rule of intentions above any moral rights or wrongs. Your intentions are your intentions. They are not moral guidelines. If you intend to help someone --- this will and effort to help is pure, and high above any morals --- EVEN if the person you are helping is Emperor Palpatine. That is my point. The rest is not YOUR fault. You did the only LIGHT thing - namely to help. The destruction that comes about is NOT your responsibility, but the responsibility of the person that INTENDS this destruction.

    Even if Darth Vader's motives sound noble ... well, does that mean that they ARE?

    As for the Jedi of the Republic ---
    I've been thinking about this for a good while, and I think I can venture to explain why I understand why they do what they do. If anyone is interested...? There is a good (and possibly new) debate coming there.

    Thank you guys, for staying interesting! :)
  7. BigBossNass1138 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 5
    It's an interesting question, isn't it? Which is more important, motive or methods? The ends or the means? I don't think there is one simple, correct answer.

    You are right about intentions, Adali, I will give you that. The point I am making is the when it comes to the use of the Force, which is what we *are* discussing here after all, intentions are only part of the story. It's your methods that define what happens to you. A force user needs to get past someone guarding a door. Does he use a mind trick to sneak past, or does he blast him with Force lighning? You could argue that the intent is different, and I will concede that you are right, but the ultimate goal is the same. Perhaps this is where the misunderstanding is coming from. I'm talking about long term goals and intentions, whereas you are talking of intent only as it applies to the moment. You either intend to use a violent or non-violent method to get past the guard. In that case, I would describe that more as your methods, but I see your meaning. The interesting thing is that this distinction is rather like the Living/Unifying Force one. Don't you think? One is looking at the long term goal, ie. to get through the door. The other is looking at the short term goal, which is to get past the guard with either violent or non-violent means. Again, we see that the Living Force perspective places the user right on the edge, right on the boundry of Dark and Light. This is the danger of concentrating only on the moment, only letting your instincts guide you. If your instincts are wrong, you run the risk of slipping off the edge. The longer, big-picture view afforded by the Unifying Force means stepping back and considering all options and possible outcomes, and choosing, rather than letting the Force control every action you make.

    And if you have an interesting theory Adali, by all means, post it! I'd love to see it. :)
  8. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Oh, I will. But I don't have time right now.

    However, I do have time to say that I agree with everything you just said. And I think you are right about me and the stuff I'm saying about intentions. I owe you thanks for making me see it more clearly. Cheers for that! :)

    I'll be back soon!
  9. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    I'm thinking more of that line "A certain point of view". You know, with Ben saying that, he's really paying homage to Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon would let the Force guide him when dealing with a situation and, in a way, seeing all points of view. Open. And I hope you all dont mind me suggesting the possibility that Qui-Gon is like Yoda. I mean, really, we know the Council, on a whole, doesn't allow Qui-Gon on, but that doesn't mean Yoda didn't vote for him to be on. It may be he was outvoted. In fact, that would make perfect sense. Yoda also didn't like the idea of Obi-Wan training the Chosen One. But, apparently, the Council out voted him there, as well.

    So, Gui-Gon and Yoda, lets say, are open to assist in a situation guided by the Force to do whats right in each situation. The Emperor, on the other hand, is all controlling. Not open to any ways except his own. He's closed unto his own will. A closed minded being. Neat.

    So, you could say that Obi-Wan sensed the elusive phantom menace while Qui-Gon didn't. But you know Qui-Gon is the more experienced Jedi. Isn't it possible that Qui-Gon, when less experienced, could sense the bigger picture as well? Maybe with experience, you learn to focus in on the moment at hand, because at some point in your training/maturing you realize each little moment adds up to the bigger picture. So, Obi-Wan says he feels something elusive, Qui-Gon recognizes what Obi-Wan is going thru, and lectures him to not let his mind drift, but to concentrate on the living moment. Now, that can be interpreted in a few ways as well. Lets say Luke envisions Cloud City. At that moment, even though the events he's thinking of are for a possible future, he acts on those thoughts as if they're for the moment. In each case, acting on the moment. The only benefit a Jedi has is the ability to view the future, to an extent, as if it's at the moment now. But, after years of leanring/maturing, maybe they come to the conclusion that the future is not something to be concerned about. The moment, now, is what should be on mind. Try and sense, at each moment, what the RIGHT thing to do is and do it. Dont try and predict what future may come if you take one action or another. Because, in doing that, you probably end up not doing the RIGHT thing at the moment. Hmmm...there's something to this, me thinks.


