the force (light and dark)

and no the light side iis not afraid of the end, it accepts the end and the nature of all things which is to end

 

I second BigBossNass' move that we leave the midis out of the debate!
And I love the phone thing, too! I agree 100%!

Now, let's get back on track!

It's been a while since the Sith came here to set us straight. I wish they'd bring some opposing views in here again.

 

After listening to this interesting thread i think i have something to contribute. First I believ that the force came into existenst when life came into existenst and became more complex as life became more complex. Then much as the endosymbiotic theory we formed a relationship with the MC's living within us. I believe that the MC's can be reached either by fear,anger, aggresion and other emotion or by passive will and calm concentration. The diff between the two realy has no absolute implications except that using agressive emotions corrupts people and grows on people to eventually control them. Eventually anger consumes and guides you. You lose all rational thought and you become the misguided slave to your emotions. Using passiveness and calmness however promotes rationalism and peace. the only absolute diff i see is that the (light) side leads its weilders to protect the innocent and insure the freedom and progression of society, while the (dark) side drives its users to seek power, control, and destruction. THe dark side seeks to fight and that is why it seeks to detroy the light side bc the war between Jedi gives them the eternal struggle they so need to nurture there emotions and aggresive natures.

 

Yes, someone find Darth Kaoken and get him over here. I adressed some comments toward him a while back and he never responded.
We need the Sith perpective for this debate.

 

Well, lets see. Yoda tells of a story how a Sith Lord made a faster, possibly safer path to a lake. We all know he's talking in metaphores here. His eyes open wider and he adds a last little bit about how, when asked, all those who have travelled both paths to the lake admitted that the lake was not even the same lake. That going the long, arduous path, brought you to the lake you were hoping to get to where the short path brought you somewhere else.

So, sure, the lake is the Force, and the way to get to the Force, now, has a long path and a short path. Not only that, but Yoda suggests, most likely in an attempt to persuade Qui-Gon that the long path is better, that these paths lead you to 2 separate places.

Lets assume there is such a lake. Most lakes have a beachfront or an edge to the body of water. If this story was valid, I'm sure a Jedi or Sith would have buried something in the sands....travelled the other course, and dug to see if what was buried was there. If it wasn't, it doesn't neccessarily mean it's not the same place. Something may have dug the treasure up before they could. But it would be very possible that they would find, again, what they buried. Proving whether or not they arrived at the same place. This is not stated in that snipet from CoD. And I doubt Yoda mentioned anything about that sort of thing.

If I am also to think that the destination is, in fact, different, then a question that must arrise is....where does that shorter path lead you? I tend to view that snipet as saying, yes, you do end up at the same place, but you experience less in getting there. The way to experience most would be to travel both paths. For there are things along the shorter path which those who have travelled the long path will never see. And vice-versa. After travelling both roads,you do see both destinations....and you have freedom to choose from each path, how you manage things.

I'll write in more, later...heading to work, now. Oh...and I do consider myself of the Sithly type. But, as you may have noticed, I'm more for a balance of both sides.

Isurus

 

I think there is no absolute difference between the jedi and sith. You cannot judge the force like morals like that, there is no innate longer, shorter path, just two different natures. the only absolute we can judge the 2 natures of the force is its impact on humanity and its user.

 

Isurus;

I don't think you're listening properly to old Yoda.

Again I have to remind you all what the Jedi Master said - the short path did NOT end up at the lake.

And you, Isurus, choose to ignore the Jedi Master's claim that once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny. I don't believe, like you do, that you can take both roads just like that - and end up as wiser than all who just stick to the light. I have never seen anything that leads me to believe that taking the dark path gives you any rewards in the long term. Quite the contrary - those who take this path might at best hope to end up at the same point as Yoda, but only after inflicting irreparable damage on themselves and the entire galaxy.

