the force (light and dark)

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by darth_kaoken, Apr 2, 2002.

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  1. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    Being that everyone, I'm assuming, agrees that the Unifying Force is something which can allow for negative activities and the Living Force allows for an ultimately balanced system we can extend that to say the Dark Siders, like any of the Darths, deal mainly with the Unifying Force. Anakin is known, even in early years, prior to any Jedi training, to be able to see the future and act upon it. The crux now falls to why the Jedi, or anyone in that society, would feel the Unifying Force had any merit in the first place. At some point, I'd imagine some Jedi said "well, if we look to the future, it would dictate we should do this...." or something to that effect. Maybe the initial looking to the future is what the downfall was.

    I will also assume that everyone sees that the Jedi Council is quite unbalanced and along with it, the Republic. Now, we realize that Palpatine has a solution to this but we also know that it is the wrong solution. But, who else came up with a proposal for a solution? If noone then the only method to take would be Palpatines, no matter how wrong that decision was. Obviously that society should not have been left with only one, especially that, option. We'll see.

    Isurus
  2. BigBossNass1138 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 5
    You question why the society would allow that path to be chosen, Isurus. I think that it is bacause of that society that it has gone that way.

    Think: when the Jedi first started, they were essentially warrior monks. As you surmise, the Living Force philosophy of living in the moment and letting the Force guide your imediate actions, rather than letting your own thoughts and expectations guide you, seems like the logical way to go. The Jedi were most likely wanderers, going where the Force took them. The order was probably not as rigid as we see it at the time of TPM/AOTC. But as the Jedi became a bigger and bigger part of the Republic and how it is structured, we see the Jedi Council appear. A governing body who exists to keep the thousands of Jedi scattered accross the galaxy in check. Such a group could not afford to live in the moment. They had to make decisions that could affect billions. They had to look ahead, try to predict what effects their actions would have. So would have begun the idea of the Unifying Force. A different perspective and philosophy of using the Force, that does not reside purely in the moment. Where the Force is perhaps more of a tool than a guiding Force. Where the user takes a step back from the action and thinks about their actions, instead of blindly trusting to the will of the Force. Many Jedi took on this philosophy, but not all. We don't know what percentages there are. Perhaps it's 50/50, or perhaps the Unifying Force perspective outnumbers the other.

    Also, I don't agree that the Dark Side is purely in the Unifying Force, Isurus. We've already established that the use of the Living Force puts you right on the edge, the crux. You trust to the Force, not to your own knowledge. If you draw on the Force in anger, not stopping to think, you will be using the Dark Side, perhaps without even realising. Yes, the Unifying Force offers the possiblility of vast, pre-meditated acts of evil such as Palpatine's, but also spur of the moment losses of control, like Anakin's masacre of the Tuskens. Wherever there is anger and hatred, there is the Dark Side. I don't think we can draw a boundry such as the one you have proposed.
  3. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    Usually a system falls apart when the level of intolerance grows. Things come down to nitty gritty and divisions are formed. In the Jedi Council, we can see 2 systems and maybe, as I suggest, those systems are picked apart. What I see is that the Emperor is always looking to the future. His mind souly on the goal of controlling the entire galaxy. At the same time, his mind was on what he was doing. But always with that ultimate goal in mind. It didn't concern him if worlds were lost. If he was concerned about the Living Force, he would have <<although we dont know he didn't react to the planets demise, he probably didn't even wince>> weakened or whatnot when a planet was destroyed. <<But, now that I think of it, maybe the toll was taken out on his facial features.>>
    Anyways, those things were not of concern to him. So, maybe , you could say he wasn't concern with the harm he caused the Galaxy and unto himself to obtain that goal. But a Jedi who concentrates on the Living Force, mainly, can see that balancing all small instances results in a balanced system over all. And, I dont need to remind you of the outcome, but ultimately the Emperors vision obviously became flawed and he didn't see his demise coming.
    But really, in any society, when the going gets rough, small distinctions, such as Living Force and Unifying Force become more important. And when things go wrong, one will be blamed and whatnot. Is it not possible that this is what caused the previous separation in the Jedi Council and are we seeing it again in the prequals?