    Isurus
  10. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Interesting thoughts, Isurus.

    I have two points ---
    First, I'm not so sure that Qui-Gon was even interested in being on the Council. I know Obi-Wan says he'd be there if only he'd follow the code, but I don't think that this necessarily means that he has ever wanted to join the Council. Actually, my understanding of the Qui-Gon character is that he's happy wandering the galaxy and picking up all sorts of tasks and little missions here and there. As I think Isurus has said before, Qui-Gon doesn't seem to be a man that would be happy with a position on the Council.
    Secondly, I think Luke was wrong in following his immediate instinct and going to Bespin. As it turned out, his friends were quite capable of taking care of themselves, and Luke ended up being the one that had to be saved. In addition, he wasn't at all ready to confront Vader. I don't blame Luke, but I think Yoda was right in trying to stop him from leaving at that point. Nothing benefited from that premature confrontation with the Dark Side, but Luke was in clear and present danger of being taken by the dark powers. Well, I'm sure Luke learned a few lessons, though. ;)
  11. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Adali Kiri

    >>>The Light Side of the Force is the will and ability to use the Force for the good of others and the preservation of peace and justice. The Dark Side of the Force is the will and ability to abuse the Force for the oppression and domination of others and the gain of personal wealth and power.

    Well, my own interpretation of the whole light side/dark side is that there is no such thing as the ?light side.? There is just the Force.

    Think about it- is it a coincidence that the only time that the ?good side? is ever mentioned in the films is by Luke in ESB? (Just before Yoda ends his lesson.)

    I think the Jedi philosophy towards the Force is that they listen to and follow the Will of the Force, and use their powers over the Force to exercise it?s will. They treat it as a powerful ally, to be worked with. ?Feel the Force flowing through you?

    If the Force is an energy field generated by every living thing, then it follows that the Will of the Force is a combination of the wills of every living thing. The living Force of every creature combines to form a single Unifying Force. Therefore, it?s not intrinsically right or wrong- it just is. With nothing (such as a God) outside it to judge it right or wrong, the labels simply don?t have any meaning. (Incidentally, I find it really interesting that the Force seems to be analagous to God in many ways, except that life creates the Force- in all religions that I know of, God creates Life.)

    However, to use the Force for anything other than to follow or exercise the Will of the Force is (I think) to tap into the Dark Side. Using the Force, not as an ally to be worked with, but as a tool or a slave, taking from it what you want and ignoring the conseuences, and tapping into a power too vast for an individual to handle. (A bit like LOTR in many ways?)


    LordIsirus

    >>>Similarly, just because Jedi use the Light Side, doesn't mean it's always for the good. If that were the case, there would be no disentions within the Jedi Temple. But we know thats not the case. And so, if a Jedi can use the Light Side in a bad way then the Sith or Dark Sider could use the Dark Side for good.

    I think the root of the dissention is the living/unifying Force distinction. The Jedi Council have a ?wider? focus, as the entire galaxy is their responsibility- not just the ?here and now.? Qui Gon (for example) is entirely focussed on the living Force- the ?here and now?, meaning he can miss the possible consequences of his actions. As we see, he is so focussed on getting Anakin trained as a Jedi, simply because he has such potential, that he fails to see the possible consequences of his training, especially at a time when the Sith are re-emerging.