The Sith believe that there is a shorter and easier path to being one with the Force, or maybe more correctly - to control and dominate. The ultimate failure of the Sith is that this assumption is entirely wrong. There is only ONE path that leads to the lake on the other side of the forrest - the way of the light. The dark side may lead you to believe that it offers you greater strength and a quicker and easier path to your goals, but it deceives you. You do not get to the lake. Ever. Not by the powers of the dark side. You don't use the powers of the dark side - they use you. This is the ultimate mistake of the Sith. Blinded by their lust for power they believe in the temptations of the dark side, and they are all deceived.

Means to an end? You don't reach the end by the means of the dark side. It's the ultimate illusion...

The short path did NOT lead to the lake. This is very important.
It's what Yoda understands, and also Luke. And it's what Anakin failed to understand.

 

The crucial mistake you all are making is that there is no end. THe means are the end. THe end is not to be one with the force it is to LIVE as one with the force. As in Zen buddhism it is said that to practice Zen is enlightenment itself. You do not use the force to get anywhere. A Jedi has no goal in mind he has the moment in mind and practices for the sake of doing that activity of practice rather than working towards some goal. As soon as you work to some goal your practice becomes impure practice. The path you take is the end. By taking a certain path you are completing a diff "end" its not really an end. The practice of following the life of living as one with the force is an end unto itself on its own.

 

For fun, I'll take a stab at Yoda's story some more.

First, you have to take into consideration what Yoda is and what he is trying to acheive by telling this story. Yoda is a Jedi trainer and he told this story to a former apprentice or maybe Qui-Gon was his apprentice when the story was told. Yoda is not trying to push Qui-Gon to become a Sith Lord...instead, he's trying to show Qui-Gon that the Jedi path is correct. Second, I dont know about any of the rest of you, but I seem to recall some things from RotJ. It seems Ben and Yoda didn't exactly tell Luke the true story about what happened to his father. Ben shrugged it off as looking at things from a different point of view. But we all know that Ben really told Luke a fib...but a fib with reason. The story Ben told Luke, originally, was to inspire Luke to become interested in confronting the man who killed his Father. The fib served a purpose. But, apparently, Jedi do tell fibs to suit their needs.

In the story Yoda tells Qui-Gon, Yoda chooses to tell Qui-Gon that there are those who have traversed both paths and survived. And they found that the long path brought them to fruition. Now, we know that Yoda also told Luke that the dark path is tempting but once you step down that path, forever will it consume your destiny. So, at one time, he's saying there are those who have gone both paths, and at another time, he's suggesting that once down that dark path, you're screwed. But knowing Jedi fib to suit their needs, Yoda could have just as easily chosen to tell Qui-Gon that noone who has taken the short path has ever reached the lake. He could have told Qui-Gon that the short path leads you nowhere. Instead, he chose to say there are those who have survived both paths. To me, that shows that Yoda is trying to whet Qui-Gons appetite. Maybe Yoda knew that Qui-Gon is a Jedi who would not just be satisfied by Yoda's words. Qui-Gon would, in fact, be intrigued by the short path.

To me, taking both roads would mean the most experience. A well rounded Force-wielder would be one who has tried the short path, and seen its downfalls, and then went the long path, and found an even greater splendor than those who have only taken the long path. I see Qui-Gon as one who has taken steps down that short path but obviously has taken the long road as well. I see Luke as the same. You can see that his mind is/has ventured down those quick and easy paths, but in the end, he found balance.

And now to view the paths which can be taken. Yoda says there are those who have traversed both paths. Ok ok...we all know Jedi fib to lead someones thoughts one way or the other but lets assume there are those who have, indeed, done what he suggests. To accomplish the task you'd say there are basically 3 ways to get to the lake. Normally, I'd say 4, but the 4th option would have been the short path. And going by Yoda's story, he's saying that option will never get you to the lake. So, the first option would be just to take the long path. Bam, you reach the lake. Done.
Second option would be to take the short path, fail, and then try the long path, and succeed. The lake is arrived at, and thats that. The third option would be to try the long path, reach the lake..yawn, and then take the short path. Now wait. Yoda only spoke of those who have made it to the lake and who have traversed both paths. So that removes those who have traversed only the long or short path. It only leaves those who have gone the long way first then gone the short..and those who have gone the short way first and then the long. But, those who have traversed the long path and then came back and went into the shorter faster path...would they not be the dark ones? If asked, those who did arrive at the lake going the long way but are now taking the short path would never admit that they're making a mistake by taking the short path, would they?
The only people who Yoda would, then, get that testimony from would be those who have tried the short path, turned back, and then taken the long road.
And at lifes long end, they wou