    Isurus

    p.s. nice Sith Graphics :)
  4. BigBossNass1138 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 5
    Yes, I think that the Living/Unifying Force debate may be one source of the contention in the Jedi ranks. I don't think its the only one. The perceived recklessness of some Jedi, the debates over action vs inaction, the clouding of the Force by the Dark side and of course, the fate of the Chosen One are all things that are tearing the Jedi apart. Not to mention failing public opinion and the presure they will be under regarding the Clone Wars. Its a dire time for the Jedi, and it gets far worse.
  5. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    I bought the Episode II DVD and I'm watching it now with the commentary running. If any of you have it, I suggest paying close attention to what George is saying beginning at the scene where Anakin is telling Padme about slaughtering the Tusken Raiders. George talks about Anakins desire to be the most powerful Jedi ever and such. Then, while their all outside for the funeral of Shmi, George says, in regards to Anakin, "we're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi....the only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark Side because the Dark Side is more powerful...if you want the ultimate power, you really have to go to the stronger side which is the dark side, but ultimately it'd be your undoing, but it's that..that need for power...the need for power to satisify your dreams to keep things..to not let go of things..to allow the natural course of life to go along..which is that things come and go.. and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever...frozen in time."

    He mentions, also, how we see Anakin slipping to the Dark Side and knowing Dooku was once a Jedi, learning that Jedi can be brought over to the dark side.

    I know we've been through the whole Light or Dark side and whats more powerful but it was very interesting to hear George saying, quite frankly, how the Dark side is the more powerful side. He then says it'll ultimately be your/his undoing. Now I'm wondering if i should change the scale in which I find balance in all this. Initially I'd say there is the Light Side and the Dark Side and then there's a balance point somewhere between the two. But maybe its possible, for example, to see it as line starting on the left. You then progressively move to the right along that line as you start to use the Force and become Jedi. Then, instead of moving back, the line continues till a very crucial point. A point where if you cross it you will, in comparison to a Jedi or where you were before, become significantly more powerful. But also beyond that point, it takes an incredible amount of self control not to missuse that new stronger power. I know Yoda dabbles into the Dark Side during the time of Episode II, but he is probably the most powerful Jedi around, if not ever, and he is able not be sucked down the path unstably.

    I think that fine line must be very crucial and its clear Anakin crossed that line. Not only that, he's upset he did so in slaughtering those Tuskens. And Lucas says it's those who want that power who cross that line. Those who wish or want things to remain frozen..not letting life flow freely. I thinks thats a very deep thing to say. Not letting life flow, trying to keep it frozen, in fact, is going against the flow. Going against the Force.

    Anyways...I'm off to finish watching the movie :)

    Isurus
  6. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    It seems this topic is popping up in other threads so I thought I'd up this one.

    I have realizes how this system is balanced and the main players seem to be Anakin, Qui-Gon, Yoda and the Emperor.

    Still, whats of concern is what caused imbalance. What lead that wonderful society down? Hard to pinpoint and it may be various things at once.


    Isurus the White
  7. __clairvoyant__ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 10, 2003
    For the Chaos Theory; I would say that love is the greatest power above all; however I have seen this type of understanding a couple of times; once in Stephen King's 'IT' also.
    The Living Force works for the Unifying Force in a way, shaping the future in a ligh/dark path.Living Force is spontaneous; so evil or good can alter the unifying force which is a lot bigger by scale, that might be why it is hard to master by the force-users.The fact that Yoda had the best ability (apart from Palpatine) to predict the future (after 800 years the mind must become so clear!) might be of his influence over his apprentices.A master might alter the path of the unifying force by making his apprentices do the necessary evil/ good effects on the living force.By this; we can say that Yoda is victorious but it would contradict the fact that the force itself considers the dark side as an imbalance; or the bad qualities of the Jedi.
    That is where Anakin comes in; to use the living force to its fullest extent for the path of the unifying force; ending in a good way.