    I think the idea of trying to use the dark side for good is what?s being set up for Episode III though. I think that Dooku is telling the truth to Obi Wan- that he left the Jedi because of the corruption in the Senate (who the Jedi ultimately serve.) Combine this with the character?s connection to Qui Gon, who lies, cheats and steals in TPM, but all with noble, honourable intentions? Could it be that Dooku is going to turn out to be a character who is trying to use the forbidden power of the Dark Side to bring down the Sith?

    If you compare that to Anakin?s fate (from the OT), it starts to look pretty interesting. It seems that Dooku is trying to do what Anakin eventually goes on to do- join the Sith and destroy them from within. Maybe Dooku knows something about the ?chosen one? prophecy, and decides he?s going to be the one to fulfil it?
  12. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    SomeRandomNerd ---

    Thank you for chiming in! :)
    But I think you got me partially wrong. My point was very close to yours, namely that there is no good or bad side to the Force. You state, as I have done several times in this thread, that the Force is simply the Force. And my thinking is (again similiar to your own) that the good or evil workings of the Force is decided by the one who uses it. My take is that it depends on intentions; to use the Force for the good of others and the protection of the weak and innocent - that is the Light. But the abuse of the Force to gain personal wealth and power and to oppress others - that is the Dark. I do see that your take differs from this a bit, but I don't think we are so much at odds as your posts assumes.
  13. BigBossNass1138 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 5
    My take on it is this:

    The Force, in its natural state, simply is. It is pure, and clean. It has no dark, or light sides, as these are meerly abstractions forced onto it by people. But that does not mean that they are any less real. Again, it's all certain points of view.

    When a person uses the Force, draws on it to acheive some purpose, it becomes tainted. The energy is no longer pure. It is how one draws that energy that decides in what way it changes. Drawing on it peacefully, with calmness and clarity, it causes it to manifest as what we call the light side. But it is still tainted, no longer in it's pure form. When it is drawn on in anger, used aggresively, those emotions taint it as well. It manifests what is known as the Dark Side.

    So both sides of the argument are right, from a certain point of view. The Force is pure and singular. The dark side/light side division comes from within ourselves. Through use of the Force, that division is manifested, and the nature of the Force itself is changed. The Force reflects nature. As soon as sentient beings became sophisticated enough to imagine the concept of evil, and conversly the concept of good, these things were reflected in the nature of the Force.

    I don't know quite how well that was explained. But I think that is the best solution to this particular debate. :)
    MTFBWY
  14. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    Yes, a good post, SRN! And as you say, and most are seeing, the Force doesn't have sides to it. We just use the terms Light and Dark to describe how it is being utilized. I like to think of it similar to wind. Wind is wind. But there are times when the air is smooth or barely moving at all and there are times when their is tornados and hurricanes. Its just wind, though.

    With wind, it takes little to generate calmness or storms. They say if a butterfly flaps its wings at the right moment, a tornado can be created somewhere. Sure, that sounds hard to believe but the point is it doesn't take much to disrupt or balance the wind. But where to place that butterfly and when to make it flap its wings is the more tricky part. The Force, obviously, can be used. And the Force, like the wind, just is. But, as I said before, the Force is "with them", meaning Darth Sidious and Darth Tyrnaus, by the end of AotC. And by ANH, the Force is with Obi-Wan, a Jedi. So,like a sprinter who recently broke the World record, the wind was behind him. Assisting his run. Not in his face, against him. I believe the Force can exist such a manner, as well. But, to extend that, you have to realize that just because there's a Hurricane off the coast of Florida, it doesn't mean there is a storm, or even a breeze, in Kentucky. So, maybe the Force is with the Dark Lords whre they need it to be, but that doesn't mean the Force is with them everywhere.