 

I think you have distorted Yoda's view and are exercising your own poetic liscence to suit what you want to be the truth. Everythng Yoda said was designed to spark something psycologicaly in Qui Gon and Luke. Instead of telling them the nature of the force, he lets them arrive at it on their own which provides for a more stable ego and Jedi. All this talk of lakes and paths is irrelevant, there is a fundamentle simple truth behind every comlpexity in the universe. That is the nature of things. There is no innate distinction in the paths but only there effect on the user and the galaxy.

 

I do agree with Danlow's saying that Yoda's story was not ment to be taken literaly, and it's purpose was to make the listener think about the differences between the paths of Dark and Light. Yoda is always speaking in metaphors. He teaches not by example, but by guiding a student's thinking so that he comes to the conclusion himself. Yes, Yoda uses the classic certain points of view to twist the direction the student thinks in, but that is because Yoda is trying to teach something specific. He's trying to make a point. And in this case, he's saying that the Dark Side seems like a quicker route to your destination, but it will ultimately fail you.

LordIsurus, you say that Qui-Gon has trodden both paths, to a degree. I don't feel that this is right. Qui-Gon is not a follower of the Dark Side, he never has been. He serves the same side of the Force as the Jedi council, he just serves it a different way. We have agreed that he is more in tune with the living Force, concentrating on the moment, letting the Force guide him. He does not obey the restrictive rules of the Council, because he feels they are unnesecarry, that if someone follows the will of the Force closely enough, they will not need these rules to stay on the Light path.

LordIsurus said: those who listen to Yoda's words really should be more careful. We all know how well Jedi can fib. Never listen to a Jedi without having a box of salt handy. Ah, the contentious "certain points of view" question. Obi-Wan did not lie to Luke. What he told him was true, from a certain point of view. The same goes for Yoda's story. Of course it is from a certain point of view. The point of view of the Light Side. How would the Dark Side version of the story go? Perhaps the Sith who took the short path never did come to the peace and serenity of the lake. Maybe he found something better, and neve saw the need to come back. That is why he was never seen again. A certain point of view. What you have to do is not so much take a grain of salt, but to be aware that everything a person says is subjective. You have to understand other points of view. You have to be able to see from other people's.

 

danlow, as I have stated before, I do believe in something more balanced.

BigBossNass1138, the stab I took at Yoda's story was, in a way, trying to see things from the opposite side than the story was intended. I haven't read CoD so I dont know if it states how Qui-Gon understood the story. Most likely, as he grew more experienced, the stories meaning changed and continued to. Where someone may view the story to mean the only option is the long arduous path, its possible, as you state, that some may view it as the short easy path is forever not reaching the goal...but that, in turn, could mean to that person that forvever will you be striving for a goal. That if you arrive at the lake, taking that long path, you might not be where you wanted to be anyways. Oh well

I did state that I felt what Yoda told Qui-Gon, as with Ben telling Luke, were things that weren't neccesarily truths as much as things that were meant to be said at the time.

The reason I have always singled out Qui-Gon as an example of something different than the Council is because of the simple fact that the Council does not allow him to reside with them. Obi Wan says, matter of factly, that Qui-Gon would be on the Council except for his radical views. But you must agree that his radical views are more pliable than laws which the Council, most likely, abides by. You know, well enough, that by the time of ESB, Yoda and Bens views of the Force have changed. No longer do they spout about midichlorians, for example. This says to me that they have come to realize that the Councils views must have been incorrect or slightly askew. Why else would their views change?

Even you Jedi supporters can not tell me that you see the Council as a united entity. Hopefully you can see that there is something amiss in their society. Call it ignorance or what you will, somehow they've let a Sith Lord, and a very very negative one at that, stand right beside them and not be aware. The Council has become lazy and now the society will suffer from it. If the Jedi were more attentive to things, especially the guy living next door, they would never have lost control. Or are you now going to tell me that Yoda does not fib ever, except when he admits that "the dark side clouds everything".

