the force (light and dark)

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by darth_kaoken, Apr 2, 2002.

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  1. danlow913 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 1
    I must disagree, firstly before you have a philosophy about a subject you must be experienced with the subject. People dont right philosophy on the nature of our existence when there 12 even if they are mature. They simply dont have experience with our nature. The jedi might have mastered discipline but not in the force before they discovered the force. They were likely not aware of the dual nature of the force when they encountered it. We all use the dark side in our daily life. WE use emotion to rile ourselves up and we use pride to compensate for our inadequacies. So it would seem that probably the Jedi initially so nothing bad of using emotions to be stronger until later.
    and lord isurus when i was talking about music to get through a workout i didnt mean distraction. I meant listening to the Rocky song and getting so energetic and emotional that you do the workout more quikly and with more ferver. We all do this. Some of us do this in extremes and in small matters. For instance we use things for spiritual inspiration, we listen to music, watch a favorite speech in a movie, and when were done were all pumped up and ready for action. The extreme is like when an dictator sends propaganda through the media spreading lies and telling emotional stories like fake masacres to rile up suicide bombers. For instance I use to watch the scene in ESB of Yoda telling Luke "A jedi must tell the deepest commitment", u all know that speech. It used to rile me up and get me all proud and excited. Then I started practicing zen and became calmer. Then I realized the irony of my action. I was using a speech where Yoda warns luke of the darkside in order to rile myself up emotionaly and make me feel proud. Talk about misusing something. A Jedi has a dual nature, one is to live in the moment and feel not think. The other is to be constantly rational and logical. A jedi isnt supposed to listen to the Rocky song and then kik some butt, but rather see what must be done and do it calmy. Not to rile onself up to do a task but rather see the truth of the situation and act. WE all do things like the dark side. We listen to rap music(which i have nothing against)to make us feel all strong and angry. We think of this hot girl before we work out to get us all ready. Rather we should realize the truth of what we are and accept it and not try to change how we feel, and we should think before we workout that in order to obtain this girl and be in shape i must do this. Without the emotion. All these examples prove that there is darkside in all of us and that is commonplace. Following this logic we would assume that since its easier to do a workout with the rocky song rather than just realizing the urgency of the situation, that the darkside would have been mastered first because as we see in everyday life-"Beware of the darkside, anger fear, aggresion, easily they flow, once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your life." sorry if i messed up the quote.
  2. danlow913 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 1
    what you said(Garth Maul)abt the race is correct but I am just thining about how the jedi could have come abt first when the dark side is so much easier to weild.
  3. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    What I was saying, danlow, was that the Jedi had the discipline to Master the Force.
    Obi-Wan had never encountered a Sith before TPM, yet he did have the discipline to defeat him.

    I don't think it's obvious that those first Jedi would go to the dark side. Quite the contrary, those Knights would likely be so completely mindful of everything they were attempting to do that they were possibly less in danger of falling to the dark side than more arrogant individuals, like Anakin. And I also said that I don't believe none of them failed. I just don't agree that "the dark side must have been mastered first" just because the dark path is quicker and easier. Imo, this is a false assumption.
  4. Dark-Jedi-Horus Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    Right, just right.
    Now somebody said the truth, which nobody wanted to hear.
    From now on the Sith will have to hide no more.
    May the Force be with all of us!!
  5. danlow913 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 1
    The flaw in your reasoning adali is that you assume that these early jedi were aware of the nature of aggresive emotions and the dark side. THey probably did not think that it was bad, they probably thought it was just the nature of the force. We all use emotions daily and think nothing of it. You dont think that when you motivate yourself emotionally that your on the path to evil, you believe your overcoming something and triumphing with the might of your will. Rocky did not seem like he would become evil and he didnt bc he never took it that far but he definitly was not completely rational. Its not a matter of discipline rather its a matter of bieng aware.
  6. danlow913 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 1
    and regarding defeating a sith in TPM without ever encountering one, firstly Jedi are trained to be ready in any event. What good would a Jedi be if he could not adapt to new threats. Secondly, every Jedi no matter how controlled encounters the dark side. They encounter it within. We all battle with our natural aggressiveness especially when we are young and beggining our training. Some of us submit, some never advance and stay in between. Jedi are people who have overcome, so no Jedi has never encountered the dark side. The fighting styles are similar, both Teras Kasi, so its not a matter of unfamiliarity. Jedi are taught to be passive. But dont confuse passivity with inactivity. Jedi are accepting but they act. A Jedi is rational and sees what he must do and does it, therefore a jedi would not be stunned by sith even if he had not encountered one before. A Jedi would realize that a sith is in front of him and act without a fear of something unfamiliar. So the mastering of the dark side first has nothing to do with the TPM encounter and defeat of the sith.
  7. BigBossNass1138 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 5
    It's an interesting theory, Danlow, that the use of the Dark Side came first. I suppose it's possible, but it doesn't seem right to me. These proto-Jedi, these philosophers and monks had discovered something that trancends the normal world, this source of power and enlightenment that they named the Force. But, knowing nothing of its nature, they would not have have simply jumped in to see what would happen. For many years, they had been seeking innner peace and enlightenment through traditional means. This would make the elders in the order perfectly placed mentaly and philosophically to use the Force wisely, and to understand how it should and should not be used. I belive they would have slowly and carefully studied it, learning what they could and could not do. They would have found that only certain individuals coule feel and manipulate it, and so they would have sought out more Force users, and gotten rid of the non-users. Obviously, they would have been excited by what they discovered, the power they found. The older, wiser monks would not allow this emotion to rule them, but most likely the newcommers who had been recruited in would have marveled at what they could do. They would have worked to gain power, they would have ended up fighting amongst themselves, realising as they did that anger could intensify their ablilities. In short, they would have fallen to the Dark side. The elders would have seen this, and come to understand the duality of the Force, of the hugely important distinction of HOW you use it in determining how it affects you. These first Dark Jedi may have been the reason the Jedi first took up arms, seeking to protect the galaxy from the terror of the Dark Side. After this first step, they would have decided that they should continue using their powers for good, recruiting new members, but this time supervising their training to ensure that they did not stray.