    I think the root of the dissention is the living/unifying Force distinction. The Jedi Council have a ?wider? focus, as the entire galaxy is their responsibility- not just the ?here and now.?
    SomeRandomNerd


    Now, what we discuss here isn't neccessarily how things are in the SW realm but I'm pretty sure a lot of people can see that the Council really isn't the best it can be. When Yoda says that even older, wiser Jedi are becoming arrogant and overconfident, he never says he doesn't suspect or feel members of the high Council are free of that. Maybe their ability to see the "wider" focus is exactly what is their failing. They see the bigger picture, and try and guide "here and now" events to either change the bigger picture or make it run smoother. But, in doing that, they may miss what the Force is guiding them to do, at that particular moment. Now, you've heard me talk of the big balance before. Maybe each time a Jedi senses the bigger picture and acts on that, instead of the "Here and now", he ultimately makes a decision to not do the bidding of the Force, which adds a small granual to which makes the scale a bit unbalanced. Do that enough times and that scale will tip!

    And as to Darth Tyranus and Vader trying to bring down the Sith from the inside, I feel that way too. Count Dooku is noble. A man who'd lead a Kingdom. He would not be wanting to do that for ill will. I'll go one step further, though, and say that I doubt Anakin or Dooku can see that Sidious is using them. Anakin only realizes at the end what Sidious is doing. I think Dooku and Anakin are willingly helping Sidious thinking he has noble intentions to bring order to the Galaxy. But, Sidious is spellbinding them and deceiving them. Anakin and Dooku, for all they know, could be doing things for "good".

    Isurus
  15. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    I agree with a lot in these last few posts. But Isurus; I think you once again are only blaming the Jedi for their unability to act correctly (an unability I completely agree that is there, btw), and that you don't give enough credit to the Sith. Palpatine/Sidious has been in their midst for several years, and Yoda often states that he is not able to see things clearly --- "Clouded this boy's future is", "Impossible to see, the future is", "The shroud of the Dark Side has fallen", etc. And in AOTC Yoda and Windu are heard admitting that they are out of touch because of the darkness that is growing around them. My point is that - yes, the Jedi have grown too complacent and arrogant, but at the same time - one of the greatest dark minds ever to plague the galaxy is right there among them! Palpatine is an incredible evil genius. It's not simply the Jedi not doing their job, I think.

    Mmmmm, if you referred to my take on intentions etc in that last paragraph, I don't think you're getting me quite right. Slaughtering people because you believe it will bring some kind of order to the system does not equal good intentions in my book. I don't dispute that good intentions can be turned to wrong, but I do think that saying Vader may personally believe that he is doing good by wiping out the Jedi, killing millions of people, destroying planets, killing collegues at will, etc ... mmmm, is somewhat distorted.

    By all means, I agree that Dooku is probably in it for the best of reasons - he is disillusioned with the corrupt and inefficient Republic, and the complacent Jedi Order, and he wants to change these things. That's all fine and very good intentions. However, the moment he tries to kill Yoda, Kenobi and Anakin (just one of many examples), those are NOT good intentions. Means and ends and all that, I know. But wanting a better galaxy is one thing. Murdering someone to reach that goal is something else completely, and most likely irreversibly distorts the good that once was at the heart of the Count's intentions.

    As Gandalf says - "I would use the Ring out of a wish to do good, but through me it would weild a power too terrible to imagine...". His intentions would seize to exist if he allowed that power to work through him. As it is with the power of the Force. Anger, fear and agression can not be governed by good intentions.

    I don't know if I am making any kind of sense to anyone, so I'll shut it off now.
  16. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    What's the difference between Dooku killing a Jedi* and Obi Wan killing a Sith?

    Anything other than a "certain point of view"?



    *= Even though, technically, he didn't, but for the sake of argument let's pretend that he did...
  17. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    Thanks for that point of view, SRN!