A couple pages back, I think I did state one way in which the Jedi way could only be one with the Force. But, let me show you a line I read a while back.


But, the way I see it, is that the only way to be one with the universe, and not allow a being to be balanced partially with order but allowing and acknowledging their chaotic behaviour, is to realize that there is no chaos. To realize that there only appears to be chaos. That, in fact, everything is so orderly, that those events which seem chaotic are all part of a greater picture. That every decision made is orderly. I even extended that thought and said when Yoda and Mace look at each other, it's not of arrogance, but they're thinking the same question. "Are we the only 2 Jedi left?"

Going that route is certainly not easy! But thats just one of two options I can allow myself. The other option, as I've said before, to accept that while there is a lot of order, in this universe, chaos is present and on the increase. Not just in discussion or thought but in reality. Ask any thermodynamics student and they'll be happy to tell you how there seems to be an unpredictable nature to things. And, if there is order and chaos present in the universe, which we live in, then to truly be at one with the universe/Force, you have to admit that within your own self, you have some order <light side, you could say> and some chaos <dark side...> . To me that says it'd be wrong to shun out that dark side, totally. For to do so would not only be ignorant but it would be unnatural. And, if you do something unnaturally, good or bad, it has to be balanced out somewhere; at sometime; in one way or another! Go see Changing Lanes sometime. The point is illustrated beautifully.

I'd like to know, especially from the Jedi supporters, who thinks the

 

Firstly i think that the ligt side is not only a longer path to the lake but you cover the entire area of the approach. THe ligt side is longer bc people who choose the light path dont take a path they cover the entire area. The drakside is shorter bc it makes one thin path to get to an end. The problem is that that path doesnt want to end. The dark side does not seek to live as one with the force it seeks to sustain itself. THe dark side needs constant nurturing of its aggressive nature, sith will never reach their goal or contentment. Its a reaction where the chaos of the reaction will increase. The dark side is the natural and evolutionary way of things, anger, aggresion those are evolutionary responses and like all things in nature they will degrade until the chaos has no order. The light side is the unnatural way of things, it is the logical, passive, calm way of things and therefore its user willnot degrade. I mean look at the emperer, at the end he starts to resemble a reptile, and Yoda is still looking like a normal watever he is. The light side will reach the goal of living as one with the force and it will increase the order of its user. As its user uses it more he becomes calmer and more in tune with reality and the force.

 

The dark side is the natural and evolutionary way of things, anger, aggresion those are evolutionary responses and like all things in nature they will degrade until the chaos has no order. The light side is the unnatural way of things, it is the logical, passive, calm way of things and therefore its user willnot degrade.

If you're saying that the light side, the Jedi side, is everything unnatural and the dark side, the Sith side, is everything natural, then I'm certainly a Sithly type. And no, I dont mean Sith-like in the sense of the Emperor. I mean Sith like in the sense that not everybody holds with the same ideals as the mile-high Jedi Council club. Someone who can see it's falling apart.

Isurus

 

What i mean by natural is that the sith do not seek to live as a more evolved or advanced lifeform. They are still running around in the jungle tryin to satisfy their emotions instead of moving beyond that primitive state to a state of logic and reason. I dont mean rugged, the jedi are plenty rugged. They wear simple robes. Its not a matter of living naturaly its a matter of seeking to move beyond your innate predispositions. The sith do not seek to rise above the ordinary evolutionary process to a "higher state of existence." While the Jedi seek to live outside the everyday evolution and ascend to a higher plane.

 

Isurus;

I'm a bit bewildered by the way you keep equaling Sith to someone who thinks the Jedi Council isn't quite doing as well as they could... Are you really serious about that? Personally, I find that to be a harsh comparison, and a quite unfair definition of Sith. Unfair to the Jedi, that is. Not agreeing with the Council and their Jedi Code 100% isn't quite enough to make you a Sith, imo. Actually, I don't think that has anything to do with it at all. Sith don't simply disagree with the rules. They play a whole different game. The game of gaining personal power and dominating all beings you possibly can. Not the game of opposing the Jedi Council because the Council isn't working for the good of all beings. With the Sith it's me, myself and I, and how to dominate all life.