    As for the Sith, yes, Garth Vader, EU information says that the race of the Sith was enslaved by a group of Dark Jedi, and eventually the name of the Sith became synonymous with these Lords and their teachings, rather than the race itself.

    And I am very much looking forward to Episode 2 related discussion. Specificaly, the extention of our discussions on the politics of the Council and the Senate and the Sith. What will happen now that the Council know there is a Sith Lord in their midst? I see them looking over their backs constantly, but still remaining blind to the truth that Sidious is playing both sides to perfection, pitting the armies against each other to give him the excuse he needs to build up his military might and declare himself emperor. Very interesting...
  8. danlow913 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 1
    I think ur theory bigbossnass is the most probable. The sith most probably were the first force users to take up arms. THe Jedi prob took up arms in responce to the sith aggression. Once they prevailed they prob continued to be knights bc of the need for protectors of the peace without raising an army that might be abused.
  9. BlackPool Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2000
    star 4
    I don't know if this was stated before, but both Yoda and Obi-Wan both state very clearly that THE FORCE IS CREATED BY LIFE not the other way around. The force is probably short for Life Force. Originally Lucas called it "The Force of Others" What does all this mean? It's essense is a byproduct of life, but it's will comes from life it'self.

    By extension, this means that it must have taken millions of years for enough generations of life to come and go for the force to get powerful enough to be weilded by the wizards and warriors who would later become Jedi and Sith. I mean by implication with each passing generation, the force gets a little stronger.

    I tend to think that the "will of the force--the Living Force" is comprised of all those past generations of both sentient and non sentient life. There has always existed those who are evil and those who are good. So the Dark Side is comprised of all the evil people who ever lived and the Light Side is comprised of all the good people who ever lived.

    The common will of The Dark Side is chaos and destruction while the common will of the lightside is harmony and piece.

    So what I'm getting at is that sure the Dark Side is more seductive, easier to fallow and was probably explored first. But since this would be during a time when the force was not as powerful or as complete as during the movies, then the ramifications weren't as sever as they are during the days of the Republic. But they were probably enough to warrent a code of conduct that one day resulted in the Jedi Order.

    Just as a side note if what I am saying is truly what Lucas has in mind of The Force, then The Force is not universal. It has finite paremiters around where Life exists. So if you were to go far enough out into the unvierse, then The Force would taper off into non-existance. But then some of it would never taper off completly because of you.