    Here's a bit more Obi-Wan bashing...for fun :)

    I suppose Obi-Wan killed Maul in "defense" and possibly he could rationalize it by saying "Maul killed Qui-Gon first!" but, really, those are just ways to cover up the fact that he did what Maul did. Killed to complete a job. Obi-Wan may have noble intentions, at times, but I really see fault in what he does. It's his failings as Anakins Master which really allow Anakin to want another way. Obi-Wan has fibbed before and I'm now wondering if he will again, in Epi 3. It wouldn't surprise me if he's the one who lies to Anakin, or something, about his children. "Anakin, you dont have children...well, from a certain point of view, at least".
    Anakin is the honest one in that relationship. Sure, you can say he's been lead down the wrong path, but the seduction, or what we call "conditioning", was so well done, that his actions were honest. He, as I suspect, truly believes a dictatorship is what the galaxy needs. For his eyes can only see the confused state it's in now. A good Master would have known his pupils beliefs and either shown him another way, if the beliefs are wrong. Obi-Wan can barely recognize Anakin is headed down the wrong path, anyways. He admits that Anakin is "arrogant" but he fails to do anything about it. Anakin is 'allowed' to walk that path alone.
    A solution? The Jedi training system should not be so concrete. Obi-Wan should have realized, early on, that Anakin would have been too much for him, barely a Jedi Knight to begin with, to handle. In fact, the Council should have thought this. At first, sure, they could have let Obi-Wan guide him, but once Anakin started becoming arrogant, or whatnot, Anakin should have been introduced to a new Master. Someone who could tame him or guide him from the path which Palpatine/Sidious is leading him. I think at this point, Anakin sees Obi-Wans goof-ups more than his triumphs. At times, disrespecting his Master. And rightfully so! For when he does that, he is honestly indicating to Obi-Wan that the is requiring a stronger Master. Someone who would care enough to inform him that his arrogance is not good. Someone who will stand up to him.
    I'd say the Council should have a say in all that but I wouldn't be surprised if they never knew of Anakin becoming arrogant, even, until Obi-Wan told Yoda and Mace in AotC. Maybe, till that point, when Yoda or Mace would ask about Anakins progress, Obi-Wan would just tilt his head and say "he's doing fine, and completely under my tutaledge...from a certain point of view".

    Isurus
  18. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    Just a small thought about the Living Force Vs. the Cosmic(Unifying) Force.

    Since the Jedi use the Cosmic Force to search for destiny and fate, people automatically assume that it's counterpart, the Living Force must act in the opposite way. Moving from moment to moment without regard for your future actions, but I don't believe that for a second.

    The Jedi who are of the Cosmic Force live at moment (A) and constantly look towards moment (Z) and then find/follow a path in hopes that it shall become. The Jedi who are of the Living Force live at moment (A) and then to moment (B), then (C), (D), (E), all the way up to moment (Z). That being when a particular Fate/Destiny is fulfilled. They allow the Force to guide them then find/follow a path in hopes that it shall become. Just like the Cosmic Jedi do.

    The difference is that while the Cosmic Force Jedi look to where a particular path might end and then decide to follow it, the Living Force Jedi just allows the Force to guide them through the steps instead of looking ahead.

    Sure they may not know the end result, but relatively the same path is laid. The same experiances might be done as well. It's not that Living Force Jedi have no regard for their actions. They just rely on the Force to put them on the right path. So long as you listen to the Will of the Force, it shall be so. It's all a matter of trust.

    Ciou-See the Sig
  19. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>The difference is that while the Cosmic Force Jedi look to where a particular path might end and then decide to follow it, the Living Force Jedi just allows the Force to guide them through the steps instead of looking ahead.

    I agree, and I think this might be the downfall of the "living Force" focus- in an ideal, pre-TPM galaxy, the two ways of following the Force would probably work out as the same thing.

    However, when you've got Darth Sidious, the master manipulator on the scene, with the power to manipulate the Force and no moral qualms about doing it for his own ends, then somewhere between point A and Z, they could be sent off on a different route.

    Remember what Mace Windu says in AOTC about Anakin bringing balance ("if he chooses to follow his destiny" or something?)
  20. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    Indeed, which can still confuse me at times, I mean...you have a destiny-which is something that is meant to happen, but you get a choice on whether you follow it?