    Waiting for your ideas...
  8. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    I think there's a problem with the assumptions there because from what we've seen, Palpatine can't predict the future very well at all. He completely misunderstands whatever he saw of the outcome of his confrontation with Luke, for example. I'm also pretty certain Palpy's lying when he claims he knew Luke would voluntarily come to Endor. He's a little too quick and snippy in his reply to Vader's "My son is with them." He also flat-out contradicts himself when he first says he doubts Luke is on Endor then claims he has already foreseen that Luke will come to Vader on Endor.

    My feeling has always been that light-siders are more capable of using the subtle aspects of the Force, such as the seeing the future, than dark-siders are. The dark side relies on power; the people who use it are generally people who failed to become Jedi because their lust for power was too great, and we see all throughout the films how wantonly dark-siders use the Force to do everything for them. Look at Maul using a severed droid head to open a door and Vader casually throwing pipes at Luke.

    The light side, on the other hand, obviously relies on something else. Yoda's winded both after the duel with Dooku and after lifting the X-wing out of the swamp. I think that something is finesse and fine control over various aspects of the Force - the ability to see the future, for one. Since dark-siders have powers that are uniquely theirs, such as Force choke, it's not that strange to think light-siders may have some as well.
  9. __clairvoyant__ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 10, 2003
    Dark lady,

    There is one point which I agree totally;

    The ones who use the light side are patient and in control of their emotions.By this way, as you say, they use their powers for a greater cause, rather than an advantage in the moment.
    However, I have to disagree with you on Palpatine's ability to foresee the future, if you look at the whole picture, (beginning from PT) despite some mistakes, I think he did a superb job.
    Impatience causes defeat for the force-user; especially for the Sith.The character I think makes the light/dark different, as you will remember in ROTJ, Luke kind of force-choked the guards at Jabba's Place.Imagine what Yoda would do if he became a Sith.(A bad example this is)
    If palpatine should have been impatient like Maul maybe, he would have lost and revealed his identity to the Jedi instantly.Its a flexible subject anyway

    Take care
  10. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    clairvoyant, I agree about the Living Force and Unifying Force. The topic questions light and dark but really I've realized it's not the issue at all. The issue is the Living Force and the Unifying Force. Either one can be used incorrectly, though. The only way the Living Force can be used incorrectly is by directly ignoring it. But if one were to follow the Living Force, a balance would always be maintained. The Unifying Force, however, is what seems to be toyed with most. Possible futures are presented and with that knowledge steps can be taken to adhere to or change that future. And to change the future or what is seen using the Unifying Force, basically one needs to pick and choose when they follow or ignore the Living Force, each choice changing the possible future. <<well, technically not, but maybe lead to believe the future can be changed ;) >>

    I agree with you, Dark Lady Mara, that Palps is in less control than he lets on though. Even if you read some PT books, well Cloak of Deception anyways, you learn that Sidious is trying to manipulate things but really, his results are vague. Maybe when he says everything is proceeding as planned, he's not meaning he can see the exact detail of what happens. Maybe, as Yoda can, he can only see shadows or vague images of what is to come. Oddly enough, now that I think of it, we never really see and may not see till Epi6 the Emperor use the Force. He makes arrangements and whatnot playing off peoples fears and worries but it doesn't require the Force to do that...however, that doesn't mean you should underestimate his possible capabilities or Ian McDiarmid's, for that matter....wrong thread, I know...

    As to light and dark siders...Sith and Jedi, I have come across one of the faults leading to the Jedi Temples' failings. I'll add that soon.

    May the Force be with you!

    Isurus the White
  11. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    An interesting observation for you guys. Do you think it's significant that all the Jedi who are presented as being most powerful in the prequels are also the ones who dabble most in the dark side, as in the case of Mace Windu's unusually aggressive Form VII fighting style and Yoda's meditating on the dark side to discover the origins of the clone army?
  12. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    I think Palpatine's ability to "forsee" the future is more down to his skill in manipulating events, personally.

    >>>The only way the Living Force can be used incorrectly is by directly ignoring it. But if one were to follow the Living Force, a balance would always be maintained. The Unifying Force, however, is what seems to be toyed with most.