    Have I really wierded anyone out yet? Anyway, that's George Lucas's Force as I see it.
  10. danlow913 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 1
    I think your interpretation of the force is highly unlikely. The force is probably an energy distortion created by life. The distortion is stronger with sentient life and even stronger with force sensitive life. In ROTJ Luke realizes that he endangers the mission bc he is easier to sense. The reason for this is probably that he creates a stronger distortion. I could see that there are 2 ways to channel your distortion. THrough peacful will and aggressive emotion. By a Jedi altering this distortion and channeling it he can distort space time much as gravity does. A Jedi can probably feel the distortion of space time via his own pervading feild. I think that it is unlikely that when a Jedi dies his force remains and adds to a cummulative force. Following that logic the more force weilders there are the less powerful they would be. Although that would be a good reason for there bieng 2 sith. So as not to diminish the power of the sith. But I think that the sith are 2 in order to iliminate fighting among the sith. I think that when Yoda means life creates it he doesnt mean its a buy product that we deposit and leave. I think Yoda would mean that it is the distortion of space time by life and not some energy we crap out rather that we carry with us.
  11. BlackPool Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2000
    star 4
    I don't think what your saying is in disagreement with my theory at all. You are mostly speaking to the mechanics of the how the force works and is used. I am refering to what the force IS.

    >>Following that logic the more force weilders there are the less powerful they would be.<<

    I don't think your fallowing my logic at all here. In fact I'm saying just the oposite. What I'm saying is that a life once it exsists will always exist in one form or another. And the more life there is, the stronger the force becomes.

    And I think 'byproduct' was the wrong word to use and I apologize for the confusion. What I am trying to say is that the way Yoda describes the force, he seems to mean that all life while each form being individual and distinct, also emmits this engergy field that connect/binds/glues all other life together. And ofcourse that energy field is The Force.

  12. BigBossNass1138 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 5
    I just want to adress your point about what happens when a Jedi dies, Danlow. You say that when a Jedi dies, his energy spreads out and just becomes a aprt of the huge field that permeates the universe. I think this is true in most cases.

    But there seems to be a way for a Jedi to strengthen his very essence, to somehow prevent himself from dispersing like that. To retain his identity and be able to appear as a ghost, like Obi-Wan.

    I don't have time to go into greater depth, but I do agree with you in the general case.
  13. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    Something has been on my mind since seeing AotC. It pertains to Lord Tyranus informing Lord Sidious that the Force is with them. He means the Force is 'with' the Sith. Earlier in the film, Yoda and Mace talk about the Jedi's diminished use of the Force and Yoda even goes as far to say that the only person who'd know about it is the Dark Lord of the Sith.

    And Lord Tyranus' line reminds me of Vaders admission to Tarkin that Obi-Wan is aboard the Death Star and that the Force is with him.

    There are some who think all Sith are deceivers and liars and such. But this set of events seems to suggest otherwise. If all Sith are greedy and manipulative, Vader would never admit to anyone that the Force is with the other guy. If Sith are liars and manipulaters, then Vader would have told Tarkin that Obi-Wan was there, but he'd be of no concern. I'll admit that the Emperor is a deceiver and manipulater but I dont think all Sith are. Vader most likely isn't and I'm not sure about Maul. Tyranus does seem to be. I imagine it's possible Vader went that route with good intentions.

    The other thought those lines raises is that the Force can be selective or mayb persuaded. Sure, you could say that Darth Tyranus was just saying "The Force is with us" akin to someone saying "the sun is shining". But the mere fact that Vader admits to Tarkin that the Force is with Obi-Wan shows that, indeed, the Force can be behind one or the other fact-geme..(I mean faction/regeme). Why else would a Dark Lord of the Sith say the Force is with their adversary? Maybe the Sith have ways of sensing who the Forces tide is behind.

    Isurus
  14. danlow913 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 1
    I disagree with the statement that the more life the stronger the force rather I would think that the more conscoius and focused the stronger u will be with the force. And I disagree that the force gets stronger over time. The force is most likely a constant force around us rather than an increasing energy field. I do not think that the first jedi were able to control the force bc it was weaker rather they learned to control through experience. Also in the scheme of time in the universe the time from the first jedi to current is so miniscule in the history of the universe, so i doubt that the force could change so much in such a limilted amount of time.
  15. BlackPool Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2000
    star 4
    >>I do not think that the first jedi were able to control the force bc it was weaker<<

    I never said that.
  16. danlow913 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 1
    So what I'm getting at is that sure the Dark Side is more seductive, easier to fallow and was probably explored first. But since this would be during a time when the force was not as powerful or as complete as during the movies, then the ramifications weren't as sever as they are during the days of the Republic. - Black Pool

    Following your logic the force would have been weaker in the beggining and the dark side would have been easier to control.
  17. BlackPool Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2000
    star 4
    1. I also said that the dark side tends to control and enslave. That Palpatine is a slave to the will of the Dark Side not the other way around. I dont' mean he's a zombie or anything, but at his level of closness to it, I think the pull of the dark side to do it's will could be likened to an sexual urge to the 10th power. But it's an urge of the soul rather then the body. But unlike Vader who I'm sure fought many times to resit and failed, Palpatine revels in it.