 

Well, Adali, I've always thought there was something amiss in the Jedi Council. And so, I am at a point where looking at other possibilities is good. Now, I do certainly realize that what has been shown of the Sith in the movies is very negative and totally about a top to bottom power system. I won't say I like some of those ideals either, but what I do see them for is a group who were upset with the unbalanced system which must have existed.

I'm more for a balance between order and chaos but a term has not been deemed for them. If looked at from one view point, I suppose you might see that as what the Jedi are meant to be like, but thats a far cry from what I have seen from the Jedi Council. So, whether I associate that term of balance to Sith or Jedi really isn't that important.

I guess it really just comes down to how you feel about balance. What is a balanced system and how to acheive it.

Isurus

 

I am also interested by your description of yourself as Sithly, Isurus. The Sith are not meerly a group who have disagreed with the Jedi council over a small matter. The philosophies of the two groups are diametrically oposite. The Sith seek to use the power of the Force to dominate, subjegate and destroy. They feel that the Dark side of the Force is the only way to do this. They belive that the ends justify the means, and the atainment of power over others is the only ends worth pursuing. They seek to strengthen the Dark Side by inflicting pain and fear on others. They belive themselves to be superior to all other beings.
The Jedi seek enlightenment, and peacful co-existance with all. They do not use their power to dominate, though they certainly could if they wished. They use it to help others, to seek justice. This is the core of what it means to be a Jedi. This is why the fallen Jedi who would one day become the Lords of the Sith left the order. NOt because they got fed up or annoyed with the council, if there even was a formal council in those days, but because their desires were the embodiment of everything the Jedi try to fight. And you describe yourself as a Sith? Other people here do as well. Do they honestly belive that they are superior to every other person here? Would they willingly go to any means, inflict whatever pain and suffering the needed to, manipulate and use whoever they had to, just to gain more power? Are they completely and utterly ruthless, full of disdain for the ideals of the Light Side of the Force? Do they see the Jedi supporters amongst us as weak, and only worthy of extermination? I doubt it. They may say they are, but I chalenge them to prove it. And you, Isurus, certainly do not embody the ideals of the Sith.

You disagree with the council, and distrust their motives. You are not alone in this. As my past posts will attest, I feel the same way. We have discussed at length the council's reaction to the comming of the Chosen One, how they were afraid, and how they rushed to protect themselves and their own interests. How they impose prohibitvely strict rules on the order. How they are bogged down in ritual and procedure, not unlike the Sennate and Republic government to which they have become to closely tied. The Jedi lack any true independace. They are a glorified police force, and according to EU, at this point in history, come under the control of the Judicial Department, the Republic's interplanetary law enforcement agency. They have lost sight of what the Jedi once were. Does feeling this make me a Sith? Does it make Qui-Gon Jinn a Sith? I think not. Qui-Gon belives that if you follow the will of the Force, you do not need restrictive rules to keep you on the light path. He feels that the council is blind to the true will of the Force, which is why he disobeys them. He is not disrespectful of them, or the acomplishments of those who make it up, he simply feels, with some justification, that they are not in tune with the Force. They worry to much about themselves. Qui-Gon says himself "I will do what I must, Obi-Wan." He lets the Force lead him at all times. HE is open to it, and lets it guide him in everything he does. He is one of the few who still recognise the original spirit and purpose of the Jedi.

For even with the council, and the rituals and proceedures, the rules and regulations, the heart of the Jedi Code is still alive. That is what I belive in. That is what makes me a suporter of the Jedi, the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, despite what has happened to them. But the only way all of it can be corrected is to tear it down and start again. See my previous posts for more discussion of the Balance to the Force issue, and how and what Anakin's destiny manifested itself in.