    I would have said all of that the other way around. I mean, the Living Force is all about the "here and now", which is the only place you can ever have any effect on anything. And what Lucas has said is the aspect of the Force that is involved in telekensis, mind tricks etc- using the Force. The Unifying Force is the bigger picture, the past, the future etc.

    Weird.

    >>>Do you think it's significant that all the Jedi who are presented as being most powerful in the prequels are also the ones who dabble most in the dark side, as in the case of Mace Windu's unusually aggressive Form VII fighting style and Yoda's meditating on the dark side to discover the origins of the clone army?

    I think it's significant that the films never mention Yoda meditating on the Dark Side or Mace's form of lightsaber technique!
  13. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    Yes, what I meant in saying 'toying' with the Unifying Force I mean that when tapping into the Unifying Force a Jedi would be seeing the future as it stands. Then, they act on the Living Force, abiding by it or not, and then using the Unifying Force to see what their actions lead to. So, to toy with the Unifying Force, a Jedi/Sith would experiment with how they handle the instinct or reaction they get from the Living Force. Mostly anything to do with science is the same process. Remember when the first monkey nudged a rock at the top of a hill and it went down the hill? Then that monkey, after a year or so, did it again. Then the monkey did it again and knew that pushing the rock at the top of the cliff would result in the rock rolling down the hill. That monkey is dabbling with that rocks future even though it's changing the here and now of the rock to do so.

    Experimenting with the Force must be similar. Have no fear, though, if what I have posted before is a bit unclear I'm sure the next few postings will seem utterly crazy. :)

    Isurus

    p.s. thanks though, because at this moment, I'm trying to decide which came first..knowledge of the Unifying Force or knowledge of the Living Force. Egg or chicken, sorta, but from writing about that monkey, I think I've made a choice.

    p.s.s. and Dark Lady Mara, it's not surprising to me to see these self professed Jedi so close to what is considered Sithly or agressive behaviour. The Jedi are not as in unison with the Force as they believe they are.
  14. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    The fact that Yoda is delving into the dark side and Mace is fighting with a more agressive style is very important in further describing the events occuring during the PT. As well as that, more Jedi in general are becoming more confident and arrogant. This plays so well into everything. These small details seem to enforce the feeling that there is something wrong within the Temple. And I seem to recall in the TPM novel that shortly over 1000 years before TPM, there was a group of Jedi who separated from the Temple and sought out the Sith teachings because a)they felt Force users were not respected or looked up to enough and b) they knew being confined to the Temples teachings would be wasteful. The Sith group fought against the Jedi, feeling their way was best, but also they ended up fighting amongst themselves. I imagine at some point, the Sith realized the Jedi were no match for them and they decided to battle each other to become the overlord. Anyways, the Sith were believed to be extinct shortly after and the Temple continued on as before.

    That is one of the faults within the Temple. Like a lot of people want to believe and obviously what the Jedi failed to recognize is that that group of Jedi would never have sought Sith teachings if everything in the Temple was, indeed, one with the Force. So, it's no surprise to me to see those same events, at the time of the PT, being echoed. The Temples teachings/structure must indeed have a fault. And we realize that, since the Jedi are virtually extinct by ANH, the fault leads to the extermination of the Jedi ways as they stand. <<I have a thought that a number of Jedi, not just Anakin or maybe Anakin is their leader, break away from the Temple just like 1000 years prior and they wipe each other out..anyways...>> So the first fault is that those within the Temple, after those events before, fail to recognize there is a problem. They ignore it.