    How exactly can that work? Doesn't sound like destiny to me, by definition. More like, the Force shows you would it would like you to accomplish, but you may not know how to go about or decide to ignore...still doesn't sound like destiny, only choice...nothing else.

    Ciou-See the Sig
  21. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Guys, I'm honestly disturbed by the way we are pinning Anakin's evil on Obi-Wan, like the way Sidious' incredible evil has been ignored here earlier, and the rise of the Dark Side blamed on the Jedi. None of this is incorrect as such, Obi-Wan also blames himself for what happened to Anakin. But why do we keep ignoring the Sith, the Dark Side, and what these guys are really doing and why, and so on? I've asked this a few times, but we seem to be stuck with going after Obi-Wan or the Jedi Council.

    I don't disagree entirely with any of the last few posts, but I sense a loss of focus...
  22. Darth Kruel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2000
    star 4
    The Sith namely Darth Sidious is getting his revenge on the Jedi for what they did to the Sith aeons ago. Thus bringing the Sith back after a thousand years of hiding and building a great and glorious Empire to take control of the galaxy is what Sidious had in mind probably before he even got into politics. Then cooking up a grand scheme to not only take control of the galaxy, but causing the elimination of the Jedi, and taking their chosen one from them as a slap in the face.

    Palpatine is a sick man. He hates the Jedi and is wants the Sith to reign supreme.
  23. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    I dont find fault, at all, in pointing out shortcomings with the Jedi Council. But there's reason for that. You see, though we dont know the "why's" about Sidious wants, we can clearly see his actions. He manipulates and desires control to infinitum. His intentions are on the floor for us to see. Even though Anakin and others may not see it, since they're in that realm. But, what is elusive and slightly more difficult to see is the Jedis faults. So, here is just a good a place, as any, to display what may be going on. But, I suppose it cant be bad to try and fit Grand Master Palpatine into the picture.

    I mentioned something, before, about the Living Force and the Unifying Force. Something to the effect that a more experienced and matured Jedi, such as Qui-Gon, see that the Living Force is what should be concentrated on. Is it not possible that what may develop is a clear distinction between the two, which leads to both organizations beliefs? As I said, we dont know Yoda's beliefs, so as I'm saying this, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to Yoda that he, like Qui-Con, pratices methods of the Living Force. To me, the Living Force represents a natural action at each and every moment at any place in the Universe. And I believe what these matured Jedi realize is that if you let things flow, somehow 'by the Force' encouraging things to flow free and true, and where there is unbalance try and reset that balance at each little instance, you end up with a greater balance. Now, sure, Jedi see a bit into the future,as Qui-Gon said Anakin can do. Hmm..now I'm thinkin on a tangent. Does anyone know if Qui-Gon had that same ability? Or if he did, was it when he was less matured? I recall Qui-Gon saying Anakin had that "Jedi trick", but now that I think about it, I dont recall Qui-Gon "seeing" the future. Or, if he could, at least he didn't act on it.
    So, now I ask again. Could the Unifying Force and the Living Force be the crux of the matter? Lets look at the extremes. The Living Force is as I said, I think. And that those who use it believe that balancing each little unbalanced situation means the greater summation, eventually, will be balanced.So, the extreme is that at every finite point and time in the Universe, there's 2 options. To be balanced at that point and time or not to be balanced. If a 'Living Force' Jedi can see/sense that unbalance, he'd bring balance to that exact situation. Thats how Qui-Gon and possibly, probably, Yoda is.