    2. My logic is that in the beginning the dark side was first corrupting the peace and harmony of worlds rather then the entire galaxy. It wasn't as damaging in a universal way because the force was not as expansive as it is now. In other words I'm thinking that the force is not omnipresent but it's power is constant. So the bigger the engergy field of the force gets, it's influence is greater, but it's actual power remains the same.

    Does that make sense?
  18. danlow913 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 1
    I dont think area has anything to with it. The dark side is always a problem, regardless of whether there are sith. THe dark side is fought in every person and that is the main threat of the dark side. If light jedi never fell to the darkside then the sith would not be strong. THe sith is made up of fallen Jedi. THis corruption has nothing to do with area rather with whats inside people.
  19. BlackPool Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2000
    star 4
    Again, where there is life, there is the force, where there is the force, there is the dark side. That's all I have been saying.
  20. danlow913 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 1
    One thing in AOTC i think needs discussing is when anakin talks to padme about atachment. What doesnt make sense to me is how a jedi could love without bieng attached. If you love someone you are attached, if your not attached to someone you cant really be in love with them. So how can Anakin justify love. Also De-tachment is a big Zen concept and Zen talks about acceptance, passiveness, and indiference. In the movie anakin seems to lack all of these. He cant accept his place in the jedi order and his mothers death. He is not passive about Dooku and charges him. And hes not indifferent as we see he is very much emotionally involved with Padme and as a whole he is emotionally involved with everything. Anakin doesnt look like he is in control. Twice in the movie we see Yoda troubled by what he senses in Anakin. When anakin's mother dies Yoda feels his pain and when he argues with obi wan about picking padme up. Taking in all these signs you would think the counsel would have acted already and realized he was in danger of falling and realized that anakin wasnt responsible enough to employ jedi powers.
  21. BigBossNass1138 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 5
    Yes, Anakin's "Obsessed Stalker" routine is quite chilling.

    I'm not certain about the attachment thing either. The motivation for the no-love rule is obvious. Obi-Wan tells Anakin "do not allow your personal feelings to interfere with the mission." This is the cruz of it. A Jedi must act with clarity at all times. The fate of millions may rest on one Jedi's actions, and if he or she is distracted, it could go very badly. Forbidding love is one way to reduce the possible distractions.

    Anakin mentions compassion and unconditional love for all, which is valid as well. A Jedi must love and respect all life, because he serves to protect that life.

    All in all, I'm not certain as to quite what Anakin meant in that scene. I'm going to go and look at the script to see exactly what he says, and get back to you. A fair guess might be that he was just trying to sweet-talk Padme, and that what he had to say was not exactly valid.
  22. danlow913 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 1
    I would agree with you bigbossnass bc i dont see how attachment could be forbiden but love bieng accepted. compassion is not the same as love. Compassion can be without attachment while love cannot.
  23. BlackPool Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2000
    star 4
    I think the difference is that there is Agappe (sp?) love= love your neighbor and there is matromonial love which is what is "forbiddon" by the Jedi. In the above scene, it's clear to me that Anakin is talking about the first kind which I'm sure the Jedi strongly encourage.
  24. danlow913 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 1
    I dont think so, I think anakin wants padme to get the hint that he loves her and that he is allowed to eventhough he isnt and is just justifying wat he wants.
  25. BigBossNass1138 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 5
    Ok, as promised. The dialogue goes like so:

    PADME: It must be difficult, having sworn your life to the Jedi. Not being able to visit the places you like?or do the things you like...
    ANAKIN: ...or be with the people that I love.
    PADME: Are you allowed to love? I thought it was forbidden for a Jedi.
    ANAKIN: Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion ? which I would define as unconditional love ? is central to a Jedi?s life. So you might say we?re encouraged to love.

    Ok, so it looks to me as if Anakin's twisting the meaning. He's saying that attachment and romantic relationships are forbidden, but that compasion is central to the way of the Jedi, and this is his justification for the "encouraged to love" remark. As I surmised, it's all mainly about sweet-talking Padme in this scene.
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