You are not a Sith, Isurus. You sound to me like one of The Lost Twenty. In an article in the new issue of Holonet News, it talks about Count Dooku, and how he is one of the only 20 Jedi to have willingly resigned their commision and left the order. (This obviously does not include fal

 

firstly qui gon does not take a different path then the council he just is a firmir believer in the living force, that is not going a dufferent path. Secondly the council and Yoda were right there was danger in training the boy. Qui gon was wrong so anakin would not have been trained if it wasnt for Qui gons liberal approach and then maybe Palpatine would never have gotten a new apprentice and all this would have been avoided.
Secodnly who says the council has lost sight. The council knows whats going on. What ritual? The reason the council is a glorified police force is bc that is what it is. The Jedi protect the Innocent, "to Serve and Protect the innocent"- Thats the police moto is. The Jedi use the force to protect the galaxy and uphold a balance of freedom. You call Sith rule balance. Subjugating people in order to satisfy the need to nurture your aggresive nature is the quest for balance. I would say that you are extremely misguided. The reason the Jedi have order and dont run around like vagabonds is bc of temptation and keeping an eye on each other. I mean look at the EU with Kyp Durron running around and all the chaos and hotshots. The Jedi have to be limited to a certain degree bc that is the price of living in an open society. If you want hotshot cops doing watever they want on a whim than go to communist china. It is not the jedi that are misguided. The reason why the Republic is falling is bc of politicians and the little fact that a Sith Lord is the supreme chancelor. If you read shadow hunter you see that the emperor can hide his presence from the jedi using force abilities. No the Jedi are not misguided they just have to let ordinary people do things on their own to a certain degree and just protect them from extra-evolutionary threats.

 

Hi everyone! This is certainly an interesting topic, but the whole concept of light & dark side of the force is being a bit overstretched here, although I'm not saying that a good discussion should be overlooked, mind you ... this is just my two cents.

Its quite simple really; the force is all around us, and it is neither good nor evil in the first place. The force is simply "is," alive and never stagnant.

It is only the choice of an individual that decides whether to use the powers of the force for good or evil purposes. Hence both the dark and light side exists only in our minds (as many have already pointed out here). That's it.

 

Well, I think I'm going to delve into some of these books after I see AotC. I'd like to read about this Lost 20 group, for sure. I'll definately check out holonet news after I see the movies as well.

I'm not too concerned about titles, really. There are various reasons why I do prefer associating with the Sith type but not exactly a Sith like that Emperor fellow. But whether or not you're associated to Jedi or the Sith, I'm more interested in the final goal. And that goal, to me, is balance. It doesn't matter which side I start from. As long as, in the end, that balance is reached. The way I see it is that the Council and the Sith are constantly moving apart from each other. In that way, they're maintaining balance. But you know that's not the only way to maintain balance. Instead, the Council and the Sith could move towards each other maintaining balance along the way. At the end, converging at the midpoint, and ultimately and forever keeping balance. At that point, whether you call yourself a Sith or Jedi would be irrelevant. For you would be one and the same.

And BigBossNass1138, I see you do hold to one of the, most likely, old Jedi Codes. That being one with the Force/Universe. But to say the Sith are wrong and the Jedi are right is not being fair, at all. You hold an ideal with the Jedi which the council has put on the back burner. But you have to see that the Jedi Council is the Jedi. Just as much as those 2 Sith Lords are considered to be the Sith Order. You hold to a Jedi code which Qui-Gon, as well, saw his fellow Jedi get away from. You cant say that the Sith went more to the right and the Council went more to the left but the Jedi Code remained in tact. Because the Jedi Code is what the Jedi Council adheres to. Thats the whole problem. The heart of that Jedi Code should define the rest of that Jedi Code. And that heart is to be one with the Force/Universe. Somehow, that spirit has been left to the wayside, and as you said was on Holonet News, Jedi are more like the police, now..and when, ever, have the police been considered One with the system? And furthermore, as the Jedi continue to ignore this, they are, in essence, moving further away from the balance point. Which, I know you hate to hear, is balanced by the Sith becoming even more powerful.
Nothing happens by chance!