    Are there other faults? As I said, I'm sure there are a number of them but I think I have figured another one of them out. I think that the Jedi teachings came up through a great deal of philosophy but seeing there are Sith teachings at all suggest that they, too, came through in a similar fashion. And I also think that each system, Sith and Jedi, is trying to achieve oneness or complete balance with the Force. Neither of them for ill will. But they are two distinct schools of thought. But, as we know from the way the Jedi we've seen talk and indicate, the Sith ways are shunned, looked down upon, ignored and most importantly of all....feared.
    Yoda says that Fear leads to Anger...and so forth. Jedi are taught to confront their fears and deal with them at the initial stages. Luke, for example, went into the cave under the tree. Sure he failed by taking a weapon, but he did face the fear of going into that unknown place. Yoda oversees this training. Yet in the PT movies we've seen so far, Yoda seems to only train younglings to a certain point. I dont believe, at that point, he oversaw the completion of the Jedi, leaving it up to that padawans Master to conduct their training. But, even if Yoda did, I think he misses a key point in the training and I think this is a main fault within the Temple. You see, the Jedi in the Temple are told to confront their fears and trust in the Force. They do so. So what could be wrong? Well, there is one fear that the Jedi do not encourage them to face. And it's a fear that Yoda and the others instill deeply into each Jedi. He says, time and time again, that once you take a step towards the Dark Side, forever will it consume your destiny and things like that. No Jedi ever willingly takes a step towards the dark side because of that. And I say willingly because those Jedi who are arrogant, now, and even Yoda and Mace's dabblings, are stepping unknowingly and unwillingly towards the dark side. But with Yoda, at least, he knows he is taking those steps and he's not afraid to because he knows he can come back. He is a true Jedi. The dark side can not tempt him. But what of all those other Jedi in the Temp
  15. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    But in saying that those other than Yoda and Anakin aren't complete Jedi, I dont mean that the Emperor is a complete Sith either. The Emperor abuses his powers with the Force but just as much as the Jedi in the Temple do. You could say the Jedi unknowingly are doing that but it's to the same effect. It'd more correct to say the Jedi are ignorantly abusing the Force. They have a set of mandates they abide by, apparently. How cab they honestly say they abide by the will of the Force if their main concern is a mandate?

    Isurus the White
  16. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    All good points. I think you are quite right that it's the Jedi's unquestioning fear of the dark side that has made them so weak (notice that the one to bring balance to the Force, Anakin, was someone who was able to transcend dark side/light side distinctions and just do what needed to be done?). Perhaps Yoda and Obi-Wan have finally seen the error of their ways in the OT when they tell Luke he must face Vader, and symbolically the dark side within himself, before he can claim to truly understand the Force.

    It's also important that the Sith (or at least Palpatine) are very flawed at that time as well. Palpy is an awful Sith lord! No matter what his practical goals are, it's completely heretical for him to authorize construction of a Death Star capable of killing billions, since the very Force he depends on comes from life.
  17. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    Perhaps Yoda and Obi-Wan have finally seen the error of their ways in the OT when they tell Luke he must face Vader, and symbolically the dark side within himself, before he can claim to truly understand the Force.

    I completely agree with that thought. There is also a huge misconception about the OT. For some reason, I often hear people mention that for Luke to become a Jedi, he had to destroy Darth Vader and/or the Emperor. I saw another post somewhere where someone questions if Anakin failed his 'test' since he didn't defeat Dooku whereas Obi-Wan passed his test by killing Lord Maul. I have no idea how anyone could think a Jedi's final test is to defeat a Sith Lord. If that were the case, which it is not, then obviously no Jedi for the 1000 years the Sith were thought to be extinct could become Jedi. Thankfully we can now more clearly see that Luke's test, like any Jedi's, was to confront his fear of Vader and the Emperor AGAIN. Obviously Yoda knew that Luke's first meeting with Vader didn't calm his fear of Vader but instead opened a whole other aspect. Vader being his father. I highly doubt, though, that Luke has matured to a full Jedi by the end of Epi 6. But those final events were his first steps towards the final goal. As has been pointed out in many threads, by now, Anakin is the Jedi who returns in Epi 6.

    Isurus the White
  18. BigBossNass1138 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 5
    *Blinks*

    *Blinks again*

    :eek: It's back!!! My favorite thread, thought long-lost, has risen phoenix-like from the ashes of obscurity! Ah Isurus, 'tis good to see you again. :D We need to see if we can find Adali and bring him back here as well. :)

    I'm too tired now to make an intelligent post here, but I will return soon. I'm so glad that this thread is back. I look forward to lots more fascinating discussion here.
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