    The Unifying Force, as has been said, seems to be using the Force with a greater goal in mind. The end justifies the means. The extreme would be to not worry or care about the present moment, but to do whatever one wants to obtain a further goal. A Jedi, such as Obi-Wan, possibly, would see 2 kids fighting and to end the fight, he'd use the Force or persuade them not to fight. Or, similarly, Darth Maul would see the 2 kids fighting and he'd assist the stronger of the 2 kids and the fight would end. Or, he'd just Force-lightning them to death. Obi-Wans method and Mauls method would come to the same end. The fight would be finished. Funny how a Sith Lord and a Jedi would end up with the same end. So, now, I extend the Unifying Force one step further. Palpatine has a goal in mind. He wants to control everything. He's not concerned with how he obtains this goal. He'd probably be fine with destroying everything in the Universe to get that goal. Believe it or not, that is the extreme of the Unifying Force. A means to an end. Anakin has the ability to see the future, when he's young, as well. Qui-Gon passes it off as a "Jedi trick". And sure, maybe all Jedi possess the ability to see the future, but whether or not to use it or to act on it is what is in question.

    The way I see it is if you have a goal and you dont care how you obtain it, the steps taken to achieve that goal may be destructive or create unbalance along the way. And so, you may also become controlling after learning you can effect the future. A Jedi may become arrogant if they persue such control.

    There'll be more to this.
  24. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
  25. BigBossNass1138 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 5
    I'm back!

    Hmmm, I'm not sure I exactly agree with you there, Isurus. Firstly, Anakin's "Jedi Trait" of seeing things before they happen, is the explanation of his quick reflexes. This is not just manifested in racing pods. Jedi can deflect blaster bolts with their lightsabres, putting an almost microscopically thin blade in just the right place to stop a bolt that, even if it isn't moving at the speed of light, is still moving damn fast. They see where the bolt is before it gets there, and put the blade in just the right spot. So, in fact, every Jedi we have seen is able to do this, even the little younglings.

    I do agree with you on the rest of your post though. As I've said before, it's all about "certain points of view." Qui-Gon taught this to Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan remembered it. I think you were perhaps to harsh on Kenobi before, Isurus. I agree that he didn't have what it took to keep Anakin under control. Obi-Wan never liked the boy from the start, never believed in him. He was jealous because his own master, Qui-Gon, pretty much blew him off to take on Anakin. You only have to look at Obi-Wan's face in that scene in TPM to see that. The only reason he took Anakin as apprentice in the first place was because it was Qui-Gon's dying wish. Now obviously they formed a friendship over time, but it seems to me that the bad start their relationship got off to would have been an issue. When we first see them in AOTC, it all seems hunky-dory, with reminiscing and little jokes, but barely 5 minutes later we see Anakin showing open disrespect. Obi-Wan is trying to do what he's been told to do, and Anakin is trying to run off like a loose cannon to impress Padme. Who is at fault? Who is right and wrong in this situation? Well, I hate to say it, but it's all certain points of view again. Obi-Wan should be more firm with Anakin perhaps, or perhaps he should recognise that he can't handle him. But Anakin should stop acting like a brat and listen to the person who's training him, and who is much wiser and more sensible than he is. Maybe the council should have stepped in on this, but I get the feeling that they are somewhat intimidated by who and what Anakin is. They aren't sure they should mess with the Chosen One. Maybe they feel they should just let the will of the Force take over, and let things run their course. It's an ugly situation.

    And I think people are far to hard on Obi-Wan for lying to Luke, as well. What would you have had him do? Luke was their last hope. They needed him to destroy the Sith. (They thought that he would be the one to do it, when really it was Anakin.) They couldn't run the risk that he would back down. In hindsight, perhaps it was not the best course of action, but times were desparate. Obi-Wan needed to persuade Luke to come with him to Alderaan, so that he could then get him to Dagobah. When his training was complete, he would learn the truth, would understand and accept it. Obi-Wan had to tell a little white lie to stop Luke from asking difficult questions. Again, it's a messy situation, with no clear-cut right/wrong answers.

    I've gotten slightly sidetracked here, but as I said, Isurus, I agree with the second half of your post, that things like motives and justification can make anything possible. There are no universal right and wrong answers.
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