And to help understand my association with the Sith. Well, think of me as a Sith as you would Qui-Gon to the Jedi. I'm sure the Emperor would have toasted my butt long ago just as a Jedi Council member would have voted Qui-Gon off the Council! Qui-Gon is a Jedi who is closer to the true nature of the Force than the Council is. I like to consider myself in the same vane. But from the Sithly side. But, as I said before, I'm pretty sure we're headed towards that same goal....balance.

Isurus

 

What are you talking about Qui Gon? He is a Jedi and is very well respected among the council members. He is just a bit more of a rogue. He fully believes in the council. THe difference is that the council believes that the Jedi must do what is in the best interests of the citiens of the galaxy and he thinks that the council should follow the forces directoin a bit more. Its not really as big a schism that you make it out to be. But as I have said 5 times already and has recently been repeted. The force is what you make of it. THere is an energy field and 2 ways to control it. The man you are will determine the intuitions you recieve from the force. The force tells Yoda that anakin is dangerous since Yoda is a man that has to be careful since he is in such a high position. Since Qui Gon is a more free flooating man he just recieves intuitions to flow with things. THere is no proper way to go. Except that Yoda was right and the galaxy suffered for it.
And the Jedi are supposed to protect the innocent. They have responsibilities. If they dont care about the citizens of the galaxy and just want to live as one with the force then they should become a monk and just sit and meditate. THe Jedi want to live as more than just one with the force they want live as one while helping the citizens of the galaxy. And the sith represent pure evil. Their goal is domination and they do this just bc they are aggresive. Its almost a immature goal.
Then to address your balance delusion. The balance you seek will be found in the situation where no one uses the force and just normal citizens of the galaxy exist bc there is no innate obtainable balance. There is no balance of right and wrong. THings are as they are. And even if u believe that there is some balnce then the the prequel time is quite balaced, there is the light jedi council and there are dark jedi and the 20 and then there is regular crime all over the place so there is plenty of balance if your speeking of a middle equilibrium that light and dark cross out.

 

hello all - I have read all of this thread and would like to applaud you all on your ongoing pursuit of knowledge of the force -

I would like to give my thoughts on a few things:

- It has been expressed a few times, but I think it is extremely important in the grand scheme of things to acknowledge that QUI GON WAS RIGHT! Anakin did - in ROTJ - bring a new balance to the force... The Council (specifically Yoda) opposed Anakin's training, because they foresaw that many lives could be lost and great disaster could arise from it THey felt the possibility of a great disturbance in the force, similar to what Obi Wan felt in New Hopw when the Death Star was tested....

Their foresight was confirmed - so in essence YODA & QUI GON WERE BOTH RIGHT... (From their own point of view).. Qui Gon was in touch with the force b/c it told him that training Anakin must be done to restore balance to the force. He was right, but it is also painfully true that Yoda foresaw and FEARED the results...

Let me say that again - yoda FEARED Anakin's training..."Fear is the path to the dark side" Contradictory, don't you think? That's just it - the Council's fear clouded their judgement in training Anakin. What Qui-Gon understood was that Anakin HAD TO BE trained as a Jedi - he had to turn to the dark side - ultimately however - HE HAD TO PROVE THAT ONE COULD COME BACK TO THE LIGHT...The Force demanded this of him

i have more stuff (I am here to stick up for the Jedi Council) but I'll save it - sorry if i did't get more deep but this is my first post...I am open to debate and I hope we keep this thread going!

 

I agree that the council's decision was clouded, and even that it was probably clouded by fear. However, I also wonder if part of Anakin's fall to the Dark Side is due to him having an inexperienced teacher. I mean, Obi-Wan had only just passed the training and now he's taking on a young, very gifted student. I'm sure we'll find out more about this in AotC...

 

Yoda did not fear anakins training he sensed fear in anakin. The council wasnt afraid of anakin but they had to aknowldge the truth that he was dangerous. Its not fear if you act on a threat. Its prudence. If someone comes to kill you and you respond did you respond in fear? It depends. If you act under emotion it is through fear but if you act on rational thought and deliberation it is prudence not panic. The council was acting on an intuition and not that they feared anakin but that they hav to considerthe safety of the republic and the order.